Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

Give them directions to the shelter and various daily feeding locations?

That’s generally what we do. Staying in the shelters can, sadly, be less than safe, and many folks would rather take their chances outdoors. That is, of course, ridiculous, but our fair city continues not to deal with that problem.

Someone suggested btw that adding park space was somehow going to add to the problem. Given that I encountered three panhandlers on the sidewalk at SunTrust Center today (and in the evenings they may often be seen near 55W and along Orange Avenue) I guess we should level those blocks as they’re obviously attracting unsavory sorts.

Or, perhaps, we should redouble our efforts  to provide more case managers to get folks the help they need and the resources to do so? Given that we have more entry-level jobs available than just about any place on the planet, we have the place for folks to end up once someone takes the time to figure out how they ended up homeless (for example, did you know one of the leading causes of teenage homelessness are gay kids being kicked out of their homes by “good Christian” parents?) One has to help move people beyond those types of traumas before they can fit back into the community.

There are a lot of people who’d rather pretend those problems don’t exist. They can live out in the spotless exurbs and never have to see them. Those of us who live downtown recognize it’s part of life and  a part of the lives we have. 

I was raised in sterile suburbs, couldn’t wait to leave and will never go back. Fortunately, for most of us, we’re free to make that choice.

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

WWJD?

Escape to heaven.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

The ideas or thoughts of how to get out of being homeless are ideas of rationale ppl. Ppl who can reason and think clearly. The truth is that the majority of the homeless have personal demons that impede clear or rationale thought. Many are military veterans who deal with PTSD, drug addicts and alcoholics, and schizophrenics. As certain administrations continue to cut mental health programs, gut VA benefits and outsource responsibility the homeless problem will only worsen. 
Many military veterans trying to deal with their PTSD turn to illegal drugs and alcohol as a way to escape their issue.  Solve the mental health crisis and you solve the homeless problem.

[HankStrong]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 9:14 PM, spenser1058 said:

WWJD?

Just remember that whipping people and flipping over tables isn't out of the picture.

WWE WWJD

[spenser1058]

What’s humorous to me is that many of the same folks that like to complain about all the businesses that choose to locate in sterile environments like Maitland Center rather than coming downtown are the same ones who want downtown to have an office park or shopping mall ambience.

The only downtown like that is Main Street, USA. If one likes that sort of lifestyle, there are lots and lots of suburbs with HOAs, gated entrances and Stepfordesque covenants that are happy to provide it.

Downtowns, almost by definition are a bit gritty. I ran screaming from the ‘burbs as soon as I got old enough to escape. Admittedly, I like trees and a convenient park so I’ve always lived east of Rosalind. For the most part, as the population has increased and there have been more of Jane Jacobs’ “eyes on the street”, I haven’t had much problem with folks approaching me (although the amendment signature collectors have exploded lately).

Yes, there are people around from different cultures who dress differently and have different interests than I (as the world’s oldest preppy, things would get mighty boring if they didn’t). But that’s why many of us live down here in the first place.

In the age of cell phones, if anyone acts untoward, it’s a fairly simple matter to call for a park ranger, Ambassador or OPD. As someone who lives here, things are divers but calm for the most part along the shores of Eola.

 

[JFW657]

On 10/25/2019 at 11:24 PM, Urban Mail Carrier said:

The ideas or thoughts of how to get out of being homeless are ideas of rationale ppl. Ppl who can reason and think clearly. The truth is that the majority of the homeless have personal demons that impede clear or rationale thought. Many are military veterans who deal with PTSD, drug addicts and alcoholics, and schizophrenics. As certain administrations continue to cut mental health programs, gut VA benefits and outsource responsibility the homeless problem will only worsen. 
Many military veterans trying to deal with their PTSD turn to illegal drugs and alcohol as a way to escape their issue.  Solve the mental health crisis and you solve the homeless problem.

While much or most of what you said is true, the idea that the mental health crisis can be "solved" to begin with, sounds a bit overly simplified to me.

Mental is something for which the definition of is fuzzy at best and there are no real, definitive parameters for. One of those things that you can't say exactly what it is, you just know it when you see it. But a lack of mental health is something else. Where is the clear line between mental illness and character flaw? More confusing still, is that in some cases, it's  a little of both.

Saying that "solving" the mental health crises will solve homelessness is a bit of a stretch IMO.

There have always been and there will unfortunately, always be, both.

[JFW657]

29 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

What’s humorous to me is that many of the same folks that like to complain about all the businesses that choose to locate in sterile environments like Maitland Center rather than coming downtown are the same ones who want downtown to have an office park or shopping mall ambience.

The only downtown like that is Main Street, USA. If one likes that sort of lifestyle, there are lots and lots of suburbs with HOAs, gated entrances and Stepfordesque covenants that are happy to provide it.

Downtowns, almost by definition are a bit gritty. I ran screaming from the ‘burbs as soon as I got old enough to escape. Admittedly, I like trees and a convenient park so I’ve always lived east of Rosalind. For the most part, as the population has increased and there have been more of Jane Jacobs’ “eyes on the street”, I haven’t had much problem with folks approaching me (although the amendment signature collectors have exploded lately).

Yes, there are people around from different cultures who dress differently and have different interests than I (as the world’s oldest preppy, things would get mighty boring if they didn’t). But that’s why many of us live down here in the first place.

In the age of cell phones, if anyone acts untoward, it’s a fairly simple matter to call for a park ranger, Ambassador or OPD. As someone who lives here, things are divers but calm for the most part along the shores of Eola.

Pepper spray and tasers can help too. 

[Jvest55]

Yeah, ask the guy who got punched in the face by The Sanctuary if he was able to call a downtown ambassador or the police before his face got bloody. Please! 

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, Jvest55 said:

Yeah, ask the guy who got punched in the face by The Sanctuary if he was able to call a downtown ambassador or the police before his face got bloody. Please! 

Sure, shall I also ask the folks murdered in Seminole County while I’m at it? Hate to break this to you, but crime happens everywhere. Crime in the neighborhoods east of Rosalind aren’t out of line with much of suburban Orlando’s.

I’ve not been a crime victim while living downtown but had my car stolen in the suburbs once. Let’s close the suburbs!

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sure, shall I also ask the folks murdered in Seminole County while I’m at it? Hate to break this to you, but crime happens everywhere. Crime in the neighborhoods east of Rosalind aren’t out of line with much of suburban Orlando’s.

I’ve not been a crime victim while living downtown but had my car stolen in the suburbs once. Let’s close the suburbs!

I'm not sure crime per se is the real issue with the homeless.

It's their hanging around, harassing people who come downtown to shop or do business or just relax and enjoy themselves.

Plus, there's the fact that they often tend to be dirty and they stink. Nobody wants some filthy, foul-smelling, unwashed vagrant who might be sick and carrying who-knows-what kind of infectious bacteria, getting in their face, breathing on them or possibly putting their filthy hands that have been doing who-knows-what on them.

And we all know that when they hang around in front of businesses, they keep customers away.

[spenser1058]

Really? Interesting that the Eola Publix keeps getting busier and busier after 10 years. But hey, what do I know? I do know that people used to say that about people like me back in the ‘80’s because I was gay and likely “carrying around the AIDS.” Ignorance and lack of knowledge is a terrible thing, as we know from Arthur Miller and the Salem Witch Trials.

Then there’s Pat Robertson who decided downtown Orlando was cursed because of PRIDE events and rainbow flags. Remarkably, the wildfires he was on about were not downtown but in the fundamentalist exurbs.

There were also those that said things like that about allowing black kids into swimming pools and schools with their kids.

Once again, look who Jesus spent his time with: the sick, the lame, the poor. His thoughts on the wealthy and well-coiffed? Something about a camel and the eye of a needle.

But, hey, you’ve noted previously you don’t come downtown much these days and I mostly avoid the ‘burbs so it all works out well, I guess.

 

 

 

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Really? Interesting that the Eola Publix keeps getting busier and busier after 10 years. But hey, what do I know? I do know that people used to say that about people like me back in the ‘80’s because I was gay and likely “carrying around the AIDS.” Ignorance and lack of knowledge is a terrible thing, as we know from Arthur Miller and the Salem Witch Trials.

Then there’s Pat Robertson who decided downtown Orlando was cursed because of PRIDE events and rainbow flags. Remarkably, the wildfires he was on about were not downtown but in the fundamentalist exurbs.

There were also those that said things like that about allowing black kids into swimming pools and schools with their kids.

Once again, look who Jesus spent his time with: the sick, the lame, the poor. His thoughts on the wealthy and well-coiffed? Something about a camel and the eye of a needle.

But, hey, you’ve noted previously you don’t come downtown much these days and I mostly avoid the ‘burbs so it all works out well, I guess.

So, we've gotten to a place in society where merely acknowledging the fact that most people, especially women, don't like being encroached upon and harassed by vagrants who don't bathe very often, is the equivalent of ignorance, racism and anti-gay bigotry, eh?

I guess there's no end to the circle of victimhood with progressives. Everyone who is not an employed, tax-paying, heterosexual white male is welcome.

Re: the Lake Eola Publix, admittedly, I was not aware that homeless people congregated on the sidewalk outside the front entrance harassing people. People who I must assume are perfectly happy with it if what you are implying is true. I've been there a few times and never noticed such a thing.

[AmIReal]

7 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I guess there's no end to the circle of victimhood with progressives. Everyone who is not an employed, tax-paying, heterosexual white male is welcome.

Spenser is not the only one guilty of over simplification of a position. See your above quote for another example.

Yes, the homeless situation downtown is not good. Can someone here tell me a mid to large size city- particularly in sunny climate- they have been to recently that doesn't have the same issue.

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

Spenser is not the only one guilty of over simplification of a position. See your above quote for another example.

Yes, the homeless situation downtown is not good. Can someone here tell me a mid to large size city- particularly in sunny climate- they have been to recently that doesn't have the same issue.

Except that I was being sarcastic. 

[Jvest55]

Guys, let's make one thing clear. Publix has a full blown police officer inside the doors 24/7.

There is a car parked out front daily. There's a reason for it, because it's not safe.

My wife gets harassed by degenerates looking for hand outs BECAUSE PEOPLE GIVE HAND OUTS. Time to stop it. When I walk around with her and see somebody approaching us, I am 1000% alert. It's extremely annoying, please note this DOES NOT HAPPEN IN NYC, because people in NY are not stupid. Only Orlando residents think they are doing somebody a favor or doing "gods work" by giving some mentally ill dope head $5 on Lake Eola. People giving hand outs to the homeless in downtown are putting those who live here at harms way. End of story. 

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Except that I was being sarcastic. 

Got it. Sorry. We need a snark tag or use green font or something...

 

2 hours ago, Jvest55 said:

My wife gets harassed by degenerates looking for hand outs BECAUSE PEOPLE GIVE HAND OUTS. Time to stop it. When I walk around with her and see somebody approaching us, I am 1000% alert. It's extremely annoying, please note this DOES NOT HAPPEN IN NYC, because people in NY are not stupid. Only Orlando residents think they are doing somebody a favor or doing "gods work" by giving some mentally ill dope head $5 on Lake Eola. People giving hand outs to the homeless in downtown are putting those who live here at harms way. End of story. 

End of your story I guess, but that is one of the least intelligent things posted recently. Do you actually travel to other cities or make these observations from your arm chair.

Again to quote myself...

2 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Yes, the homeless situation downtown is not good. Can someone here tell me a mid to large size city- particularly in sunny climate- they have been to recently that doesn't have the same issue.

And if your answer is NYC I would surmise you've never been there.

[Uncommon]

I don’t get it. What’s this debate even about anymore? Whether or not homeless people are a blight to downtown? To give or not to give money to the homeless? Effective ways to get the homeless the help they need?

 All pertinent questions with difficult answers, I’ll admit. I’ll just say this: San Francisco is a major cautionary tale. So is LA. Hell, most of Cali is too. I would NEVER want Orlando to be anywhere close to those areas when it comes to homeless population. California’s long-standing policies of catering to homeless people has been causing some intense problems for 30 years, and it’s now reaching its boiling point. 

[popsiclebrandon]

I'm really kinda dumbfounded as to why jvest lives downtown if he views it as some sort of homeless hellscape.

 

Also the bigger problem is the people who hang outside Publix and canvas for some cause or religion. They are there every single day and annoy every person going in. I'm basically done going to Publix because of it. Sucks that the city feels they can't do anything about it.

[HankStrong]

10 hours ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Also the bigger problem is the people who hang outside Publix and canvas for some cause or religion. They are there every single day and annoy every person going in. I'm basically done going to Publix because of it. Sucks that the city feels they can't do anything about it.

This is the definition of a first world problem.  You are in no danger.

[spenser1058]

What’s also interesting is that by far the much bigger behavioral  problem Downtown is the crowd in the bar district.

if we’re “gonna clean up” downtown with a neutron bomb that takes out all the pesky people and leaves the buildings, we’ll need to start there.

Of course, the bar owners are a key part of the coalition that got The Best Mayor In The History of the Planet elected, so you won’t hear a peep from Under the Dome.

Given that Buddy and Glenda don’t much seem to care for each other, you might enlist her help. Of course, Andy is likely to declare war on your existence if you try to take these naughty, naughty boys and girls out of downtown to provide the Stepfordesque paradise you desire.

Maybe we could even gate downtown, put in a monorail and charge admission! Dennis Kucinich once suggested such a plan for Cleveland.

Doggone it, let’s make our downtown as spiffy as The Villages. Sarah Palin is getting divorced so she might be available to work with Buddy. Come to think of it, didn’t he get divorced too? A marriage made in heaven and A Shining City On A Hill to boot!

Edited October 29, 2019 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

What’s also interesting is that by far the much bigger behavioral  problem Downtown is the crowd in the bar district.

if we’re “gonna clean up” downtown with a neutron bomb that takes out all the pesky people and leaves the buildings, we’ll need to start there.

Of course, the bar owners are a key part of the coalition that got The Best Mayor In The History of the Planet elected, so you won’t hear a peep from Under the Dome.

Given that Buddy and Glenda don’t much seem to care for each other, you might enlist her help. Of course, Andy is likely to declare war on your existence if you try to take these naughty, naughty boys and girls out of downtown to provide the Stepfordesque paradise you desire.

Maybe we could even gate downtown, put in a monorail and charge admission! Dennis Kucinich once suggested such a plan for Cleveland.

Doggone it, let’s make our downtown as spiffy as The Villages. Sarah Palin is getting divorced so she might be available to work with Buddy. Come to think of it, didn’t he get divorced too? A marriage made in heaven and A Shining City On A Hill to boot!

Q.) What's the #1 big difference between the rowdy bar crowd and the homeless? 

A.) The rowdy bar crowd spends money. Lots of it. They are the reason for the very existence of the bars and restaurants. The homeless spend nothing and have a negative impact on business.

Your suggestion that anyone here desires for downtown to become a "Stepfordesque paradise" is a blatant mischaracterization. Nobody wants a bland, lifeless downtown. But that doesn't mean people should accept or enjoy being harassed either.

If you'll go back to the origin of this "debate" if it can be called that, my original comment was only meant to point out that, IMO the real issue most people have with the homeless is not related to crime, but harassment and their aesthetic unpleasantness.

You might find my description of them objectionable in terms of gentleness or politeness, but it is firmly based in reality.

 

 

 

[popsiclebrandon]

2 hours ago, HankStrong said:

This is the definition of a first world problem.  You are in no danger.

Where are you getting danger from? I'm not scared of them. They just are annoying trying to stop you to sign something every time you walk in.

[spenser1058]

Lots of kids from Howard walk through everyday with little incident (there used to be hundreds but conversion of part of the school to a magnet mean more soccer moms whisking their wannabe High School Musical sensations off to the ‘burbs in an SUV).

Of course, the kids create impediments of their own if you crave a Slurpee about 3:45pm.

Nevertheless, if the kids seem to navigate our temporary citizens without much difficulty, how hard can it be for a grownup?

Oh, yes, the young are much more accepting of differences. Not to worry, there’s always The Villages where homogenous living (and more than a few STDs, but I digress) is a way of life!

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Homelessness is a complex issue. I simplified my case to get my point across. However with that said, addressing mental health is definitely a step in the right direction to solving homelessness.

23 hours ago, JFW657 said:

While much or most of what you said is true, the idea that the mental health crisis can be "solved" to begin with, sounds a bit overly simplified to me.

Mental is something for which the definition of is fuzzy at best and there are no real, definitive parameters for. One of those things that you can't say exactly what it is, you just know it when you see it. But a lack of mental health is something else. Where is the clear line between mental illness and character flaw? More confusing still, is that in some cases, it's  a little of both.

Saying that "solving" the mental health crises will solve homelessness is a bit of a stretch IMO.

There have always been and there will unfortunately, always be, both.

 

[HankStrong]

45 minutes ago, popsiclebrandon said:

Where are you getting danger from? I'm not scared of them. They just are annoying trying to stop you to sign something every time you walk in.

You didn't say you were in danger.  I was simply pointing out the difference between a dangerous item in need of fixing*/trying to help and something that is just the mildest of irritations.

Homelessness is dangerous for the homeless themselves, dangerous to people around the mentally ill or criminal homeless, and is most often a blight on neighborhoods.  Drunks from the bar scene can be many of those things, too.

Being upset about people wanting to talk to you about the Lord, or their political beliefs, or sell you cookies is a first world problem.  There is no danger there.

 

 

*caveat being, I also have no idea how to fix or help these issues effectively.  It's a tough issue.

Edited October 29, 2019 by HankStrong