Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[spenser1058]

Yes, this link discusses Manny’s former BK downtown. While it may seem off-topic, it really isn’t. Downtown isn’t working, which even developers have complained about.

Looking at the history gives us a way to discuss why we’ve lost ground.

Some here are convinced all that matters are building sterile towers and “they” will come. Fill those towers and we’ll be a vibrant downtown. “They” haven’t and we don’t, particularly between 6-11pm, on weekends. 

Speaking of fast food, remember all those clerical and other folks not making the big bucks (in a law firm, for example, the lawyers make up the smallest part of a typical firm) are often getting in their cars and going to SoDo and Colonialtown to eat at Wendy’s and Chipotle. Why?

I remind everyone the name of this site is “Urban Planet”, which means everything about building an urban environment. If you haven’t noticed, in the US that means lots of fast food, for better or worse. 

Remember when we were told moving the arena was going to reinvigorate Church St. Ummm, it’s almost as empty now (on both sides of I4) in terms of things to do as it was when Bob Snow arrived. This is worthy of discussion.
 

1 hour ago, orlandouprise said:

So sad, "most anticipated restaurant openings" and Taco Bell should never be spoken together in the same sentence. And, Didint this have awnings in the original renderings? Seems the end result is a little value-engineered like always.

It is amazing how all the awnings downtown are disappearing. In a place where it is well over 90 degrees and rains frequently much of the year, that’s a problem.

Edited July 8, 2020 by spenser1058

[steve_o]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

Yes, this link discusses Manny’s former BK downtown. While it may seem off-topic, it really isn’t. Downtown isn’t working, which even developers have complained about.

Looking at the history gives us a way to discuss why we’ve lost ground.

Some here are convinced all that matters are building sterile towers and “they” will come. Fill those towers and we’ll be a vibrant downtown. “They” haven’t and we aren’t.

I remind everyone the name of this site is “Urban Planet”, which means everything about building an urban environment. If you haven’t noticed, in the US that means lots of fast food, for better or worse. 

Remember when we were told moving the arena was going to reinvigorate Church St. Ummm, it’s almost as empty now (on both sides of I4) in terms of things to do as it was when Bob Snow arrived. This is worthy of discussion.
 

Only explanation is jobs.  Downtown Orlando massively lacks corporate business spenders.  Its a shame because it's a great place.  

[AndyPok1]

This is my every so often post to remind you that downtown is quite vibrant, just not with the vibrancy you are looking for.  (Obviously COVID changes that, how permanently, we shall see).  Harry Buff has been there 6 years, Ceviche a decade until just closing. Mary's going strong despite landlord interference.  German bar had a solid 5 year run.  Kres been there forever despite me thinking it is mediocre and overpriced.  Jersey Mikes been there as long as I've been here.  Latitudes has been a rooftop hangout for over a decade.  Chase and Walgreens are anchoring the corner.  When you turn onto Orange, Dunkin and Starbucks are mainstays, Corona has been there a decade, Pourhouse almost a decade, Underground and Avenue 6+ years.

"Main and Main" circa a year ago is as healthy as its ever been.  It's changed a bit in the past year, but everything is cyclic.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

I'll admit that I've been so busy I've been skimming most threads.  Shoot me a PM with a link.  I want to catch up on this action.

Can I mention that, despite not having been to a Burger King in the past 30 years, I was recently being pounded with BK emails?  I don't know how they got my email address, but I was getting a bunch of them.  I unsubscribed, but someone must have signed me up.

I don't think there has ever been a BK downtown, has there?

OFF TOPIC, but boy did I bring it right back around!

There was one on Orange Ave between Pine and Central I believe.

Where the Pour House is.

The company I worked for at the time did the awning and signage for it.

I think t was there for a couple of years or so.

[spenser1058]

54 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

This is my every so often post to remind you that downtown is quite vibrant, just not with the vibrancy you are looking for.  (Obviously COVID changes that, how permanently, we shall see).  Harry Buff has been there 6 years, Ceviche a decade until just closing. Mary's going strong despite landlord interference.  German bar had a solid 5 year run.  Kres been there forever despite me thinking it is mediocre and overpriced.  Jersey Mikes been there as long as I've been here.  Latitudes has been a rooftop hangout for over a decade.  Chase and Walgreens are anchoring the corner.  When you turn onto Orange, Dunkin and Starbucks are mainstays, Corona has been there a decade, Pourhouse almost a decade, Underground and Avenue 6+ years.

"Main and Main" circa a year ago is as healthy as its ever been.  It's changed a bit in the past year, but everything is cyclic.

That’s probably because you weren’t here when there was, you know, shopping (Brookstone, Sharper Image, Victoria’s Secret, Express, B. Dalton, Bookseller) on Church Street, a food court at The Exchange, Olive Garden, Friday’s, UNO, Howl at the Moon, etc.

Prior to the festival marketplaces, there was local retail on Orange Ave. (Siegel’s, Urban Gorilla, Behr’s on Church, Hudson-Marcus, @JFW657’s favorite dime stores. (This was all after 1983,btw, not in the pre-mall era).

Sorry, but Church St. is a shadow of its former self. Just because you hadn’t moved here yet doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Notice we haven’t even mentioned the entertainment component of Church Street Station or the infamous Terror On Church Street.

While retail is undoubtedly changing before our eyes, it’s interesting to note that the “winners” in the shakeout are still opening stores. Ross (a “treasure hunt” store currently in favor), for example, opened in downtown Miami in the location recently abandoned by Macy’s.

Sorry, but Buddy’s Main and Main has gone backward. The last study compiled noted there was LESS retail downtown than before, not more.

What’s even more fascinating about the backsliding is that, to date, neither Buddy nor his ineffectual minion Thomas Chatmon have publicly uttered a peep about how to fix this. Of course, why should they? Among the 9% who turned out in last November’s deliberately hidden off-year election, they can do no wrong.

Edited July 8, 2020 by spenser1058

[AndyPok1]

Yes, the exchange isn't a mall anymore.  Guess what, malls are dying everywhere.  Microsoft just announced they're closing all of their stores.  I know we all want to love retail, but its just not a thing.  We've been in quarantine for, what, 4 months?  The extent of my "retail" has been Publix, Freshfield, Target, Ace.  I know we've agreed in the past a bike store and a hardware store are two things downtown needs.  Beyond that?  We shop online.  

[spenser1058]

5 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

Yes, the exchange isn't a mall anymore.  Guess what, malls are dying everywhere.  Microsoft just announced they're closing all of their stores.  I know we all want to love retail, but its just not a thing.  We've been in quarantine for, what, 4 months?  The extent of my "retail" has been Publix, Freshfield, Target, Ace.  I know we've agreed in the past a bike store and a hardware store are two things downtown needs.  Beyond that?  We shop online.  

So why are Target and the treasure hunt stores which are growing opening urban outlets across the country? In fact, just about every fast-growing urban market but Orlando?

We kept being told we didn’t have enough residents and that when “X” number moved in, everything would change? Now, we have one of the larger second-tier city populations in the country but still no retail, but an endless supply of “party ‘til you puke” bars, Dunkins and 7-Elevens.

Again, Orlando has abandoned the 6-11pm and weekend portion of a 24/7 city. Worse, there seems to be no plan by “What, Me Worry?” Buddy or Thomas Chatmon to address the challenge.

Edited July 8, 2020 by spenser1058

[AndyPok1]

At this point, its pure speculation.  If I had to guess, its the unique reverse commute that is somewhat common in Orlando.  People Live and Play downtown, but don't work.  This necessitates owning a car.  And if they're already in their car, it's plenty easy to get off on Kaley and stop at the SoDo Target (or Colonial) on the way home.  Plus being in SoDo is more advantageous for the retailer because they will get more traffic from the various close-in car-dependent neighborhoods (Delaney, Bel Air, as discussed in other threads).

[JFW657]

47 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

That’s probably because you weren’t here when there was, you know, shopping (Brookstone, Sharper Image, Victoria’s Secret, Express, B. Dalton, Bookseller) on Church Street, a food court at The Exchange, Olive Garden, Friday’s, UNO, Howl at the Moon, etc.

Prior to the festival marketplaces, there was local retail on Orange Ave. (Siegel’s, Urban Gorilla, Behr’s on Church, Hudson-Marcus, @JFW657’s favorite dime stores. (This was all after 1983,btw, not in the pre-mall era).

Sorry, but Church St. is a shadow of its former self. Just because you hadn’t moved here yet doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Notice we haven’t even mentioned the entertainment component of Church Street Station or the infamous Terror On Church Street.

Sorry, but Buddy’s Main and Main has gone backward. The last study compiled noted there was LESS retail downtown than before, not more.

Despite your "Blame Buddy for everything all the time" mantra, you cannot blame him for the decline and closure of The Exchange, where most of the businesses you mentioned were located, or Church Street Marketplace or even Church Street Station itself, all of which had fallen into decline prior to his taking office. 

Remember, Disney and Universal Studios played a, if not the THE major role in the decline of "Main and Main".

Let's also not forget Glenda Hood's placing of Church Street's eggs in the basket of sleazy con man and flavor of the day celebrity, Lou Pearlman.

Dyer did the only thing anyone could have done, which was to provide incentives to spur development in downtown and hope for the best.

You can't blame one person for a situation that is owed to a very complex and unpredictable set of circumstances no matter how badly you dislike or resent him for tearing down a couple of run down buildings you were infatuated with.

From your favorite source....

Quote

Church Street came online to great fanfare with the 1974 opening of Rosie O’Grady’s and the 1982 opening of Cheyenne Saloon & Opera House. Expanding to include the Bumby Arcade and an 80,000 square foot retail and dining complex called the Exchange, in 1985 Church Street Station drew 1.7 million visitors, making it the fourth-largest tourist attraction in the state after Walt Disney World, Sea World and Busch Gardens.

The first sign of decline came in the form of increased competition with the 1989 opening of Walt Disney World’s Pleasure Island. Irked by Walt Disney World opening Pleasure Island to compete, Snow sold his remaining interest in Church Street Station and the Exchange to focus on a new venture in Las Vegas called Winchester Station. In an interview with the Orlando Sentinel Snow stated, “I love Orlando and I love Church Street Station but there’s a time to get on the stage and a time to get off.”

Despite a 24,000 square foot addition of a Presidential Ballroom in 1994, by 1998 annual attendance had fallen to 550,000. Things continued to get worse with the 1999 opening of Universal CityWalk. In 2002, Lou Pearlman, known for launching Backstreet Boys and ‘N Sync, purchased Church Street Station, vowing to restore the largely vacant complex to its former glory. Pearlman planned invest $9 million in the renovation of the former 136,000 square foot, three-story festival marketplace making it the headquarters for his music, TV and film operations. In a heavily incentive-laden deal Pearlman also made promises to fill the complex with nightly concerts, outdoor street events, retail shops, restaurants and open a museum dedicated to Florida music. Instead in 2007, Pearlman was arrested and indicted for running one of the largest Ponzi schemes in history, triggering a foreclosure lawsuit against Church Street.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/adaptive-reuse-orlandos-church-street-station/

.

Edited July 8, 2020 by JFW657

[spenser1058]

16 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Despite your "Blame Buddy for everything all the time" mantra, you cannot blame him for the decline and closure of The Exchange, where most of the businesses you mentioned were located, or Church Street Marketplace or even Church Street Station itself, all of which had fallen into decline prior to his taking office. 

Remember, Disney and Universal Studios played a, if not the THE major role in the decline of "Main and Main".

Let's also not forget Glenda Hood's placing of Church Street's eggs in the basket of sleazy con man and flavor of the day celebrity, Lou Pearlman.

Dyer did the only thing anyone could have done, which was to provide incentives to spur development in downtown and hope for the best.

You can't blame one person for a situation that is owed to a very complex and unpredictable set of circumstances no matter how badly you dislike or resent him for tearing down a couple of run down buildings you were infatuated with.

From your favorite source....

.

My purpose is not to blame but to ask why there’s no plan to fix it? Let’s say he’s totally blameless for the 17-year decline - why aren’t he and Mr. Chatmon fixing it? On this, his response reminds me of a D.C. politician you may have heard of: “I take responsibility for nothing at all.” It isn’t leadership there and it isn’t leadership here.

[JFW657]

36 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

My purpose is not to blame but to ask why there’s no plan to fix it? Let’s say he’s totally blameless for the 17-year decline - why aren’t he and Mr. Chatmon fixing it? On this, his response reminds me of a D.C. politician you may have heard of: “I take responsibility for nothing at all.” It isn’t leadership there and it isn’t leadership here.

How do you propose he "fix it"? Let's hear some ideas and suggestions.

Backed up with links to sources that back up your underlying reasoning of course.

As far as I can tell, the business climate in downtown Orlando, or anywhere else, is not something that you can just "fix".

You can do things to help it recover from a downturn or grow  out of stagnation, but there is no guaranteed or simple "fix".

There are too many outside factors and variables that influence such things and they change constantly.

Like the current public health situation, for example.

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

How do you propose he "fix it"? Let's hear some ideas and suggestions.

Backed up with links to sources that back up your underlying reasoning of course.

As far as I can tell, the business climate in downtown Orlando, or anywhere else, is not something that you can just "fix".

You can do things to help it recover from a downturn or grow  out of stagnation, but there is no guaranteed or simple "fix".

There are too many outside factors and variables that influence such things and they change constantly.

Like the current public health situation, for example.

I have covered ways to “fix it” for 14 of those 17 years in posts in painstaking detail on this site. I guess you weren’t reading them. I even gave numbers, examples from other areas that have been successful and made numerous suggestions.

I guess downtown is like Parramore. 17 years ago, Buddy said we should judge his success or failure by whether or not he fixed Parramore. He hasn’t, 17 years later, and too many of his 9% of hand-picked voters still believe he’s Practically Perfect In Every Way.

That approach has worked so well he’s now applying it to downtown.

Case closed.

 

[codypet]

As a sidenote:  Anyone know what happened to Launch That?  Their marquee sign is gone.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

I have covered ways to “fix it” for 14 of those 17 years in posts in painstaking detail on this site. I guess you weren’t reading them. I even gave numbers, examples from other areas that have been successful and made numerous suggestions.

I guess downtown is like Parramore. 17 years ago, Buddy said we should judge his success or failure by whether or not he fixed Parramore. He hasn’t, 17 years later, and too many of his 9% of hand-picked voters still believe he’s Practically Perfect In Every Way.

That approach has worked so well he’s now applying it to downtown.

Case closed.

Well, then I would think that after 14 years of posting your oft pondered ruminations in such painstaking detail, they would be so ingrained in your mind that you should have no trouble repeating them one more time.

So please... humor me. 

[smileguy]

The City owns few retail spaces downtown (I'm thinking the cafe inside City Hall, a couple at the Library garage and Central garage, restaurant at Lake Eola).  The rest is private property, including many of the party ‘til you puke” bars which are owner-occupied. New development tends to be owned and managed by big corporate entities who's vision of successful tenant mix isn't based on the ideal tenant mix for a vibrant downtown. To say that Thomas and Buddy have done nothing for downtown retail refuses to acknowledge the Publix, downtown movie theater, and other projects that have served as destination catalysts that have made it a more appealing to live and visit, adding to street life and foot traffic that make other businesses sustainable.

I've only been in town for fifteen years and the first three of that were pretty exclusively at UCF -- a relative newcomer -- but the building stock, both in square footage and price of retail available, just doesn't line up with the great destination shopping districts of the world, nor should they.  And honestly, I don't see the appeal in corporate chains in Downtown. Locally owned spots that keep money in Central Florida do much more to build community and make place than someone coming in to gather cash and send it to stockholders. Brookstone, Sharper Image, Victoria’s Secret, Express, B. Dalton, Bookseller have no use to me.  Deeply, Kres, Mad Cow, Dovecote, and yes - even Stardust and Ibar - are what make my downtown a desirable place to live.

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, smileguy said:

The City owns few retail spaces downtown (I'm thinking the cafe inside City Hall, a couple at the Library garage and Central garage, restaurant at Lake Eola).  The rest is private property, including many of the party ‘til you puke” bars which are owner-occupied. New development tends to be owned and managed by big corporate entities who's vision of successful tenant mix isn't based on the ideal tenant mix for a vibrant downtown. To say that Thomas and Buddy have done nothing for downtown retail refuses to acknowledge the Publix, downtown movie theater, and other projects that have served as destination catalysts that have made it a more appealing to live and visit, adding to street life and foot traffic that make other businesses sustainable.

Exactly. Not to mention DPAC and Creative Village and what that will do to help Parramore along with the new affordable housing projects like Parramore Oaks and educational programs like Parramore Kidz Zone. 

It's not like he's just ignored that area. But nothing happens overnight, either.

It's easy to be a backseat driver and armchair quarterback, but real accomplishment takes time.

3 minutes ago, smileguy said:

I've only been in town for fifteen years and the first three of that were pretty exclusively at UCF -- a relative newcomer -- but the building stock, both in square footage and price of retail available, just doesn't line up with the great destination shopping districts of the world, nor should they.  And honestly, I don't see the appeal in corporate chains in Downtown. Locally owned spots that keep money in Central Florida do much more to build community and make place than someone coming in to gather cash and send it to stockholders. Brookstone, Sharper Image, Victoria’s Secret, Express, B. Dalton, Bookseller have no use to me.  Deeply, Kres, Mad Cow, Dovecote, and yes - even Stardust and Ibar - are what make my downtown a desirable place to live.

I would think that a mixture of both wold be ideal. 

[orange87]

Is Taco Bell Cantina basically a Taco Bell with a slightly more upscale look that also serves alcohol? I've never been to one, but it's my understanding that that's what it is.

[HankStrong]

25 minutes ago, orange87 said:

Is Taco Bell Cantina basically a Taco Bell with a slightly more upscale look that also serves alcohol? I've never been to one, but it's my understanding that that's what it is.

Yes.  Basically.  They have a bit more freedom to experiment with concept menu items, as well.  They also have a few items dropped from the regular menu.

[jack]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Exactly. Not to mention DPAC and Creative Village and what that will do to help Parramore along with the new affordable housing projects like Parramore Oaks and educational programs like Parramore Kidz Zone. 

It's not like he's just ignored that area. But nothing happens overnight, either.

It's easy to be a backseat driver and armchair quarterback, but real accomplishment takes time.

I would think that a mixture of both wold be ideal. 

I like the locals but we do need more chains. I would have killed for a McDonalds Downtown when I was in my 20's. 

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

My purpose is not to blame but to ask why there’s no plan to fix it? Let’s say he’s totally blameless for the 17-year decline - why aren’t he and Mr. Chatmon fixing it? On this, his response reminds me of a D.C. politician you may have heard of: “I take responsibility for nothing at all.” It isn’t leadership there and it isn’t leadership here.

In your opinion, what mid sized city would you say has done urban retail correctly? 

[JFW657]

19 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Yes.  Basically.  They have a bit more freedom to experiment with concept menu items, as well.  They also have a few items dropped from the regular menu.

In case you don't recall the origin of the above gif....

 

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Well, then I would think that after 14 years of posting your oft pondered ruminations in such painstaking detail, they would be so ingrained in your mind that you should have no trouble repeating them one more time.

So please... humor me. 

Use the search function. It’s a very simple concept.

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

Use the search function. It’s a very simple concept.

If it's so simple, how about you do it for me?

[Jerry95]

2 hours ago, smileguy said:

Brookstone, Sharper Image, Victoria’s Secret, Express, B. Dalton, Bookseller have no use to me.  Deeply, Kres, Mad Cow, Dovecote, and yes - even Stardust and Ibar - are what make my downtown a desirable place to live.

 As someone in their 20s you'd expect me to do all of my shopping online, which isn't the case. I still enjoy going to Target for my everyday needs instead of Amazon, and I don't think I'm alone. Fashion Square may be redeveloped into an outdoor retail environment and the Outlets (pre-covid) are as popular as ever. I wish the SoDo developments were actually directly South of downtown, especially the Target. Then again, I'd love to see a Brickell City Centre/Miami World Center concept, with pedestrianized roads and plazas, on the current Orlando Sentinel Site (with the Sentinel operations moved over to some kind of a Media and Emerging Technology incubator in Creative Village [*cough*, Mr. Ustler, *cough*])

Agreed though that downtown's food scene makes it desirable; although, I wouldn't rate it well. I couldn't tell you where the best burger or wings are downtown. It's hard to tell the bars from the pubs from the restaurants on some parts of Orange Ave. 

44 minutes ago, jack said:

I like the locals but we do need more chains. I would have killed for a McDonalds Downtown when I was in my 20's. 

In your opinion, what mid sized city would you say has done urban retail correctly? 

IMO a downtown McDonalds (sans Drive thru) is a great mark for a well connected, walkable, urban environment. The fact the west sidewalk on Orange Avenue has 4 separate closures between Colonial and Washington with no accommodation makes it clear that downtown isn't near it's walkability goals (In my mind walkability and Urban Retail go hand in hand).

[orlandouprise]

1 hour ago, jack said:

I like the locals but we do need more chains. I would have killed for a McDonalds Downtown when I was in my 20's. 

In your opinion, what mid sized city would you say has done urban retail correctly? 

Austin, Portland, KC, Minneapolis, San Diego, San Antonio...

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, JFW657 said:

If it's so simple, how about you do it for me?

You wanna find it, so do your own legwork. Otherwise, stop whining.