Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[I am Reality]

6 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Pittsburgh has like 4k people living in its downtown. The downtown department stores and everything there are gone. They do have some new restaurants there and one small area there has a bit of nightlife but that is not a city to model our downtown after. And they have many large buildings.

Pittsburg is nationally-recognized as an industrial city that had transformed its into a high-tech powerhouse.  It has a dynamic economy with thousands of medical-research & tech jobs. It was voted the nation's Most Liveable city a few years ago. It is a city of ethnic (and many gentrified) neighborhoods.

[bqknight]

13 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Pittsburg is nationally-recognized as an industrial city that had transformed its into a high-tech powerhouse.  It has a dynamic economy with thousands of medical-research & tech jobs. It was voted the nation's Most Liveable city a few years ago. It is a city of ethnic (and many gentrified) neighborhoods.

Me thinks that you have a very interesting view on Orlando - and maybe that has to do with you living here your whole life. I'd prefer Orlando's downtown core over any other city in Florida. Orlando is GROWING, that's the thing. It's a NEW city that is finding it's way and that's what I think is so magical about it. Pun not intended. 

[popsiclebrandon]

I grew up there and my family still lives there. Pittsburgh's economy recovered because they had a leading university in 2 of the hottest growth industries in medical (Pitt) and tech (CMU). UPMC alone generates almost $15 bill a year and employs 80k people. We don't have that here and its not like it can just appear out of nowhere.

And for all that they are still shrinking in population. I love Pittsburgh and wish we had some of the food options they have here but its become highly overrated. There is a reason people continue to leave and it isn't just because they have the absolute worst road/transportation system in the country.

Orlando is working under a different setup than these old nothern cities and I hope they continue to embrace that. Sure would love more density but there has to be some realism about what downtown Orlando can be. Downtown UCF is going to be a catalyst for the next phase and I'm very excited to see it. I hope someone like Provost Whittaker takes over UCF, as he lives downtown and understands how important UCF and Orlando can be for each other.

[I am Reality]

2 minutes ago, bqknight said:

Me thinks that you have a very interesting view on Orlando - and maybe that has to do with you living here your whole life. I'd prefer Orlando's downtown core over any other city in Florida. Orlando is GROWING, that's the thing. It's a NEW city that is finding it's way and that's what I think is so magical about it. Pun not intended. 

I haven't lived here all my life. I have lived up North (3x), out West(2x) and in Atlanta.

[HankStrong]

4 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Orlando has the lowest per capita income of any large city in the country. We have a disproportionate number of low-paying tourism related jobs. How can you possibly argue with the facts?

I understand that Wikipedia isn't the most amazing reference, but for basic fact-checking it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas_by_per_capita_income

Some big areas with similar or larger populations that stand out with lower per-capita incomes:

1. Las Vegas
2. Los Angeles
3. Pittsburgh
4. Grand Rapids
5. Miami
6. Virginia Beach
7. Memphis
8. Buffalo
9. OKC
10. New Orleans
11. San Antonio
12. San Juan, PR

Facts.  How can you possibly argue with them?

 

[I am Reality]

28 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

I understand that Wikipedia isn't the most amazing reference, but for basic fact-checking it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas_by_per_capita_income

Some big areas with similar or larger populations that stand out with lower per-capita incomes:

1. Las Vegas
2. Los Angeles
3. Pittsburgh
4. Grand Rapids
5. Miami
6. Virginia Beach
7. Memphis
8. Buffalo
9. OKC
10. New Orleans
11. San Antonio
12. San Juan, PR

Facts.  How can you possibly argue with them?

 

You seriously cited Wikipedia?  (For anything?) 

Orlando has always been known as a low-wage city.  The Sentinel's Scott Maxwell wrote a series of columns how the low wages cannot support local families. 

I am optimistic we can bring in more professional, highs-wage jobs. I strive for something better.  You are apparently fine with the status quo.  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

 

[spenser1058]

The thing I have an ongoing debate with Scott Maxwell about (he's been banging the drum on this for a while) is that, yes, we do have an incredible amount of low-paying jobs.

That, however, is not exclusively a negative. Huh? Sure, pay should be higher. What it doesn't pick up, however, is that because (except during a recession and we have even skated past some of those, most notably in the early '80's), just about anyone who wants a job here can find one. Compare that with cities like Atlanta and Detroit where there are huge pockets of intractable poverty that are nearly impossible to get out of because there aren't enough unskilled jobs to go around.

In Orlando, it may take a lot of overtime initially and more than one job, but there is a path in the tourism sector for management (heck, WDW prez George Kalogridis started out as a busboy) that doesn't require a degree. In my family, both my sister (in management) and my brother (through skilled labor jobs) managed to thrive thanks to the Mouse with little or no college.

The construction economy, which is huge due to the area's growth, also has a path for those who start at the bottom.

We are also fortunate that our schools and colleges (especially OCPS' tech schools and Valencia) have some of the most wide open schedules of any educational institutions in the country. For that matter, OCPS is one of the most successful elementary and secondary urban systems in the country.

The relatively recent (for us) phenomenon of housing costs is not helping, but that's a national problem that needs to be addressed federally. Before the last crash we ran into problems with speculators (both foreign and domestic), but that has thankfully settled down somewhat.

Edited February 8, 2018 by spenser1058

[I am Reality]

47 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

I understand that Wikipedia isn't the most amazing reference, but for basic fact-checking it works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_metropolitan_areas_by_per_capita_income

Some big areas with similar or larger populations that stand out with lower per-capita incomes:

1. Las Vegas
2. Los Angeles
3. Pittsburgh
4. Grand Rapids
5. Miami
6. Virginia Beach
7. Memphis
8. Buffalo
9. OKC
10. New Orleans
11. San Antonio
12. San Juan, PR

Facts.  How can you possibly argue with them?

 

Previous Sentinel headline: "Number 1 in Tourism & Dead Last in Wages".

U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics - Occupational Employment (2016): Orlando had the lowest median pay among the country's 50 largest employment centers."

FL Politics: Orlando has had "the lowest median pay for several years running."

Don't give me Wikipedia or Grand Rapids.

 

[I am Reality]

10 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

The thing I have an ongoing debate with Scott Maxwell about (he's been banging the drum on this for a while) is that, yes, we do have an incredible amount of low-paying jobs.

That, however, is not exclusively a negative. Huh? Sure, pay should be higher. What it doesn't pick up, however, is that because (except during a recession and we have even skated past some of those, most notably in the early '80's), just about anyone who wants a job here can find one. Compare that with cities like Atlanta and Detroit where there are huge pockets of intractable poverty that are nearly impossible to get out of because there aren't enough unskilled jobs to go around.

In Orlando, it may take a lot of overtime initially and more than one job, but there is a path in the tourism sector for management (heck, WDW prez George Kalogridis started out as a busboy) that doesn't require a degree. In my family, both my sister (in management) and my brother (through skilled labor jobs) managed to thrive thanks to the Mouse with little or no college.

The construction economy, which is huge due to the area's growth, also has a path for those who start at the bottom.

We are also fortunate that our schools and colleges (especially OCPS' tech schools and Valencia) have some of the most wide open schedules of any educational institutions in the country. For that matter, OCPS is one of the most successful elementary and secondary urban systems in the country.

The relatively recent (for us) phenomenon of housing costs is not helping, but that's a national problem that needs to be addressed federally. Before the last crash we ran into problem with speculators (both foreign and domestic), but that has thankfully settled down somewhat.

Yes, low paying wages are a problem. A real big problem. And the public schools are literally joked about in other parts of the world. I have children in schools here and I am outraged at the level of complacency I haven't seen anywhere else (even when compared to areas with highly-unionized teachers).

It's seriously time to raise our game and start expecting/demanding better.

Low expectations are a cancer.

[HankStrong]

You do nothing to change the popular opinion of those in the legal profession.  Typical DB attitude.

 

Those aren't mindless facts, they are from the US Census.  I'm not going to jump on any Maxwell bandwagons.  I like his stuff sometimes, but sometimes he just tries to drum up hits with headlines.  And Grand Rapids metro area has 1.1 million people, that's a legit population center.

[I am Reality]

3 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

You do nothing to change the popular opinion of those in the legal profession.  Typical DB attitude.

 

Those aren't mindless facts, they are from the US Census.  I'm not going to jump on any Maxwell bandwagons.  I like his stuff sometimes, but sometimes he just tries to drum up hits with headlines.  And Grand Rapids metro area has 1.1 million people, that's a legit population center.

I am apparently being attacked because I think we can do better as a city.  If you think the economy is strong here (aside fro shear numbers of positions), I wish you well and must end it there. I know we can do better.

[WAJAS]

5 hours ago, idroveazamboni said:

I started a thread in here about Orlando Largest Publicly Traded companies and their are few and far between. Only 1 company made it on the Fortune 500 Darden and they are based in the suburbs.  I am Reality is dead right about the lack of corporations. The 2nd largest is Tupperware which is not even a fortune 1000 and they are HQ in burbs as well.  Name me some publicly based Orlando  based companies? 

The only other relatively major one I can think of is SEAS (Seaworld), and that isn't even located in Orlando proper.

[spenser1058]

The bottom line: Orlando is one of the fastest growing metros in the country. We're a place people want to live. 

There are tradeoffs in every city (I've lived in several and chose to come back to my hometown of Orlando because it was one of the few sunbelt cities whose downtown still had ready access for walking to legacy residential neighborhoods.

Diversity and acceptance were also important to me and the fact we've come from voting for Goldwater and supporting Anita Bryant when I was a kid to a perfect score on HRC's Municipal Equality Index this year matters.

I understand that it's not for everyone: if public transit were my first priority, I wouldn't have moved back (I used MARTA rail daily when I worked for the GA Legislature.)

I have to wonder, though. If I found Orlando as distasteful as you obviously do, why are you still here? In my lifetime, we've become most of what I was looking for in my community (as an urban econ  major, I had a pretty specific list.) If we hadn't, I would have left.

Our public transit may be lacking, but both our airport and interstates do a wonderful job of getting folks out of town with dispatch.

 

Edited February 8, 2018 by spenser1058

[bqknight]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I am apparently being attacked because I think we can do better as a city.  If you think the economy is strong here (aside fro shear numbers of positions), I wish you well and must end it there. I know we can do better.

You aren't being attacked for saying we can do better as a city. ALL of us are on here because we want to do better as a city AND we are doing better as a city, that's the point. You basically called Orlando dirt, that's my issue. I VERY much disagree with that statement. The "core" of Orlando is a young, vibrant area that is an amazing place to live. 

Seems like you don't feel that way.

[I am Reality]

15 minutes ago, bqknight said:

You aren't being attacked for saying we can do better as a city. ALL of us are on here because we want to do better as a city AND we are doing better as a city, that's the point. You basically called Orlando dirt, that's my issue. I VERY much disagree with that statement. The "core" of Orlando is a young, vibrant area that is an amazing place to live. 

Seems like you don't feel that way.

I am afraid you miscontrued my comments. I said that the area lacks high-income, professional jobs for a city of its size.  I also said the schools are poor.  I never said the Orlando is "dirt".  That is an total over-reaction to what I said.  I am surprised that more people are not agreeing.  Tourism is king here and there is little else.  Is that somehow offensive?  Should we not try diversify and find better-paying jobs?   Cities are not validated by tall buildings.  They are validated by strong economies with good-paying jobs.  

A few months ago, Amazon had 10k good-paying job openings in Seattle alone.  Austin  (similarly sized) has attracted hundreds of tech companies. Philadelphia was an industrial town & grew Comcast from nothing.  Atlanta is HQ for many Fortune 500 companies.  It is now the national leader in data centers (with millions of sq ft under roof). Tiny little Salt Lake City (yes, Salt Lake City) is a tech powerhouse. Denver is building a hyperloop. Dallas made itself a finance center to diversify beyond oil.  San Francisco just grew thousands of great jobs at Salesforce.  San Diego (similarly sized) is a military tech hub & headquarters of Qualcomm. Smaller Baltimore is a medical-tech leader. Smaller Columbus has half-dozen HQs for insurance companies. Smaller Memphis has FedEx and great research universities.  Similar-sized Charlotte is the banking capital of the South. Tech companies move to smaller Raleigh-Durham daily & Amazon HQ2 is still considering it. 

Amazon wouldn't even pass Orlando into the top 20. Think about that.

Where is the plan for Orlando?  We have the tourist attractions and horrible-paying call-center jobs. Is that really our fate?  We can gloss everything over, but that gets us nowhere.  Many of the cities I just listed are growing as well.  WE can do better.  Is that idea really that disagreeable? 

[JFW657]

4 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I am afraid you miscontrued my comments. I said that the area lacks high-income, professional jobs for a city of its size.  I also said the schools are poor.  I never said the Orlando is "dirt".  That is an total over-reaction to what I said.  I am surprised that more people are not agreeing.  Tourism is king here and there is little else.  Is that somehow offensive?  Should we not try diversify and find better-paying jobs?   Cities are not validated by tall buildings.  They are validated by strong economies with good-paying jobs.  

A few months ago, Amazon had 10k good-paying job openings in Seattle alone.  Austin  (similarly sized) has attracted hundreds of tech companies. Philadelphia was an industrial town & grew Comcast from nothing.  Atlanta is HQ for many Fortune 500 companies.  It is now the national leader in data centers (with millions of sq ft under roof). Tiny little Salt Lake City (yes, Salt Lake City) is a tech powerhouse. Denver is building a hyperloop. Dallas made itself a finance center to diversify beyond oil.  San Francisco just grew thousands of great jobs at Salesforce.  San Diego (similarly sized) is a military tech hub & headquarters of Qualcomm. Smaller Baltimore is a medical-tech leader. Smaller Columbus has half-dozen HQs for insurance companies. Smaller Memphis has FedEx and great research universities.  Similar-sized Charlotte is the banking capital of the South. Tech companies move to smaller Raleigh-Durham daily & Amazon HQ2 is still considering it. 

Amazon wouldn't even pass Orlando into the top 20. Think about that.

Where is the plan for Orlando?  We have the tourist attractions and horrible-paying call-center jobs. Is that really our fate?  We can gloss everything over, but that gets us nowhere.  Many of the cities I just listed are growing as well.  WE can do better.  Is that idea really that disagreeable? 

Did you happen to be outside day before yesterday around 3:30 pm and look eastward?

Which of those other cities has companies that do things like this in their backyard?

How about Lockheed Martin? Rockwell International? 

And as for your comments about our schools, you're wrong there too.

We are right about in the middle compared nationally.

I'm beginning to think maybe you're a paid agitator working for another city trying to sabotage Orlando!!! 

Not really. J/K. 

[dcluley98]

Forbes ranks Orlando #27 Best City in America for Business and Careers and #12 for Job Growth.  https://www.forbes.com/places/fl/orlando/

Seems about right for where we are at in hierarchy of American cities as the population and MSAs go. We are still a smaller SunBelt city but are growing rapidly, with population booming at almost 15% and job growth booming as well to keep up.  I certainly hope to grow well, and think we have done some things pretty well to try and positions ourselves for the future. Some big keys are Arts, Transit, and Green Space. We already mentioned education, with Downtown UCF and Creative Village above. We are working on that already and working on the others slowly but surely. At some point there may be a "tipping point" where all the baby steps get us up to a built momentum where attracting forward-thinking companies and creative and talented residents will snowball and the development will follow. At least, I hope so. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by dcluley98

[bqknight]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I am afraid you miscontrued my comments. I said that the area lacks high-income, professional jobs for a city of its size.  I also said the schools are poor.  I never said the Orlando is "dirt".  That is an total over-reaction to what I said.  I am surprised that more people are not agreeing.  Tourism is king here and there is little else.  Is that somehow offensive?  Should we not try diversify and find better-paying jobs?   Cities are not validated by tall buildings.  They are validated by strong economies with good-paying jobs.  

A few months ago, Amazon had 10k good-paying job openings in Seattle alone.  Austin  (similarly sized) has attracted hundreds of tech companies. Philadelphia was an industrial town & grew Comcast from nothing.  Atlanta is HQ for many Fortune 500 companies.  It is now the national leader in data centers (with millions of sq ft under roof). Tiny little Salt Lake City (yes, Salt Lake City) is a tech powerhouse. Denver is building a hyperloop. Dallas made itself a finance center to diversify beyond oil.  San Francisco just grew thousands of great jobs at Salesforce.  San Diego (similarly sized) is a military tech hub & headquarters of Qualcomm. Smaller Baltimore is a medical-tech leader. Smaller Columbus has half-dozen HQs for insurance companies. Smaller Memphis has FedEx and great research universities.  Similar-sized Charlotte is the banking capital of the South. Tech companies move to smaller Raleigh-Durham daily & Amazon HQ2 is still considering it. 

Amazon wouldn't even pass Orlando into the top 20. Think about that.

Where is the plan for Orlando?  We have the tourist attractions and horrible-paying call-center jobs. Is that really our fate?  We can gloss everything over, but that gets us nowhere.  Many of the cities I just listed are growing as well.  WE can do better.  Is that idea really that disagreeable? 

Tourism will likely always be king here. There really isn’t way around that. However, similarly to UCF, Orlando as a whole is a “new city”. A lot of these people came here for the tourism jobs but have grown up, had kids and now are looking for other things. We all want Orlando to do better but I think most of us think it is, that’s the point. It’s not going to magically change over night but for you to think that we haven’t made progress is just...not accurate in my opinion. 

[orange87]

10 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

While I agree with you about jobs and large corporate presence that is needed, I wholeheartedly disagree that "Downtown has done nothing to attract the 60+ million visitors to Orlando each year." Case in point:

Dr. Phillips Performing Arts Center
Amway Center (and hosting NBA All-star game)
Citrus Bowl Renovation (and hosting Pro-bowl)
Orlando City Soccer Club and Stadium
I-4 Ultimate to get people here easily and have a park under it
UCF Downtown Campus and beginning of Creative Village
Numerous new hotels

There are also talks by Orlando Museum of Art to relocate downtown. 

Orlando IS trying to bring people into downtown. It's a process, and it is slowly progressing, but progressing in the right direction. 

Has anybody heard anything new about the Orlando Museum of Art moving to downtown lately? The newest article I can find about this is from 2015.

[RedStar25]

I've heard some grumblings about where they would put it and how much it would cost. 

The Holocaust center is moving to the old Chamber of Commerce building at the edge of the Ivanhoe Village.  

[dcluley98]

Last I heard OMA was working with Tavistock to develop a downtown museum building and they were looking for a sight. Last year Growthspotter and Daily City reported that the parking lot south of the DPAC courtyard was one of the sites they were looking at. 

http://www.thedailycity.com/2017/03/tavistock-considering-this-downtown.html

[aent]

23 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Nope, I am a professional (an attorney).  And I go to those places you are referring to.  It is a tiny and unimpressive scene compared to other smilarly-sized city. 

I know Orlando can do better economically. That is what I am arguing for. We can stop dumping billions into a convention-center that only reinforces the low-wage economy. There are a number of smaller tech & financial-tech ("Fintech") firms that should be given financial support/tax breaks to grow.  Like I proposed above, we can build a statement monument (like the solar forest in Singapore) that both draws people downtown AND fosters an innovative environment.  High-tech businesses that may be willing to relocate want high-density development & light rail (a big expense, I know.  But SunRail uses technology from 1910. Can it possibly be less impressive?)  There are a number of things that can be done to grow the economy the RIGHT way.

I actually generally agree with what everyone else posted here, and much of what you posted as well, but its important to understand that while Orlando hasn't done well convincing major corporations to move their HQ here (although plenty of tech companies do have locations here, Orlando is often called the capital of computer simulation, in addition to the aforementioned space coast related industries), its important to realize that Orlando literally CANNOT move away from the low wage economy. Tourism is so strong here, and even with it as strong as it is, there is clearly demand for so much more. Even if we did, say, get Amazon HQ2 located here, it would probably stimulate Universal to rush adding 2 new parks and a water park, and we'd end up with Universal doubling their employee base of low wage workers, which would pull the increase from Amazon's hiring of high wage workers back down, along with significant increases at Disney as well. And even Amazon HQ2, which has been regarded as the best thing possible for cities to possibly get, has no chance of surpassing Disney in employees.

We have to figure out a way to embrace that defining part of Orlando while still expanding and improving your other valid points. Its rediculous to say we should stop focusing on tourism, not invest in the convention center, which is hugely profitable for the county, and Orlando frequently tops the list of top/most conventions/etc, or at the very least within the top 3, and Orlando now has the #1 busiest airport in Florida, is the #1 tourist destination in the country, etc. Most cities aren't #1 in anything real, we are. We're also usually at the top of the list for fastest growing cities, so we're doing a lot of things right. Its been a struggle to get the growth downtown, and thats obviously something that needs improvement, but the growth is here.

And Orlando is trying to get more high wage jobs, and I know here on this forum, people haven't been super excited for it as its not downtown, but Lake Nona was a huge attempt at bringing tons of high paying new medical jobs to the area, and I personally think has been successful at creating a new vibrant community, even if its not downtown. I know many disagree, but I think in 20 years, we'll be talking of Lake Nona as we do Winter Park, just with a completely different architectural style. 

[nite owℓ]

On 2/1/2018 at 3:16 PM, Jernigan said:

I actually felt good about it because the OBJ HASNT reported on it lol 

Too late, both the OS and OBJ have now reported on it . I'm sure journalists peruse our comments looking for the scoop on developments so it was only a matter of time.

Per the OBJ; "Ponte Health currently is looking at building the project on the surface parking lot at 110 W. Jefferson St., according the city of Orlando. Nothing formal has been submitted to the city regarding the Vertical Medical City at this time, although the city has received two conceptual photos and an inquiry.Ponte said she also is looking at several other downtown sites and will need just 1.5 acres to build on, and she wants to close on a site within the next 90 days."

Despite Ponte's uncertain capability of getting this done, I decided to post their press release since we really haven't had any over the top developments to look forward to after the Recession. A little excitement never hurt...

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by nite owℓ

[Boomer136]

As I compare Orlando to the cities I visit I believe Orlando is the poster child for the lack of synergy. Other areas use all their assets in support of each other. Vibrant downtowns have tourists and event attendees walking, eating and shopping in them. The fiefdoms that are set up, both private (ie: WDW and Universal working on keeping guests on their property the whole time) and governmental (ie; OC vs the City vs Lake Nona) mean all the nodes of Orlando are 30 minutes by car away from each other. It's not New Yorkers that keep Broadway alive. Chicago would NOT still be running if that were so. Orlando area is a bunch of islands.

[Jernigan]

Per GrowthSpotter, the Travellodge is under contract and set to be redeveloped as a larger hotel