Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[metal93]

On 9/25/2017 at 3:38 PM, Jernigan said:

Demo permit was submitted for building on 68 S Ivanhoe next to the Doubletree.  Not sure what is there to demo.  

 

On 9/25/2017 at 3:44 PM, JFW657 said:

A few scraggly trees and a bunch of grass.

It's the historic WDBO building, a small 1947 Art Deco building. It's in a sad state - boarded up and painted a stealthy brown color so it just kind of hides behind overgrown bushes.  It has seen better days.

[gibby]

Oh, wow.  What a shame.

[tc01]

For some reason, today I have been having access to the articles in OBJ.  

[Jernigan]

Guys the headline on OBJ is big updates on Tremont Plaza - is that even still the project name now that it sold to Lincoln?

[jgardnerucf]

2 hours ago, gibby said:

Oh, wow.  What a shame.

Please preserve the concrete call letters piece!

[XpressEnterprise]

It's official: This downtown area is among C. Fla.'s ideal spots for Amazon HQ2

Anyone with a subscription able to shine some light what the article says? 

[Jernigan]

I think it's referring to Creative Village

[cwetteland]

1 hour ago, XpressEnterprise said:

It's official: This downtown area is among C. Fla.'s ideal spots for Amazon HQ2

The OBJ has touted almost every conceivable place to be the ideal spot.  They've done Tupperware, Lake Nona, Neocity in Oceola, and now Creative Village.  We should be a shoe in.

Keep in mind Amazon says $5bn investment, so given that Tremont is $81m were talking something like 50 Tremont Towers, or at least 20 updated and super modernized Sun Banks at $250m a pop.  I'm sure at a minimum we'd have to throw in 24/7 SunRail with an airport spur to any of the above locations.

[Jernigan]

I need to thank them again for putting up the paywall.   Saves me some brain cells each day 

[aent]

1 hour ago, cwetteland said:

The OBJ has touted almost every conceivable place to be the ideal spot.  They've done Tupperware, Lake Nona, Neocity in Oceola, and now Creative Village.  We should be a shoe in.

Keep in mind Amazon says $5bn investment, so given that Tremont is $81m were talking something like 50 Tremont Towers, or at least 20 updated and super modernized Sun Banks at $250m a pop.  I'm sure at a minimum we'd have to throw in 24/7 SunRail with an airport spur to any of the above locations.

The article basically says the Orlando Economic Partnerships is putting in a proposal with lots of choices, and listing the incentives each developer is willing to give for the sites. As I kind of guessed before, it almost sounds like they're going to be offering money for building in EACH spot, so if Amazon is willing, they could potentially take one incentive for going in Creative Village, another to Lake Nona for a separate building, with buildings spread throughout the metro, much like, say, UCF is.

Also keep in mind while Amazon is saying $5bn investment, the RFP says over 15 years... the amount of space they're saying for phase 1 is about the amount of space scheduled for Creative Village. Obviously, a LOT can happen over 15 years that changes their plans even if we were to get it... so to keep it real, you're bidding on getting someone who says they will build 1 Suntrust center per year for the next 15 years. Does still sound pretty amazing.

Also, I feel like I shouldn't say anything, lol, but I don't pay for it and stopped getting fresh articles for a while, but I seem to get them after a few weeks. Now the past week I seem to have access to everything immediately. I'm sure I didn't put my credit card info in, just a free account

[Jernigan]

Did Amazon leave it open that they'd even be interested in multiple sites?  That just seems like a crazy counteroffer if Amazon was looking for an urban campus with transit.  "We can't do that, but here's a great video spot about our regionalism!"

I still think our best pitch is Sand Lake Station.  Land + OIA + Freight + the realistic ability to take frequent transit on Orange Avenue and Sand Lake Road and upgrade it to Bus Rapid Transit or even light rail go connect this intersection with Dowtown, OIA and I Drive with <10 minute frequencies.

[XpressEnterprise]

Thanks for the info guys, I misread the title. I thought it was saying that creative village was a 'finalist'. Also, I found a way to read their articles without a subscription. Basically, it is doing the same you would to read an article on growth spotter. 

[sunshine]

how?

 

[aent]

10 hours ago, Jernigan said:

Did Amazon leave it open that they'd even be interested in multiple sites?  That just seems like a crazy counteroffer if Amazon was looking for an urban campus with transit.  "We can't do that, but here's a great video spot about our regionalism!"

Yes, they have. They did not say urban campus with transit. Here' Amazon's preference: "Urban or suburban locations with the potential to attract and retain strong technical talent  Communities that think big and creatively when considering locations and real estate options"

 

This is Amazon's requirements:

Proximity to population center 30 Miles

Proximity to International airport Within approx. 45 Minutes

Proximity to major highways and arterial roads Not more than 1-2 Miles

Close to major arterial roads to provide optimal access

Access to mass transit At site

Direct access to rail, train, subway/metro, bus routes

Building Requirements Initial Square Foot Requirement 500,000+ Sq. Ft. Phase I (2019)

Total Square Foot Requirement Up to 8,000,000 Sq. Ft. Beyond 2027

Edited October 3, 2017 by aent

[alex]

I worry about the requirement for "locations with the potential to attract and retain strong technical talent." To me, that reads like they're looking for somewhere "cool." If I was a "strong technical talent" and could choose between places like San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Denver, Austin...or Orlando's Sand Lake Road, I think the choice would be clear. When I show off Orlando to out-of-towners, I avoid our suburbs, Lake Nona, and our malls like the plague. Personally, I think semi-urban, inauthentic new-construction in the suburbs, connected by a slow, infrequent diesel train is the opposite of what tech talent is looking for. 

Now, a site downtown (Creative Village / Sentinel site) with a high-frequency light rail connection to the rest of downtown, Winter Park, and the airport wold be [kisses finger tips like an Italian]. 

[XpressEnterprise]

1 hour ago, sunshine said:

how?

 

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[codypet]

Creative Village with the Lymmo and it proximity to LCS and Sunrail might just be enough.   They're just saying mass transit, nothing says it has to be a light rail.   Creative village with its proximity to a brand new I-4, LCS, Sunrail, and 30 min access to MCO, 10 min access, to ORL, and 45 min access to OSI as well as a blank slate for the campus and surrounding village might be ideal.  You have countless parcels in Paramore to build, the former Amway Center, mid-town including the Sentinel Blocks, Amazon could conceivably build a town around their HQ on the existing infrastructure.  UCF pumps out engineers and computer science majors like a fountain now, so young talent could easily be found.

[sunshine]

If Orlando can get it, that is great, but if I am Amazon, I would pick Miami before Orlando (For Florida). I would pick Austin before Miami. Logically, I would guess that they want a place in the Eastern Time Zone so they can maximized their work time and also pick a state with no income tax.

[aent]

5 hours ago, alex said:

I worry about the requirement for "locations with the potential to attract and retain strong technical talent." To me, that reads like they're looking for somewhere "cool." If I was a "strong technical talent" and could choose between places like San Francisco, Seattle, New York, Denver, Austin...or Orlando's Sand Lake Road, I think the choice would be clear. When I show off Orlando to out-of-towners, I avoid our suburbs, Lake Nona, and our malls like the plague. Personally, I think semi-urban, inauthentic new-construction in the suburbs, connected by a slow, infrequent diesel train is the opposite of what tech talent is looking for. 

Now, a site downtown (Creative Village / Sentinel site) with a high-frequency light rail connection to the rest of downtown, Winter Park, and the airport wold be [kisses finger tips like an Italian]. 

While the vast majority of people at a site called "Urban Planet" are going to prefer urbanism, and from an urban POV the CV is the best Orlando has to offer that meets their requirements right now, I think its unfair to present Lake Nona in that light. Its not like, say, Avalon Park, but more like, a brand new, early stage Winter Park or Celebration. They're real destinations, and Lake Nona's developer has been successful at making the area "cool". While its obviously still early on in its development, I've brought a lot of out of towners through Lake Nona and they're without an exception impressed by it and think its "cool". Yes, those who I show it to who prefer urbanism wish this was built as infill and closer to the core, but it is what it is, a lot of the things in Lake Nona would not have located in Lake Nona without the vast amount of land they acquired.

Unfortunately Amazon didn't really give enough details to really know what direction they're leaning it at all. But the problem with every city you mention is most believe they are looking for an eastern time zone for HQ2 (except NYC, but thats likely too expensive and not gonna pony up the incentives they want). If the eastern time zone analysis is wrong, Texas is the obvious choice. If not, I'd say Orlando has a good shot with the likes of Atlanta and the northeastern cities. I don't see Miami having a strong enough technical talent.

[alex]

1 hour ago, aent said:

...They're real destinations, and Lake Nona's developer has been successful at making the area "cool". While its obviously still early on in its development, I've brought a lot of out of towners through Lake Nona and they're without an exception impressed by it and think its "cool". Yes, those who I show it to who prefer urbanism wish this was built as infill and closer to the core, but it is what it is, a lot of the things in Lake Nona would not have located in Lake Nona without the vast amount of land they acquired...

I agree, Lake Nona deserves more credit than I was implying. The restaurants there are great (and "cool"), there's some sense of innovation, and of course the research/education capacity is top notch. But, in addition to its non-existent transit, I've been super turned off by Lake Nona since the latest plans were released. It's essentially an outdoor mall / office park combo. I'm not getting my hopes up for more than a Winter Park Village situation—but without the proximity to downtown Winter Park. It might (eventually) meet Amazon's criteria, but definitely doesn't give Orlando a "coolness" edge.

Lake Nona:

Downtown Orlando with a few of the major vacant lots highlighted (sorry for the weird graphic, it was the only aerial I could find with the OCSC stadium and CV streets on it): 

[dcluley98]

Lake Nona is a glorified strip mall/corporate park/healthcare park/suburban cul-de-sac monstrosity.  Nothing cool about it whatsoever. 

Edited October 4, 2017 by dcluley98

[Jernigan]

I have faith Lake Nona will end up being decent within its boundaries.   The amount of induced sprawl, though, is tragic.   Holy Narcoosee 

[sunshine]

Lake Nona is a tragic American "urbanism". Building a "downtown" by a single entity is nothing cool about it. Can it be cool? Look at PutraJaya, Malaysia, Hamburg's Haifen City, Bjørvika bay Oslo... Lake Nona is building a 80's product in the 20th century. NEoCity concept looks better than Lake Nona.

 

15 hours ago, alex said:

Downtown Orlando with a few of the major vacant lots highlighted (sorry for the weird graphic, it was the only aerial I could find with the OCSC stadium and CV streets on it): 

Looking at the map, downtown Orlando is really lack of green public space.

[alex]

1 hour ago, sunshine said:

Lake Nona is a tragic American "urbanism". Building a "downtown" by a single entity is nothing cool about it. Can it be cool? Look at PutraJaya, Malaysia, Hamburg's Haifen City, Bjørvika bay Oslo... Lake Nona is building a 80's product in the 20th century. NEoCity concept looks better than Lake Nona.

I was looking at the places you mentioned and one observation that struck me was the absence of parking garages. Obviously these developments are part of much larger cities—or, in the case of Putrajaya, intended to be a larger city on its own—but I'm still surprised how much of the Lake Nona town center will be low-rise buildings. Makes me thankful for Creative Village. But I agree about the greenspace situation downtown; I'm surprised that the Lake Nona masterplan doesn't make more of an effort to have a real network of parks.

Bjørvika Bay, Oslo (City Population: 634,293)

Hafencity, Hamburg (City Population: 1.763 million) 

Putrajaya, Malaysia (City Population: 88,300) 

Lake Nona, Orlando (City Population: 277,173) 

Creative Village, Orlando (outdated, but representative of density)

[jrs2]

I was in Denver.  They have two buildings there that resemble the Fifth Third Bank and Citrus Center, only taller and with different dimensions.  The Fifth Third Bank clone has the same or similar base, but it's 3-4 times the height.  The Citrus Center clone is rectangular, and taller.  I wonder if it was the same architects.  There's also one that looks like a 1960's-'70's apartment tower in Chicago.