Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[aent]

5 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Aent, please stop it.  I was not "screaming somebody else was wrong."  

You are making things up now. 

I thought you made some reasonable points in your comments.  I thought I did to.  I thought we were actually having a rather productive conversation. 

I was not offensive or abusive at all.  Again, I didn't criticize Orlando or anyone on a personal level. Nothing I said to you was made in malice.

I certainly said nothing to deserve being personally attacked or having my argument/comments attacked as being ridiculous.

That is cheap bullcrap.

Stop making excuses for total disrespect of other people's opinions.  This website is out of control.  I can't even talk about John Mica or the CA rail project without people jumping on me.  Get the hell over it people . . . not everyone is going to agree with you all the time.  

 

Look, I apologize for making you feel that way, your I definitely did not intend to, and perhaps I got a bit riled up as well, obviously my comment was a bit of rhetoric and in response to your comments such as "I've just reported you, HankStrong and JRS2.  Please stop disrespecting my opinions.  It's really shameful." because we simply disagreed with you (well, except HankStrong, I too cannot figure out what in the world he did) and "It's the fingers-crossed/waiting-for-a-gift-from-God approach to moving people around." etc... and I definitely don't feel that anybody else here who disagrees with me (and there are clearly plenty) has done the same approach. Nothing I said was in malice, I don't feel I was trying to be offensive or abusive, my comment was simply to point out something that seems to be causing poor reactions from others here, and while I've defended you on here many times saying I thought you brought valuable discussion to this forum (and still do), the aspect I mentioned does make it more difficult. I thought much of our conversation was productive as well prior to these other comments (and plenty afterwards too). We can talk about these other projects, and I actually think its a really good thing to go back and think about the whole HSR issue again because a lot of things have happened over its near 20 year history in Florida, and when we just look at today's news articles, and forget the ones from 8 or 9 or 18 years ago, its hard to remember how far we've come, and really put some thought into how each decision impacted things.

2 hours ago, gibby said:

Is this a fact or just your opinion?  How was taking $2.4bb out of the central Florida economy (in 2011-2015!!) so that it could be spent elsewhere in the best fiscal interests of the State of Florida?

Obviously its our opinion. Plenty of people (on both sides of the aisle, might I add, people in Rick Scott's own party filed suit insisting he accept the HSR money and he didn't have the right to go against the will of the legislature). We have to look at each thing that has happened and try to analyze and figure it out. Would what has happened with the California HSR system where its 3x over the budget and has decades of delays have happened here in Florida if Rick Scott accepted the Obama HSR money? Nobody can say for sure, but the projects definitely seemed very similar, being that they were funded out of the same program, had the same promises, same goals, etc. Obviously many details were different too, but Rick Scott predicted EXACTLY what ended up happening in California would have happened here. Its possible he was wrong, but he did predict it perfectly in California (and he's far from the only one). And while, sure, adding $2.4 billion of spending would have been nice during the great recession, if it took away more critical state dollars to deal with project cost overruns that would have further caused us to cut our education system and universities, our emergency services and hospitals, etc, just to get a fancy HSR at a time when people were suffering... well, that is showing how its not in the best fiscal interest of Florida. Things are complicated and its hard to realize the unintended consequences. My favorite example is the Cash for Clunkers, which had many goals, save the car companies and give them a boost, help the environment, help people with old POS cars upgrade and save future money, etc, and after we threw $3 billion into that program, nearly every study indicates we literally accomplished none of the goals of the program, it was just a miserable failure. Obviously nobody can try things both ways on these types of projects, we can only look back, and see if predictions that were made were right or wrong, and compare it to other things that are similar but not quite the same.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

.

Edited June 27, 2018 by IAmFloridaBorn
Wrong thread.

[prahaboheme]

 

12 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Would it be possible for somebody to please move this train discussion here:

Or here:

Thanks.

Apparently this needs to be reposted.

People, it’s time to do some self moderating (if self reflection is asking too much) and keep these discussions in there appropriate place. Those of us who don’t wish to engage in this rail melodrama could more easily ignore it if you simply followed the forum rules that you agreed to when joining.

rant over

Edited June 27, 2018 by prahaboheme

[gibby]

8 hours ago, aent said:

And while, sure, adding $2.4 billion of spending would have been nice during the great recession, if it took away more critical state dollars to deal with project cost overruns that would have further caused us to cut our education system and universities, our emergency services and hospitals, etc, just to get a fancy HSR at a time when people were suffering... well, that is showing how its not in the best fiscal interest of Florida.

Thanks for responding.  I obviously very strongly disagree.

[I am Reality]

I'll get this chat back on its normal track...

 

[jrs2]

13 hours ago, gibby said:

Is this a fact or just your opinion?  How was taking $2.4bb out of the central Florida economy (in 2011-2015!!) so that it could be spent elsewhere in the best fiscal interests of the State of Florida?

Nah, I'm just going based on that article I linked.  Look, I agree with you to a point, but somehow we need to move this discussion to the Brightline thread.  I'll address your question there to get this thing moved.  please look for my comment there.  thanks.

[I am Reality]

We must keep these different sections clean.   As busy people, we  can't possibly be expected to filter anything out.    

On that note, I recommend a few new categories:

(1)    A section for historical facts:   We should all play amateur psychologists and guess politician's motivations from 30 years ago.  Because we are uniquely qualified to climb into the heads of other people.  I want to know exactly what Bill Frederick was thinking in 1982 when he suggested a traffic light on Curry Ford Rd.   I need to know his thought process. 

(2)   A section for "Oh thank heavens":   Can't get enough of it!   Oh thank heaven!!!

(3)   A section for every Disney ride ever built, under construction, or even dreamed of.  Because we are 12 years old. 

(4)   A section about John Mica and the CA rail project:  That one is for me, because my comments are grossly offensive to everyone else.  Anyone wanting to join me can also pretend we had an actual vote on the CA rail measure.   Ignore this section at your leisure.   

(5)  A section dedicated solely to the battle between Disney and Universal.   Because (a) we are 12 years old, or (b) we live in some alternative universe where our lives revolve that 

(6)  A section where we alternatively claim Orlando is large (deserving of everything under the sun) AND not big-enough (too small to support anything, in comparison to other cities).  How the hell needs a consistent approach anyway. 

(7)  A section for every strip mall being built or renovated, designed after the Fashion Square section.   Dammit, when will Floors & Décor open??!!!!   

(8)  Sections for Publix and the Space Center in which we pretend they are part of metro Orlando.  Publix is mucho importante.  Orlando is, after all, the only city with grocery stores. 

(9)  For a different spin on the crane pics, how about a section of bridges under construction?    Endlessly fascinating, because we are 12 years old after all. 

(10)   Nothing (not a word ever written) about jobs.  Mission accomplished!!!  

(11)  A section where everyone  explains to me that Urbanplanet is not designed to solve problems.  Even though everyone else is constantly trying to solve problems.  

Please let me know if you have any other suggestions.   How about even MORE Disney???   Our quality of life, after all, depends on Disney.  And Disney alone.   

[prahaboheme]

19 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

We must keep these different sections clean.   As busy people, we  can't possibly be expected to filter anything out.    

On that note, I recommend a few new categories:

(1)    A section for historical facts:   We should all play amateur psychologists and guess politician's motivations from 30 years ago.  Because we are uniquely qualified to climb into the heads of other people.  I want to know exactly what Bill Frederick was thinking in 1982 when he suggested a traffic light on Curry Ford Rd.   I need to know his thought process. 

(2)   A section for "Oh thank heavens":   Can't get enough of it!   Oh thank heaven!!!

(3)   A section for every Disney ride ever built, under construction, or even dreamed of.  Because we are 12 years old. 

(4)   A section about John Mica and the CA rail project:  That one is for me, because my comments are grossly offensive to everyone else.  Anyone wanting to join me can also pretend we had an actual vote on the CA rail measure.   Ignore this section at your leisure.   

(5)  A section dedicated solely to the battle between Disney and Universal.   Because (a) we are 12 years old, or (b) we live in some alternative universe where our lives revolve that 

(6)  A section where we alternatively claim Orlando is large (deserving of everything under the sun) AND not big-enough (too small to support anything, in comparison to other cities).  How the hell needs a consistent approach anyway. 

(7)  A section for every strip mall being built or renovated, designed after the Fashion Square section.   Dammit, when will Floors & Décor open??!!!!   

(8)  Sections for Publix and the Space Center in which we pretend they are part of metro Orlando.  Publix is mucho importante.  Orlando is, after all, the only city with grocery stores. 

(9)  For a different spin on the crane pics, how about a section of bridges under construction?    Endlessly fascinating, because we are 12 years old after all. 

(10)   Nothing (not a word ever written) about jobs.  Mission accomplished!!!  

(11)  A section where everyone  explains to me that Urbanplanet is not designed to solve problems.  Even though everyone else is constantly trying to solve problems.  

Please let me know if you have any other suggestions.   How about even MORE Disney???   Our quality of life, after all, depends on Disney.  And Disney alone.   

There are sections for all those things. We even were willing to create an entire thread for you, and yet it seems you just don’t play well in the sandbox. 

Again, take your rail talk to it’s appropriate location.

To be clear: I don’t think anyone here has ever suggested that you are a “busy” person.

Edited June 27, 2018 by prahaboheme

[I am Reality]

19 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

There are sections for all those things. We even were willing to create an entire thread for you, and yet it seems you just don’t play well in the sandbox. 

Again, take your rail talk to it’s appropriate location.

To be clear: I don’t think anyone here has ever suggested that you are a “busy” person.

I was going to post about Mayor Dyer's motivations for wanting a 27-story (or 29??) Disney attraction at Fashion Square.   The attraction would have been sooooo much better than Universal's stuff.  

I would have posted it...but your head would have exploded. 

[prahaboheme]

5 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I was going to post about Mayor Dyer's motivations for wanting a 27-story (or 29??) Disney attraction at Fashion Square.   The attraction would have been sooooo much better than Universal's stuff.  

I would have posted it...but your head would have exploded. 

All that would have been totally fine in it’s appropriate location (which you seem incapable of).

[HankStrong]

It certainly didn't take a long time to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that once a DB, always a DB is amazingly true no matter how many posts they make pretending to play nice with everyone.

We don't need this sort of behavior.  We really don't.  It's not that we don't need a dissenting opinion, because we have plenty of those, it's that we don't need this conduit of aggression/bile for it.

[jrs2]

41 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I was going to post about Mayor Dyer's motivations for wanting a 27-story (or 29??) Disney attraction at Fashion Square.   The attraction would have been sooooo much better than Universal's stuff.  

I would have posted it...but your head would have exploded. 

I resurrected the Brightline thread responding to Gibby on this thread.  FYI.

36 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

All that would have been totally fine in it’s appropriate location (which you seem incapable of).

I posted in the Brightline thread just now to get things moved...

43 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I was going to post about Mayor Dyer's motivations for wanting a 27-story (or 29??) Disney attraction at Fashion Square.   The attraction would have been sooooo much better than Universal's stuff.  

I would have posted it...but your head would have exploded. 

is this true?  what's this project all about?

22 hours ago, tennis32801 said:

that escalated quickly. I really enjoyed and appreciated the conversation and insights regarding this topic. Hopefully you all can continue sharing.

I posted in the Brightline thread...

12 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

.

I posted in the Brightline thread

8 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

It certainly didn't take a long time to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that once a DB, always a DB is amazingly true no matter how many posts they make pretending to play nice with everyone.

We don't need this sort of behavior.  We really don't.  It's not that we don't need a dissenting opinion, because we have plenty of those, it's that we don't need this conduit of aggression/bile for it.

I sound like a broken record, but I posted in the Brightline thread to move the discussion.

13 hours ago, aent said:

 

I posted in the Brightline thread...

[jrs2]

On 6/24/2018 at 12:19 PM, Jernigan said:

Federal money...so he didn’t really reject it, he let another state have it.  Just like Charlotte has “Lynx” light rail and we don’t.

I posted in the Brightline thread to move the discussion...

On 6/24/2018 at 9:29 PM, klstorey said:

 

I posted in the Brightline thread.  FYI

On 6/25/2018 at 11:32 AM, dcluley98 said:

 

See Brightline thread...

On 6/14/2018 at 4:30 PM, JFW657 said:

 

I posted in the Brightline thread...

On 6/14/2018 at 4:32 PM, spenser1058 said:

 

see above.  I posted in the Brightline thread to move this...

I think I covered everyone who was posting about the HSR on this thread.  If I left anyone out I apologize.  too many to notice on this.  My post may be way off base, but the point is that I moved the discussion to that thread.

Edited June 27, 2018 by jrs2

[I am Reality]

10 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

It certainly didn't take a long time to show beyond a shadow of a doubt that once a DB, always a DB is amazingly true no matter how many posts they make pretending to play nice with everyone.

We don't need this sort of behavior.  We really don't.  It's not that we don't need a dissenting opinion, because we have plenty of those, it's that we don't need this conduit of aggression/bile for it.

Hank loves dissenting voices so much, he muted me.

Thanks for your open-mindedness on my comments about high-paying jobs. 

That is total lack of respect.

If no one can respect my opinions on anything, that is too bad.

I have more important  things to say than...

... "Oh my god, Otlando has sidewalks!  And birds!   We have birds!   And Jacksonville doesn't.  Golly gee, I just love Orlando."

That's not keeping things real.  If you don't like it, there are many other websites.

[jrs2]

42 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Hank loves dissenting voices so much, he muted me.

Thanks for your open-mindedness on my comments about high-paying jobs. 

That is total lack of respect.

If no one can respect my opinions on anything, that is too bad.

I have more important  things to say than...

... "Oh my god, Otlando has sidewalks!  And birds!   We have birds!   And Jacksonville doesn't.  Golly gee, I just love Orlando."

That's not keeping things real.  If you don't like it, there are many other websites.

I think you're overstating.  You've gotten quite a few likes on your posts.

[prahaboheme]

And, you can now add me to the ever growing list of people who have reached for the "ignore" feature. 

[HankStrong]

I clearly stated to you a few weeks ago that the forum unmuted you without my help.  I've seen your posts since and was actively watching to see if you would really turn over a new leaf after you "quit" the forum, but never actually left making the quotation marks appropriate.  I do detest the inappropriate use of quotation marks.

You even made several reasonable posts over the past few weeks.  I wondered if you were just temporarily playing nice with others to save face or if you were legit.  Obviously, it was the former and not the latter. 

There are many dissenting opinions here.  I actively disagree with many posters and have over the years, but we've stayed civil and didn't fly into a panic over it.  @Dale   @AndyPok1  @spenser1058 @jrs2  and @prahaboheme are just a few of the posters that I've personally disagreed with over the years on various topics relating to our city and planning.  To be fair, I've also praised them all when I've agreed with them, as well.  It is kind of what we do.  We agree sometimes, we think each other are full of crap other times.  That's good chatter.  We do it as adults.  I've seen a few heated discussions over the years, but they quickly go calm.

You are inflammatory, obnoxious, rude, hyperbolic, needy, and immature in your manner of communicating your ideas and beliefs.  That doesn't mean you don't have a firm grasp on topics or great ideas.  It just means you get keyboard diarrhea instead of reasonably or effectively getting those points across.  That said, I've been a member here for 10 years+ and a reader for many years longer.  One bad poster won't seen me running anywhere else.  I can mute you again and it certainly seems that you make many other posters feel as annoyed & turned off by your constant insults, barking & hostility as I am.  Your methods are infantile and unnecessary.

[I am Reality]

I honestly can't tell one person from another on this website. I think maybe Aent and JRS2 have tried being reasonable (I could be wrong, without actually checking).  Everything and everybody else -from my point of view - just constantly disagrees with me and it all runs together. It's almost reflexive, even when I say something totally innocuous. 

You are the one exception.  You stand out more than others.  I would never, in a million years, mute somebody I don't agree with.  That is exactly what it is...a disagreement about our earlier conversations about jobs.  

You keep telling me you have disagreements with other people.  I have not seen anything or any consequence.  Not even once. Maybe you think you stand on two feet on your own. You don't show it though.

You have a real problem accepting other ideas. And I think it's a shame. 

Muting people with other ideas is pretty low and cowardly.  And it shows a true lack of respect.  It's no better than what's going on in D.C.  

Don't ever take a moral high-road with me.  Because you can't even listen to a little disagreement.

Block me again. You don't deserve to  hear my opinions if you can't handle them.  At least others let me know when they disagree.  They at least deserve credit.   You deserve nothing.

Edited June 27, 2018 by I am Reality

[HankStrong]

No skin off my nose.  Consider it done.

[I am Reality]

3 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

No skin off my nose.  Consider it done.

I would expect no less.  You just proved my point.  

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

I clearly stated to you a few weeks ago that the forum unmuted you without my help.  I've seen your posts since and was actively watching to see if you would really turn over a new leaf after you "quit" the forum, but never actually left making the quotation marks appropriate.  I do detest the inappropriate use of quotation marks.

You even made several reasonable posts over the past few weeks.  I wondered if you were just temporarily playing nice with others to save face or if you were legit.  Obviously, it was the former and not the latter. 

There are many dissenting opinions here.  I actively disagree with many posters and have over the years, but we've stayed civil and didn't fly into a panic over it.  @Dale   @AndyPok1  @spenser1058 @jrs2  and @prahaboheme are just a few of the posters that I've personally disagreed with over the years on various topics relating to our city and planning.  To be fair, I've also praised them all when I've agreed with them, as well.  It is kind of what we do.  We agree sometimes, we think each other are full of crap other times.  That's good chatter.  We do it as adults.  I've seen a few heated discussions over the years, but they quickly go calm.

You are inflammatory, obnoxious, rude, hyperbolic, needy, and immature in your manner of communicating your ideas and beliefs.  That doesn't mean you don't have a firm grasp on topics or great ideas.  It just means you get keyboard diarrhea instead of reasonably or effectively getting those points across.  That said, I've been a member here for 10 years+ and a reader for many years longer.  One bad poster won't seen me running anywhere else.  I can mute you again and it certainly seems that you make many other posters feel as annoyed & turned off by your constant insults, barking & hostility as I am.  Your methods are infantile and unnecessary.

I believe in these challenging times the one thing that can bring us all together is a good brise soleil:

[JFW657]

49 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I believe in these challenging times the one thing that can bring us all together is a good brise soleil:

Brise soleil!!!! Brise soleil!!!! Brise soleil!!!! Brise soleil!!!! Brise soleil!!!! 

[spenser1058]

I'm going with sidewalks. More sidewalks for everyone!

[AndyPok1]

In fairness, my neighborhood does not have sidewalks and that pisses me off.

[I am Reality]

36 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

 

You both are shameful and don't respect that I have a different opinion than you!  SO SHAMEFUL! 

 

Bwahahahahahaha!  Nobody needs a brise soleil!  Put it in the dump!

Holy hell, are we really doing this AGAIN today?

I will not be engaging you today.

You've been reported again Hank.  

I've told the moderator I will go to Urbanplanet's parent company if he doesn't clean this up.  I again urge you to learn to respect other people's opinions.