Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[jack]

They own the garage and the parking lot. 

[Jernigan]

They will be doing work on the garage to automate the payment collection and validation as they have with their other garages.   This would potentially eliminate the need for the surface lot at the building because without an attendant or automated system, they've needed that lit for visitors.    

[jrs2]

20 hours ago, UngaBungalow said:

That was definitely the idea. I stopped by to take photos before it opened and I caught a police officer just standing in the parking lot looking at the space and he looked at me and said, "it's just so open ... there's nothing here to stop a drive by" which kind of floored me. He was visibly shaken. 

Well, if that did happen, God forbid, I guarantee you it wouldn't be from an "organic" cause; rather, from interests attacking our society making it look like there's lawlessness, anarchy, and/or chaos, etc.  Just like that tragedy in Charlottesville, where one group got a permit to demonstrate, another group was bused in (without a permit) to incite violence, while the mayor ordered police to stand down.  And then people defaced the Lincoln Memorial.  And it looks like there was a Craigslist ad, again, for paid protestors.  so, the bottom line is that we can't prevent this stuff from happening.  You just gotta keep your eyes open and try and stay out of harm's way- and stop living in denial (whomever this may apply to), that this stuff is actually happening in our own backyards.

2 hours ago, Jernigan said:

They will be doing work on the garage to automate the payment collection and validation as they have with their other garages.   This would potentially eliminate the need for the surface lot at the building because without an attendant or automated system, they've needed that lit for visitors.    

too bad they aren't doing more...

[Jernigan]

9 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

Well, if that did happen, God forbid, I guarantee you it wouldn't be from an "organic" cause; rather, from interests attacking our society making it look like there's lawlessness, anarchy, and/or chaos, etc.  Just like that tragedy in Charlottesville, where one group got a permit to demonstrate, another group was bused in (without a permit) to incite violence, while the mayor ordered police to stand down.  And then people defaced the Lincoln Memorial.  And it looks like there was a Craigslist ad, again, for paid protestors.  so, the bottom line is that we can't prevent this stuff from happening.  You just gotta keep your eyes open and try and stay out of harm's way- and stop living in denial (whomever this may apply to), that this stuff is actually happening in our own backyards.

too bad they aren't doing more...

Really?!   I hope you don't plan on posting useful info because my finger is on the ignore button.   I don't care what your politics are but that was a hot mess of a response that wasn't needed.   Not to mention untimely and inaccurate given the Kissimmee police shootings.  Don't think that guy was paid by some third party.

[jrs2]

6 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Really?!   I hope you don't plan on posting useful info because my finger is on the ignore button.   I don't care what your politics are but that was a hot mess of a response that wasn't needed.   Not to mention untimely and inaccurate given the Kissimmee police shootings.  Don't think that guy was paid by some third party.

Who are you, the owner of the finger on the pulse of the public consciousness?  Did I mention Kissimmee?  And my response was a commentary for people to keep their eyes open because this stuff is also going on.  It has nothing to do with politics.  I don't know what "ignore" on UP means, but my point is simply this:  You go to an event, for whatever reason, and all of the sudden, things get heated and escalate- but they escalate for reasons other than what people, like you apparently based on your post, wish to acknowledge, and you get caught in the crossfire as a result.  I'm not defending anyone; it's just a commentary to tell people to keep their eyes open when they're out.  If you don't want to keep your eyes open when you're out, no skin off my back, and there's no need for your hostility.

[aent]

10 hours ago, codypet said:

^^^This.  I've been on the receiving end on that situation a couple of times and when it happens you're really floored thinking "I wasn't doing anything wrong".  Each incident I was wondering why the officer is accusing me of this when there's no crime being committed.  I held a lot of resentment to the Orlando Police Dept because pretty much until Pulse happened.  I felt they handled that situation better than I had been giving them credit for because of my experiences.

I think the intention of most every police officer is right. The problems are systemic and from above those in the field. Officer safety trumps everything else. Even during Pulse, while the officers naturally started doing the right (and heroic) thing of going after the shooter, they were pulled off after several minutes because it was determined to be too dangerous to go after this guy, and they needed swat, and he slowed down. While they were waiting for swat and a robot and a strategy so they can ensure that no officer gets hurt. He did continue to kill people, and it went on for hours (reportedly at a slower pace as the night went on, but it still continued). Obviously during Pulse, we know that no officers were killed, despite the fact over 100 others were shot. While the initial officers who did go in and try to get the shooter were clearly heroic in their actions, whoever decided to call off that effort because of a fear of officer safety was not (and we cannot blame the officers out there, as I'm sure many wanted to go in and help, but were ordered to stand down, and they clearly have to follow those orders)

I'd really like to see an end to this Blue Lives Matter movement. I feel its having the opposite effect from what anybody wants... almost nobody on either side wants the police to be hurt. That is not a position anybody is taking, and nobody is really fighting against the officers. The entire movement is based on something with no truth at all, and has fought to make police officers a different class of citizen even more than we already had. People overwhelmingly support the police, even in areas where they feel they're unfair, racist, etc... its rare to see someone NOT support the police (which is generally a great thing).

Yes, there is some danger to the police job. The Kissimmee police shooting had nothing to do with transparency of the police department. People attempting to hurt the police are almost entirely either mentally ill and aren't getting needed treatment and likely ANYONE around them is at risk (again, look at taxi drivers, cable guys, etc), or are wanted and feel they have nothing to lose by trying to keep their freedom by any means necessary. And Blue Lives Matter is not at all about either of those problems.

[prahaboheme]

7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

Well, if that did happen, God forbid, I guarantee you it wouldn't be from an "organic" cause; rather, from interests attacking our society making it look like there's lawlessness, anarchy, and/or chaos, etc.  Just like that tragedy in Charlottesville, where one group got a permit to demonstrate, another group was bused in (without a permit) to incite violence, while the mayor ordered police to stand down.  And then people defaced the Lincoln Memorial.  And it looks like there was a Craigslist ad, again, for paid protestors.  so, the bottom line is that we can't prevent this stuff from happening.  You just gotta keep your eyes open and try and stay out of harm's way- and stop living in denial (whomever this may apply to), that this stuff is actually happening in our own backyards.

too bad they aren't doing more...

You would profit from doing research before you post. So much of what you state is factually false and refutable. Not just with this example but so many. You have good points too, when related to Orlando urban planning and development.

Clearly you have a passion for a greater Orlando. Polluting your message the way you do because of thinly veiled political preferences is a distraction. 

[jrs2]

6 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

You would profit from doing research before you post. So much of what you state is factually false and refutable. Not just with this example but so many. You have good points too, when related to Orlando urban planning and development.

Clearly you have a passion for a greater Orlando. Polluting your message the way you do because of thinly veiled political preferences is a distraction. 

"factually false" vs "refutable" and the concept of "doing research"

All of your statements above are aimed at attempting to discredit anything I post or have posted.  I'm sorry, but last I checked, you are not the authority on facts.  Have you spoken to tourists from overseas about what goes on there?  Have you gone to Europe and spoken to citizens there about what goes on there?  Have you watched interviews with the very people who push these agendas around the world, or is your depth of knowledge based on watching the pundits on the networks?  Give me examples either in the Coffee House or a PM or here for everyone to see of what I've been wrong about on any of my posts.  Because until you do, you have no place to state that I've been factually false.

Again, the purpose of my post wasn't to make a "thinly veiled political preference" on an issue.  You've said that before.  It's to wake some of you up who are sleeping to not believe everything you see in the news, that some of these events that they push as being organic are nothing of the sort, or, are at least helped along by external forces, which makes them more likely to occur and innocent bystanders to get caught in the middle.

The comment from that officer about how open the OPD HQ design is was the impetus for my post.

[JFW657]

13 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

"factually false" vs "refutable" and the concept of "doing research"

All of your statements above are aimed at attempting to discredit anything I post or have posted.  I'm sorry, but last I checked, you are not the authority on facts.  Have you spoken to tourists from overseas about what goes on there?  Have you gone to Europe and spoken to citizens there about what goes on there?  Have you watched interviews with the very people who push these agendas around the world, or is your depth of knowledge based on watching the pundits on the networks?  Give me examples either in the Coffee House or a PM or here for everyone to see of what I've been wrong about on any of my posts.  Because until you do, you have no place to state that I've been factually false.

Again, the purpose of my post wasn't to make a "thinly veiled political preference" on an issue.  You've said that before.  It's to wake some of you up who are sleeping to not believe everything you see in the news, that some of these events that they push as being organic are nothing of the sort, or, are at least helped along by external forces, which makes them more likely to occur and innocent bystanders to get caught in the middle.

The comment from that officer about how open the OPD HQ design is was the impetus for my post.

I hate stepping into the middle of this and I know I shouldn't, but I have to point out that you are the one who needlessly introduced a partisan political POV into the discussion. 

A comment was made regarding an OPD officer's concerns about the safety of their new building. Your response was...

"I guarantee you it wouldn't be from an "organic" cause; rather, from interests attacking our society making it look like there's lawlessness, anarchy, and/or chaos, etc.  Just like that tragedy in Charlottesville, where one group got a permit to demonstrate, another group was bused in (without a permit) to incite violence, while the mayor ordered police to stand down.  And then people defaced the Lincoln Memorial."

You clearly took a partisan political stance by bringing up politics, even though it was unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic.

I'm not berating you or pointing the finger of blame at or taking sides against you. I'm just pointing out the fact that dragging politics into discussions about architecture or advocating for one side over another in a political protest in some other city halfway across the country, is off topic and counterproductive to any conversation about urban development in Orlando.

Political commentary by either side, is something best left out of this forum.

[HankStrong]

Amen.  I come here to talk about projects in urban development.  Keep your politics out of it.  That goes for anyone.  Just shut it.

[John Hargrove]

I understand your desire, but politics is inextricably linked with development and urban planning. You can't disconnect GOP control of Florida's state government from the shutdown of the HSR initiative. You can't disconnect the politics from the planning. Even infrastructure is political at this point.

Unfortunately politics is a cancer in our society, because we have developed a system where everyone feels entitled to their own facts. It's completely self-evident to just about everyone that this is a problem that certainly didn't originate with conservative media, but was certainly MASTERED by the conservative media. I have spent the last 20 years watching the systemic distribution of misinformation on the right.

It's basically society-level gas lighting, in which I have spent 2 @#$!% decades losing my breath literally just showing people facts that conflict with their world view.

Liberals are full of crap too, but at least they have the decency to be bad at it. 

EDIT: And if people like @jrs2scare off people like @spenser1058, this board is screwed. I wont mince words here. I'd rather have spenser, regardless of the politics. Objectively his presence here is more valuable.

Edited August 25, 2017 by castorvx

[JFW657]

7 hours ago, castorvx said:

I understand your desire, but politics is inextricably linked with development and urban planning. You can't disconnect GOP control of Florida's state government from the shutdown of the HSR initiative. You can't disconnect the politics from the planning. Even infrastructure is political at this point.

Unfortunately politics is a cancer in our society, because we have developed a system where everyone feels entitled to their own facts. It's completely self-evident to just about everyone that this is a problem that certainly didn't originate with conservative media, but was certainly MASTERED by the conservative media. I have spent the last 20 years watching the systemic distribution of misinformation on the right.

It's basically society-level gas lighting, in which I have spent 2 @#$!% decades losing my breath literally just showing people facts that conflict with their world view.

Liberals are full of crap too, but at least they have the decency to be bad at it. 

EDIT: And if people like @jrs2scare off people like @spenser1058, this board is screwed. I wont mince words here. I'd rather have spenser, regardless of the politics. Objectively his presence here is more valuable.

While I am in 100% agreement with you on everything you said re: the inextricable link between politics and development, I think the fact still remains that it's possible to discuss urban development issues here, while at the same time, making it a point to steer clear of anything related to partisan politics or assigning blame or responsibility to one side or the other, just for the sake of maintaining a peaceful atmosphere and preventing the kind of long, drawn out, bitter off-topic battles that detract from the civility we enjoy here.

I include myself as well. I think I've been guilty on a couple of occasions in the past, of mentioning certain politicians or governing bodies controlled by a particular party, in a less than positive manner with regards to the effects of their policies, etc.

But I personally think it would be better for all concerned if, in the future, we just "don't go there, girruh-frens!!!".

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by JFW657

[jrs2]

9 hours ago, castorvx said:

I understand your desire, but politics is inextricably linked with development and urban planning. You can't disconnect GOP control of Florida's state government from the shutdown of the HSR initiative. You can't disconnect the politics from the planning. Even infrastructure is political at this point.

Unfortunately politics is a cancer in our society, because we have developed a system where everyone feels entitled to their own facts. It's completely self-evident to just about everyone that this is a problem that certainly didn't originate with conservative media, but was certainly MASTERED by the conservative media. I have spent the last 20 years watching the systemic distribution of misinformation on the right.

It's basically society-level gas lighting, in which I have spent 2 @#$!% decades losing my breath literally just showing people facts that conflict with their world view.

Liberals are full of crap too, but at least they have the decency to be bad at it. 

EDIT: And if people like @jrs2scare off people like @spenser1058, this board is screwed. I wont mince words here. I'd rather have spenser, regardless of the politics. Objectively his presence here is more valuable.

You are right about Rick Scott and I was one of the first to call him out on that and state my theories about FEC's involvement with his decision.  By contrast, Buddy is one of the biggest Dems out there and I've been behind him virtually every step of the way since he took office.

But on the media, that's the pot calling the kettle black, Castorvx.  The liberal media outnumbers the conservative media by a factor of 6-1 or more, and you complain about the effect of the 1?  I don't know how the "1" has the influence to perform "society level gas lighting" when the numbers are clearly on the other side.  You complain about peoples' facts yet you just stated you yourself show people your facts to prove your view.  What makes your facts right and others' not?  "Politics is a cancer":  I agree.

But don't be pointing fingers at me about "scaring off people."

I had a few disagreements with Spenser1058 in the past and got over it and that was that, and I have the utmost respect for his input and posts and point of view.  I had a few "need more info moments" with Prahaboheme and that was that.  Just because Jernigan decides to fly off the handle and paint what I said to be politically charged is flat out ridiculous.  And for Prahaboheme to state that I have "thinly veiled" political commentary is a stretch too, when I, and others have to bear overtly reading about things like how the City of Kissimmee should be given a pat on the back for signing onto the Paris Accord, and then talk about Progressivism as it applies to the restructuring of an intersection.  That being said, I still have respect for his posts as well, not because of his views, but because of why or how he has his views, based on things he's stated.  The process; I respect that.  And that includes JFW657 as well; we had a few disagreements in the past, but that's the end of that; end of story.  HankStrong made a comment before and I'm perfectly fine with it.

That being said, I think you all missed my point.  I gave my warning to be safe and the reasons for it, but nobody wanted to acknowledge my reasons for stating so.  Instead, some of you chose to complain and try to discredit it.  A simple "thanks" would've sufficed.  Instead, (and I can go on, but I won't).

Should I instead have said that the cops bring it upon themselves because of (fill in the blank)? Wouldn't that be a politically charged statement also?  I mean, seriously, for example, if I agree with an African-American eye witness in Ferguson, am I a racist because those specific facts don't mesh with somebody's general paradigm about police?

Or, is it simply a politically charged statement or stance, or called out as such, when you don't agree with it?

I think some of you need to realize that sometimes information is just information and nothing more.  If you are reading politics into it, then look in the mirror.

[JFW657]

jrs2, I think Spencer1058 actually defended the discussion of politics in The Coffee House in explaining why he's bowing out of the forum.

I think he's more critical of those of us who encourage staying away from politics than he is of those who bring it up.

I think it's wiser to stay away from the topic, but that's just my opinion and I am not the arbiter of forum decorum. So until politics is an officially verboten subject, people should just discuss whatever they want.

You included. 

[John Hargrove]

34 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

You are right about Rick Scott and I was one of the first to call him out on that and state my theories about FEC's involvement with his decision.  By contrast, Buddy is one of the biggest Dems out there and I've been behind him virtually every step of the way since he took office.

But on the media, that's the pot calling the kettle black, Castorvx.  The liberal media outnumbers the conservative media by a factor of 6-1 or more, and you complain about the effect of the 1?  I don't know how the "1" has the influence to perform "society level gas lighting" when the numbers are clearly on the other side.  You complain about peoples' facts yet you just stated you yourself show people your facts to prove your view.  What makes your facts right and others' not?  "Politics is a cancer":  I agree.

But don't be pointing fingers at me about "scaring off people."

I had a few disagreements with Spenser1058 in the past and got over it and that was that, and I have the utmost respect for his input and posts and point of view.  I had a few "need more info moments" with Prahaboheme and that was that.  Just because Jernigan decides to fly off the handle and paint what I said to be politically charged is flat out ridiculous.  And for Prahaboheme to state that I have "thinly veiled" political commentary is a stretch too, when I, and others have to bear overtly reading about things like how the City of Kissimmee should be given a pat on the back for signing onto the Paris Accord, and then talk about Progressivism as it applies to the restructuring of an intersection.  That being said, I still have respect for his posts as well, not because of his views, but because of why or how he has his views, based on things he's stated.  The process; I respect that.  And that includes JFW657 as well; we had a few disagreements in the past, but that's the end of that; end of story.  HankStrong made a comment before and I'm perfectly fine with it.

That being said, I think you all missed my point.  I gave my warning to be safe and the reasons for it, but nobody wanted to acknowledge my reasons for stating so.  Instead, some of you chose to complain and try to discredit it.  A simple "thanks" would've sufficed.  Instead, (and I can go on, but I won't).

Should I instead have said that the cops bring it upon themselves because of (fill in the blank)? Wouldn't that be a politically charged statement also?  I mean, seriously, for example, if I agree with an African-American eye witness in Ferguson, am I a racist because those specific facts don't mesh with somebody's general paradigm about police?

Or, is it simply a politically charged statement or stance, or called out as such, when you don't agree with it?

I think some of you need to realize that sometimes information is just information and nothing more.  If you are reading politics into it, then look in the mirror.

The reason I think it's partisan isn't because I disagree with it, it's because it's literally the exact talking points I see from every hard line right winger on Facebook or Twitter. You have said nothing original about Charlottesville. The alternative to what you said is definitely not "they brought it on themselves." Anyone who paints with that broad of a brush is a jerk too. The reality is that these arguments are extremely nuanced, and I don't take a "side". The police have an immensely difficult job. African Americans DO deal with discrimination. Police abuse IS an issue. And we DO owe the police a great deal of reverence for putting their life on the line. But that's not what you said -- you posted something I could just go copy and paste from any of thousands of Facebook comment threads. It's just copypasta conspiracy theories.

As for your point about the media, I'm interested in what you consider liberal media. This is a genuinely interesting thought. Because I consider liberal media to be: MSNBC, any of a number of totally failed left-wing radio shows, any of a number of successful left-wing podcasts. Do you consider NPR a liberal media outlet? CNN? Hell, Fox News (I've literally heard this.)? 

What defines a media outlet as liberal? Would love to continue this aspect of the conversation in the coffee house so others can enjoy the forum.

 

[aent]

Politics is really complicated, and I don't think discussing it is bad for the forum as long as its without the useless comments about how one party is at fault or the leader of another is an idiot and a baby. These people are all successful on both sides due to some higher level of intelligence... the top of either party are smart. Thats how they rose through the ranks.

Blaming the GOP for the failure of  the HSR without giving them credit for Sunrail being built (John Mica, R) or perhaps even some credit for the Miami-Orlando AAF route is unfair. It does seem likely that if the Tampa-Orlando HSR was built, the Miami-Orlando route would not be. Then the question really is, which route is better? Seeing the first private mass transit system in many years really excites me. A train from Orlando to South Florida, which has Tri-Rail and Metrorail and Miami and whatnot seems more exciting and useful then a train to Tampa, which doesn't have that infrastructure. Taxes are high enough IMO, and having a system self-sustaining and even profitable is an amazing thing. Sunrail so far has been very disappointing and seems really, really poorly managed. There are pros and cons to each side. I'm personally no fan of either side... so I try to look at each thing objectively. That should be the goal here in general and leave your "Trump is a moron" and "Hillary is a crook" behind.

[JFW657]

Politics is such a divisive subject.

We discuss it at our own peril and risk of bruised feelings.

I've always enjoyed the civility here. It's always been like a posh gentleman's club where arguing and anything beyond polite disagreement was seemingly unheard of. 

But hey, I'll keep tuning in and taking part either way.

Maybe there should be a separate politics thread or forum where all things political could be hashed out.

I dunno. Whatever.

[bulldogger]

On politics and recent events, I went to high school with the "alleged" Kissimmee cop killer, Glenn Miller.  Many of my Facebook friends have been posting about him and the blue lives matter side of things.  Many of my friends are military or ex-military.  That being said, most of my friends that are either military or blue lives matter types are Republican.  They are arguing with each other on whether this event is the time to get "political" and talk about PTSD or should we just support the cops and families affected without that discussion.  Not a single one of my friends (liberal or conservative) backs his actions.  It is a matter of whether this could have been prevented by better assistance to our vets by our VA or to not discuss the VA in this matter and leave it for another time.  And I apologize now for going on another tangent.

Politics will invade topics from time to time no matter the original topic.

[Jernigan]

On 2/16/2016 at 10:20 PM, Jernigan said:

From the February ARB agenda - a strip on Magnolia is being renovated to include a 2nd floor balcony.  Dramatic difference.  

http://www.cityoforlando.net/city-planning/wp-content/uploads/sites/27/2016/02/ARB2016-00003report.pdf

Permit finally issued for this 

[UngaBungalow]

10 hours ago, Jernigan said:

Permit finally issued for this 

wow, that took forever. cool project

[bulldogger]

I rented an office in that building.  Oh the horrors.  That cheap rent though.

[Jernigan]

20 N Orange getting a new sign/name...and RETAIL 

[jrs2]

16 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

20 N Orange getting a new sign/name...and RETAIL 

Does that say "Center State" Bank?

[JFW657]

So where's Wells Fargo going???

[jrs2]

5 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

So where's Wells Fargo going???

The sign is already gone, but I think they consolidated operations in the building on North Orange.