Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[jack]

On 8/2/2018 at 2:25 PM, jrs2 said:

Well, Tim Baker is on the DDB and has been since before the boom.  BB got almost all the contracts on everything built downtown since then.  So, BB has got the "in" on projects.  The City is corrupt.  Look no further than the midnite razing of the Jaymont Block and all of Kuhn's incentives.  This has been going on since the '60's with Mears; why would BB be any different.  Not gonna compare to other cities b/c this has to do with Orlando, not Chicago, not Miami, etc.

Suntrust was SOM, but I don't really like it.  I like BOA.  

Orlando is a weird animal when it comes to "city."  Southern Bank was I think the tallest at the time it was built.  At some point, it was decided that a downtown skyscraper whose floors numbered in the teens was acceptable.  Maybe it was a small town mentality or something.  Maybe it was a struggle find tenants to maintain even that little office space; dunno.  But by the time CNA was built, Tampa's corresponding skyscraper was also built and it was a 400 footer.  The counterpart in Miami was from 400' to 500'.  CNA was 280+ft.  The Fairwinds was an early '80's building I think.

But this goes back to what I said months back.  The city limits of Orlando population is small; they always have been.  It's a small city.  Buildings have developed from this reality as a result.  Sunbank and DuPont were a radical departure from what was being built prior to then; size-wise and design-wise.  Then  giant horse took a crap on the city's design vision- until the OCCC.

That has nothing to do with it. The buildings are reflective of its owners or potential buyers. We are a middle class city with middle class looking buildings. You need a CEO that builds something dramatic no matter the cost, or buyers that are spending $1,000 a foot (for condos). We have neither. 

[cwetteland]

6 hours ago, jack said:

That has nothing to do with it. The buildings are reflective of its owners or potential buyers. We are a middle class city with middle class looking buildings. You need a CEO that builds something dramatic no matter the cost, or buyers that are spending $1,000 a foot (for condos). We have neither. 

Agree, I think.  I can't imaging a building owner just taking whatever design  BB wants to sell them.  While I have no insight into whether BB has an inside track into contracts, the building owner is the one with the vision and controls the purse strings.  They can say NO if BB or any other design house shows something they don't like.  Also, the size of a building is a function of the owners wallet, and what the owner thinks will get the best ROI.

[JFW657]

14 hours ago, cwetteland said:

Agree, I think.  I can't imaging a building owner just taking whatever design  BB wants to sell them.  While I have no insight into whether BB has an inside track into contracts, the building owner is the one with the vision and controls the purse strings.  They can say NO if BB or any other design house shows something they don't like.  Also, the size of a building is a function of the owners wallet, and what the owner thinks will get the best ROI.

The owners/developers get financing via bank loans. The size of the building and expectation of ROI depend on current occupancy rates which in turn determine the level of need and demand for new office space.

[jrs2]

On 8/11/2018 at 12:53 PM, jack said:

That has nothing to do with it. The buildings are reflective of its owners or potential buyers. We are a middle class city with middle class looking buildings. You need a CEO that builds something dramatic no matter the cost, or buyers that are spending $1,000 a foot (for condos). We have neither. 

 

On 8/11/2018 at 7:30 PM, cwetteland said:

Agree, I think.  I can't imaging a building owner just taking whatever design  BB wants to sell them.  While I have no insight into whether BB has an inside track into contracts, the building owner is the one with the vision and controls the purse strings.  They can say NO if BB or any other design house shows something they don't like.  Also, the size of a building is a function of the owners wallet, and what the owner thinks will get the best ROI.

Well, during the last boom, I was close with colleagues at a major GC and that’s where I got the skinny on BB.  But if you had a pulse during the boom and followed the construction of projects downtown and who got the contracts, it is pretty obvious that there was favoritism and influence in landing BB those contracts.  There’s no such thing as coincidence.  Money dictates, but when BB presents a builder with a project catered towards his or her bottom line, they go with it, whether it’s the John Hancock Center or a building in a middle class city that looks middle class.

I think people on these boards need to see the reality from the developer’s perspective a little better.  When they value engineer a project that the City is ok with that gets the DDB approval that will only cost X and looks ok, why would the developer say no?  If BB made his target price possible for construction, why say no?  Why, because deep down you wanted them to design the Transamerica Pyramid instead?  What do you care?  You’re gonna be swimming in cheddar because of your new building.  

Why do you work?  To make money.  Why become a developer?  To make money.  Do you really care if people on urban planet criticize your wood framed apartment building for being on the cheap side when it is 90% leased?  No you don’t.  That’s the reality.  And if BB comes up with a design that helps you get to that goal, then why would you say no even if you aren’t sold on the design.  That’s a debate for an architecture class discussion, but not in the real world.

[gibby]

There are plenty of developers that don't want to value engineer down to the last nickel on projects and who do want to have a good looking product when everything is finished.

[jrs2]

6 minutes ago, gibby said:

There are plenty of developers that don't want to value engineer down to the last nickel on projects and who do want to have a good looking product when everything is finished.

Well, that has nothing to do with my original points, that BB has an inside track to landing projects downtown by having membership on the DDB.  And to my point that they are in fact landing those projects, which is why downtown is full of visors, regardless of whether a developer may disagree with some of their designs.  Evidently not since they are the architects of record on most of these projects.  And my point was in response to the question of why buildings downtown look so bland or unimaginative if those were the terms used.

Oh, and those developers that you describe probably design multi-million dollar houses in nice parts of town that have already been closed on.

But you said “want.”  You didn’t say they actually “do”.  I didn’t judge their intent; only commented on their actions.

[Jernigan]

Nuziata brothers have bought the train depot.   Looking to bring in a national retailer.   These guys pulled it off with Walgreens so I’m excited 

[spenser1058]

8 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Nuziata brothers have bought the train depot.   Looking to bring in a national retailer.   These guys pulled it off with Walgreens so I’m excited 

Back in the Market/Exchange days it was an ice cream parlor with a lot of wasted space. I'm not sure why no one seems to be able to make it work. I'm trying to think what national retailer would like an odd space like that but nothing comes to mind. OTOH, I never would have imagined a Walgreens without a pharmacy, either. I'm glad they're more creative than I am!

[jrs2]

19 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Nuziata brothers have bought the train depot.   Looking to bring in a national retailer.   These guys pulled it off with Walgreens so I’m excited 

Here is the possibly overlooked beauty with this:  Ferg's left a week or two ago.  These guys come in fairly quickly to bring in a national retailer.  The point is there are some cities historically where a business shuts down and the space stays vacant.  Not quite the case in Orlando, which is a great phenomenon.

[Jernigan]

Part of the sales pitch to Walgreens is the downtown traffic  may not be where you want it to be but if you wait your gonna miss out.   They were able to close that deal and now that UCF is a certainty and the hotel is going vertical at Church, I’m sure they are salivating to do it again 

[I am Reality]

The space would have been a great place for a coffee shop/cafe.

Every train station deserves a coffee shop.  They go hand-in-hand. 

[Jernigan]

If it doesn’t happen on the east side of the tracks ...the Church St., Plaza building on the west side is planning to incorporate that kind of amenity for the train riders

Edited August 15, 2018 by Jernigan

[Ivanhoe]

Reopening the train depot as a semi public / private space that incorporates mixed use businesses (coffee, kiosks, cafes etc.) might give it the foot traffic needed to help businesses survive there. Who wants to stand in Orlando’s oppressive heat in the summer waiting for a train anyway?

Didnt these guys originally propose a Food Hall at the Walgreens? Maybe they’re up to it again.

[orlandouprise]

Buffalo Wild Wings?

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Could be a good place for a type of urban market. Like the one on Corrine drive in Audubon Park. East end market. Maybe it’s too small.

[I am Reality]

I can't think of anywhere dowtown with more foot-traffic. 

SunRail station, Suntrust, 55W, Church St, the new Church St Tower(s), Amway, soccer stadium....

 

[JFW657]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Back in the Market/Exchange days it was an ice cream parlor with a lot of wasted space. I'm not sure why no one seems to be able to make it work. I'm trying to think what national retailer would like an odd space like that but nothing comes to mind. OTOH, I never would have imagined a Walgreens without a pharmacy, either. I'm glad they're more creative than I am!

It was a convenience store for awhile back then, too. I used to go in there for sodas and chips, etc. 

[Jernigan]

The whole thing?! Or were some rooms closed off.   Fergs  was huge 

[spenser1058]

21 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

It was a convenience store for awhile back then, too. I used to go in there for sodas and chips, etc. 

Yes! It can be our next downtown 7-Eleven!

[JFW657]

13 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Yes! It can be our next downtown 7-Eleven!

As I recall, it was a bit small for a 7-Eleven.

[spenser1058]

16 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

As I recall, it was a bit small for a 7-Eleven.

Darn.

[JFW657]

17 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Darn.

As long as we get one at SuTruPla@ChuStreSta, we should be OK... 

[klstorey]

Vertical Medical Village announced, "We have secured closing on both our #Downtown #Orlando and Downtown #Chicago Properties; in September/October we push MP forward into Site / Foundations Design Development for a Permit Package, to break ground on time at both locations."  I know many people here don't expect it to happen and there are some red flags but it does seem to be slowly but surely moving forward. I think Lake Nona shows that Orlando can be a medical research city. VMC is relying upon medical tech and that's something that's big in this area already. 

[aent]

[deleted]

Edited August 16, 2018 by aent

[IAmFloridaBorn]

I trust this to happen as much as I trust 7-11's hot food.