Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[spenser1058]

The two institutions that were most responsible for the success of modern Orlando were Martin Andersen’s Sentinel and Linton Allen/Billy Dial’s First National Bank at Orlando. 

They used to stroll from one end of Orange Avenue to the other to talk about the next big project they had in mind for the region.

Today, Sun Bank Center is gone and the company controlled from Charlotte: Now, the Sentinel headquarters is going, it’s been owned out of Chicago since 1976 and about half the content these days comes from Ft. Lauderdale (people in Chicago thinking Central and South Florida are pretty much indistinguishable anyway).

Oh well, no loss, right? Longtime OC Mayor Rich Crotty was probably correct that “Downtown Orange County” (along International Drive) is now the heart of the region.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

36 minutes ago, elefants said:

While I love the potential of a few tall buildings, I always drive past and notice the trees.   There could be a nice park there if they decide to leave the green stuff and get rid of the concrete.

 

23 minutes ago, Naqiy90 said:

Seems like another downtown park would be competing with Lake Eola, personally I want them to expand Lake Eola for more downtown green space, the paths in particular need to be widened, it is always super crowded! Trees are always great of course, we need shade trees everywhere!

The path around the lake was already widened once in the mid '80's. I doubt they'll widen them even more.

Also, best be careful talking about trees around here.  

There are some who become rather upset over he subject and don't believe they are worthy of discussion on an urban development forum.... 

That aside, there are some nice ones on the parcel worthy of saving and which we can only hope fit into some future new design.

OTOH, there are two or three of them whose futures don't look all that promising....

 

 

[codypet]

Seemed like it was only a matter of time if they hadn't paid their rent since March.

Edited August 12, 2020 by codypet

[spenser1058]

It’s interesting to ponder what kind of bid would have been required to free the Sentinel from the financial shell games Tribune has been playing for years now in Chicago and who locally could have put those bucks together.

I’m a little surprised John (“For the Stoners”) Morgan was uninterested in assembling a group. Can you imagine him as publisher if he could influence the daily editorials? 

Of course, he’d need a grownup like a Dickie Batchelor with access to the Coudriet fortune or recruit some of the Rosen (COVID may be giving Harris fits now  but all his resorts are paid for), Maguire/Wells or Hughes dollars.  

Then there are all the former citrus families who made fortunes in real estate when they sold their groves for subdivisions.

Oh well, as Orlando just becomes another massive subdivision, it will make our transition to Orlampa all the less painful. It sure was nice when we had local leaders instead of everyone being controlled by out of town corporate interests.

[prahaboheme]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The two institutions that were most responsible for the success of modern Orlando were Martin Andersen’s Sentinel and Linton Allen/Billy Dial’s First National Bank at Orlando. 

They used to stroll from one end of Orange Avenue to the other to talk about the next big project they had in mind for the region.

Today, Sun Bank Center is gone and the company controlled from Charlotte: Now, the Sentinel headquarters is going, it’s been owned out of Chicago since 1976 and about half the content these days comes from Ft. Lauderdale (people in Chicago thinking Central and South Florida are pretty much indistinguishable anyway).

Oh well, no loss, right? Longtime OC Mayor Rich Crotty was probably correct that “Downtown Orange County” (along International Drive) is now the heart of the region.

 

To be fair, having been living in LA for many years, there really isn’t a “heart” to this city either yet rather nodes. 

[orange87]

It would be nice if the Orlando Sentinel moved to Creative Village. Also, have there been any proposals for the current Orlando Sentinel site once they leave?

[jack]

18 hours ago, elefants said:

While I love the potential of a few tall buildings, I always drive past and notice the trees.   There could be a nice park there if they decide to leave the green stuff and get rid of the concrete.

Not a bad idea. This is the sort of thing the CRA should be doing. The population in this neighborhood is growing and could be a nice addition to downtown by adding a park. 

15 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

To be fair, having been living in LA for many years, there really isn’t a “heart” to this city either yet rather nodes. 

Yeah, I'm on team nodes now after being on team "downtown is the heart of the city" for the longest time. LA is one of the reasons as well as other cities around the country. 

18 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The two institutions that were most responsible for the success of modern Orlando were Martin Andersen’s Sentinel and Linton Allen/Billy Dial’s First National Bank at Orlando. 

They used to stroll from one end of Orange Avenue to the other to talk about the next big project they had in mind for the region.

Today, Sun Bank Center is gone and the company controlled from Charlotte: Now, the Sentinel headquarters is going, it’s been owned out of Chicago since 1976 and about half the content these days comes from Ft. Lauderdale (people in Chicago thinking Central and South Florida are pretty much indistinguishable anyway).

Oh well, no loss, right? Longtime OC Mayor Rich Crotty was probably correct that “Downtown Orange County” (along International Drive) is now the heart of the region.

 

I think Covid has decimated that idea. While our tourism will come back, it will not be the same. 

[dcluley98]

There have been proposals for the Sentinel Site.  They were rather disappointing low-rise apartment complexes a couple of years back.

https://bungalower.com/2014/08/29/orlando-sentinel-property-developed-apartments-office-retail-hotel/ 

 

[elefants]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

There have been proposals for the Sentinel Site.  They were rather disappointing low-rise apartment complexes a couple of years back.

https://bungalower.com/2014/08/29/orlando-sentinel-property-developed-apartments-office-retail-hotel/ 

 

I'm amazed people get paid to make garbage like this.

[spenser1058]

Just ask yourself if you’ve ever heard Buddy or any of his city council minions say, “You know, this just isn’t the direction we want to go. What do we need to do?”

Mayor Bill did so a number of times. But, of course, Buddy is so beloved here that we never even ask him to , you know, actually earn his six figure salary, by actually doing something. 

Instead, he’ll just get pats on the back from the developers he never questions.

Actually, it kind of reminds me of the new neighborhood they’re building over by the Citrus Bowl on Orange Center Blvd. We can call this “Buddy’s Orlando Look!”

Earl K. Wood and John Land are smiling as they look down at how Buddy operates.  Their modus operandi is alive and well in The City Beautiful: “Smile and Do Nothing For Almost $200,000/year Plus Expenses!” 

Edited August 13, 2020 by spenser1058

[jack]

1 hour ago, elefants said:

I'm amazed people get paid to make garbage like this.

Its a massing study. Thats all. 

Edit** just to get some entitlements before they sold it. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by jack

[elefants]

1 hour ago, jack said:

Its a massing study. Thats all. 

Even so, I can't see anything good coming from this.  The massing looks like two abandoned malls that have been repurposed.  And it stands at only a few stories?   I get that it would be polished up; I don't see it as a proper link between Downtown North and Downtown.

Edit -

Re: Entitlements

Okay I'll put down the pitchfork

Edited August 13, 2020 by elefants

[AmIReal]

20 minutes ago, elefants said:

Even so, I can't see anything good coming from this.  The massing looks like two abandoned malls that have been repurposed.  And it stands at only a few stories?   I get that it would be polished up; I don't see it as a proper link between Downtown North and Downtown.

Those drawings are from 2014. The building sold in 2016. The new owners are Midtown Opportunities out of Miami. They have a few properties in the Miami area including 

https://www.buzzbuzzhome.com/us/midtown-6 and "once held the largest concentrations of developable land in the urban Miami market"

I seem to recall them owning or somehow being involved in the Sparrow property, but I can't remember the details... I'll try to locate that info.

[JFW657]

On 8/12/2020 at 2:35 PM, elefants said:

While I love the potential of a few tall buildings, I always drive past and notice the trees.   There could be a nice park there if they decide to leave the green stuff and get rid of the concrete.

 

6 hours ago, jack said:

Not a bad idea. This is the sort of thing the CRA should be doing. The population in this neighborhood is growing and could be a nice addition to downtown by adding a park. 

Why not both? 

The site is certainly big enough to fit one or even two high-rises, a parking deck and a really nice, shady park bounded by Colonial, Magnolia and Orange. They could even put in a decent sized pond with a fountain fronting Colonial.

Just imagining it makes me sad to think about the boring shoeboxes that will eventually end up there years from now. 

[spenser1058]

Here’s a bit of irony - The Tampa Bay Times headquarters in downtown St. Pete on 1st Ave S, has been renovated to save buildings from the 1920’s, 1960’s and 1988.

The paper still occupies the majority of the space but the building has been sold to - get ready for it -Lincoln Properties.

The Times has long been considered one of the two important papers in Florida and took the solid #1 spot when the Miami Herald was sold to a chain.

No doubt our resident genius, @dcluley98, is as smart as he is (I bow  to his greatness!) came to be that way by reading the Times as a lad.

Anyway, it’s interesting to see St. Pete find a way to hold on to their past while here in Buddy’s Orlando, we’re, “whatever”.

I won’t even mention the day Buddy breathlessly announced the empty lot that had lay fallow for 25 years would on our city’s premier boulevard would be filled with... a mid-rise stucco on plywood suburban apartment building! THAT’S Buddy’s Orlando.

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Just ask yourself if you’ve ever heard Buddy or any of his city council minions say, “You know, this just isn’t the direction we want to go. What do we need to do?”

Mayor Bill did so a number of times. But, of course, Buddy is so beloved here that we never even ask him to , you know, actually earn his six figure salary, by actually doing something. 

Instead, he’ll just get pats on the back from the developers he never questions.

Actually, it kind of reminds me of the new neighborhood they’re building over by the Citrus Bowl on Orange Center Blvd. We can call this “Buddy’s Orlando Look!”

Earl K. Wood and John Land are smiling as they look down at how Buddy operates.  Their modus operandi is alive and well in The City Beautiful: “Smile and Do Nothing For Almost $200,000/year Plus Expenses!” 

 

BUDDY DYER HE'S OUR MAN!!!

IF HE CAN'T DO IT, NO ONE CAN!!!

Go Buddy - Go Buddy - Go Buddy - Go Buddy..... 

   

.

Edited August 13, 2020 by JFW657

[elefants]

24 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Why not both? 

That's probably the best we can reasonably hope for.  I wouldn't hate the city buying the land for a new art museum either.

[jack]

16 hours ago, JFW657 said:

 

Why not both? 

The site is certainly big enough to fit one or even two high-rises, a parking deck and a really nice, shady park bounded by Colonial, Magnolia and Orange. They could even put in a decent sized pond with a fountain fronting Colonial.

Just imagining it makes me sad to think about the boring shoeboxes that will eventually end up there years from now. 

The owner owns both blocks so both is achievable. 

17 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Those drawings are from 2014. The building sold in 2016. The new owners are Midtown Opportunities out of Miami. They have a few properties in the Miami area including 

https://www.buzzbuzzhome.com/us/midtown-6 and "once held the largest concentrations of developable land in the urban Miami market"

I seem to recall them owning or somehow being involved in the Sparrow property, but I can't remember the details... I'll try to locate that info.

His group owned the land that is adjacent to Crescent as well. 

[spenser1058]

I’ve observed that there’s precious little love for our mid-century modern buildings but it would be a shame to have them disappear.

The Sentinel newsroom, for example, not only is a great example of early ‘50’s architecture (yes, some restoration needs to occur) but is also the site of more local history than just about any building downtown. We shouldn’t lose it. Btw, the sea of asphalt surrounding it and the loading docks,etc. can all be removed - it’s just important to save the office building (although, if you want to know why I4 was designed where it was and how it was, that goes back to the loading docks).

We already lost the 1957 Orlando City Hall but at least it will live on forever in the early scenes of Lethal Weapon 3.

The 1958 Orange County Courthouse Annex was dissed from Day One. First, because the beloved 1895 courthouse was demolished to build it (sound familiar?) but also it never fit properly on its lot. As a result, it looked like a hirsute plus-size man squeezed into a Speedo. On a better site with proper landscaping , its whimsical blocks (some were saved for the History Center sign) would have been quite attractive.

The Fidelity Title Building from the ‘50’s was demolished in the Jaymont mess (enough said).

The 1959 First National Bank was subsumed into Sun Bank Center and pretty much unremarkable as part of the complex. There are now plans to change the facade as they convert it to condos - here’s hoping some of its original look might be restored.

That’s exactly what happened with St. James’ Cathedral. The 1952 structure was absolutely gorgeous and not-inexpensive materials on the exterior gave it a classic traditional look. Sadly, in the ‘70’s it was decided to give it a generic beige look to attract those new to the faith. The result was awful and finally, they removed the cladding and the Cathedral shines in all its glory again.

The First Federal of Orlando building, thankfully, is still there, but some developer Reaganized it in the ‘80’s and it lost the sheer mass of its granite and marble exterior. Hopefully, it will be restored.

All those were important as the city entered one of its most impressive growth spurts (percentage wise, 1950-1960 was our biggest jump). We should honor that heritage.

There’s one more from the ‘50’s that should never have been lost and it might surprise you. It’s not downtown, though and I’ll cover it elsewhere.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by spenser1058

[Jerry95]

On 8/12/2020 at 9:35 PM, orange87 said:

It would be nice if the Orlando Sentinel moved to Creative Village. Also, have there been any proposals for the current Orlando Sentinel site once they leave?

I'm all for the Sentinel moving to CV, considering UCF has a decent Communications and Media presence over there already. I'd love to see a new major building for Media and Emerging Technology with communal newsrooms, tech labs, and studios for audio, visual, and virtual platforms. Having a major tenant would definitely make this achievable. 

[TRENCH]

pardon my ignorance. Does The Sentinel moving out of that building mean theyre just downscaling or closing/shutting down forever?

 

also i remember one urban planning teacher saying that the ground below that parcel is possibly contaminated because of the ink residues? 

[Jerry95]

7 minutes ago, W7edwin said:

pardon my ignorance. Does The Sentinel moving out of that building mean theyre just downscaling or closing/shutting down forever?

 

also i remember one urban planning teacher saying that the ground below that parcel is possibly contaminated because of the ink residues? 

Looks like a push for work from home for now. What this means for the future remains up for interpretation. Not sure how the Sentinel unionizing efforts factor into this.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-orlando-sentinel-building-20200812-4244k6tmyjd7bopeiperamerom-story.html

https://bungalower.com/2020/08/12/orlando-sentinel-to-vacate-downtown-building/

Edited August 14, 2020 by Jerry95

[codypet]

I wonder if Orlando Sentinel just becomes Sun Sentinel with and Orlando "Local" section.

[spenser1058]

Just now, W7edwin said:

pardon my ignorance. Does The Sentinel moving out of that building mean theyre just downscaling or closing/shutting down forever?

 

also i remember one urban planning teacher saying that the ground below that parcel is possibly contaminated because of the ink residues? 

Tribune Publishing, the Chicago firm that owns the Sentinel, is in a mess and no one knows exactly what will come of it but the PEF that currently has its claws on it will likely leave what’s left worse than it was.

Whatever becomes of the actual “digital news source” (the paper hasn’t been published here in a long time), it’s important to save the newsroom because of the history behind it (longtime publisher and owner Martin Andersen had a hand in almost any significant Orlando history after WWII).

As for the brownfield issues, the Sentinel delayed remediation from contamination that leached from the Sentinel site over as far as Lake Concord. I’m not sure of the current status. It’s believed the chemicals from the printing process as well as the daily use of heavy trucks on the site are the issue. So far as I know, the newsroom was not considered a primary sauce of the pollution.

[TRENCH]

4 minutes ago, Jerry95 said:

Looks like a push for work from home for now. What this means for the future remains up for interpretation. Not sure how the Sentinel unionizing efforts factor into this.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-orlando-sentinel-building-20200812-4244k6tmyjd7bopeiperamerom-story.html

https://bungalower.com/2020/08/12/orlando-sentinel-to-vacate-downtown-building/

 

1 minute ago, spenser1058 said:

Tribune Publishing, the Chicago firm that owns the Sentinel, is in a mess and no one knows exactly what will come of it but the PEF that currently has its claws on it will likely leave what’s left worse than it was.

Whatever becomes of the actual “digital news source” (the paper hasn’t been published here in a long time), it’s important to save the newsroom because of the history behind it (longtime publisher and owner Martin Andersen had a hand in almost any significant Orlando history after WWII).

As for the brownfield issues, the Sentinel delayed remediation from contamination that leached from the Sentinel site over as far as Lake Concord. I’m not sure of the current status. It’s believed the chemicals from the printing process as well as the daily use of heavy trucks on the site are the issue. So far as I know, the newsroom was not considered a primary sauce of the pollution.

gotcha.. thanks guys. It would be cool to at least save the newsroom into whatever will be built  in the future. as for the brownfield i hope thats cleaned up in the near future... we dont want more delays in advancing downtown