Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[prahaboheme]

20 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I wonder spenser, have you ever worked in what is referred to as the real world? I know you have regaled us with your exploits in the world of higher government service, but have you ever been in a decision making role in a for profit business? You seem to have a great appreciation for the retail industry and their decision making process in choosing their locations, but have you ever actually been involved in any aspect of that decision... just asking.

I've posted this same question over the past year- most recently yesterday in another thread- and not once has anyone ever answered... what specific type retail do you, or other posters who keep railing on about retail,  want and where specifically do you think it should be located.  This is not a "challenge" nor am I trying to fight about the issue. But if an person is so studied on the subject I assume you have thought it thorough and you can provide insight to the rest of us.

Yes, and they all failed. Lesson learned.

No they didn’t fail. 

[JFW657]

14 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

I wonder spenser, have you ever worked in what is referred to as the real world? I know you have regaled us with your exploits in the world of higher government service, but have you ever been in a decision making role in a for profit business? You seem to have a great appreciation for the retail industry and their decision making process in choosing their locations, but have you ever actually been involved in any aspect of that decision... just asking.

I've posted this same question over the past year- most recently yesterday in another thread- and not once has anyone ever answered... what specific type retail do you, or other posters who keep railing on about retail,  want and where specifically do you think it should be located.  This is not a "challenge" nor am I trying to fight about the issue. But if an person is so studied on the subject I assume you have thought it thorough and you can provide insight to the rest of us.

Yes, and they all failed. Lesson learned.

There seems to be this assumption amongst a certain contingent that local government, specifically the mayor, controls what kind of retail businesses choose to locate in which location and even how developers and the architects they hire design buildings. If a development deal goes through and a building gets built that doesn't conform to their "sense of style" or a retailer doesn't think any available locations in downtown Orlando meet their criteria, it's all the mayor's fault. 

Or at least one particular mayor's fault.

It's truly baffling.

[AmIReal]

1 hour ago, idroveazamboni said:

Santa Monica population density is @10,740/ sq mi, Miami Beach is @11,550/ sq mi.

These are figures that are important, but the income level is another even more important factor. Which is why Eola, with a fast growing density, can not be compared to Santa Monica and Miami. Btw, all the more reason to not be thrilled with the planned low income senior housing planned for the area.

Another btw, how can little downtowns such as Savannah and Charleston support more retail than Orlando does. The answer... tourist. If those towns, and the others like it had to feed their retail on locals then they would have no retail in their quaint old buildings. Another reason to support more hotels and particularly conference space hotels downtown. There may be some fall out on convention in the near term- as spenser has already pointed out- but chances are medium size conferences will resume sooner than large scale conventions.

I have to admit... I don't give a crap about retail- in the sense of stores that I walk in to buy stuff. Yes, I know planners and developers measure walkability based on % of errands that can be accomplished on foot. So in that regard, I assume retail is important. But frankly, retail is not that important to me, but I am more than willing to learn about it and why I should care.

3 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

No they didn’t fail. 

Please explain that...

They are no longer in business in that location or anywhere else nearby. If "failed" is the wrong term I still stand behind the concept that retailers have changed over the past 3 decades and what they thought may have worked in downtown Orlando back then no longer works.

 

[prahaboheme]

The Santa Monica promenade has nothing to do with the income level of the people that live around it.

[JFW657]

2 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

No they didn’t fail. 

Sharper Image.

Brookstone.

Just about any/every business in the Exchange.

The State Discount Store. 

The first Walgreen's that was in The City Arts Factory Building.

Gibbs Louis

JC Penney

Sears

........

[prahaboheme]

AmIReal - how long have you lived in Orlando? Only reason I ask is because you have an obvious gap in history for when downtown Orlando was actually one of the few cities in the country for its size with retail, restaurants etc. (the 90s)

[AmIReal]

2 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

The Santa Monica promenade has nothing to do with the income level of the people that live around it.

There are roughly a dozen higher end hotels in the  promenade. See my above response re: tourist.

 

Just now, prahaboheme said:

AmIReal - how long have you lived in Orlando? Only reason I ask is because you have an obvious gap in history for when downtown Orlando was actually one of the few cities in the country for its size with retail, restaurants etc. (the 90s)

I moved here in '85 as a business owner, but I I was here off and on for family since '69. Admittedly, I traveled a lot for work in the first decade or so that I lived here, but even during that time I was actively involved in local organizations. I made the full on move to living downtown in "99, but I owned property down here prior to that so I downtown quite a bit even when not living here.

I vividly remember the retail of the 90s. It was primarily driven by Church St traffic- which we all know how that went. It was a fun time though...

How long have you lived here?

[prahaboheme]

2 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

There are roughly a dozen higher end hotels in the  promenade. See my above response re: tourist.

 

I moved here in '85 as a business owner, but I I was here off and on for family since '69. Admittedly, I traveled a lot for work in the first decade or so that I lived here, but even during that time I was actively involved in local organizations. I made the full on move to living downtown in "99, but I owned property down here prior to that so I downtown quite a bit even when not living here.

I vividly remember the retail of the 90s. It was primarily driven by Church St traffic- which we all know how that went. It was a fun time though...

How long have you lived here?

I live in LA now ;)... quite a while before that.

DTO has plenty of “higher end” hotels too.

[JFW657]

5 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

There are roughly a dozen higher end hotels in the  promenade. See my above response re: tourist.

 

I moved here in '85 as a business owner, but I I was here off and on for family since '69. Admittedly, I traveled a lot for work in the first decade or so that I lived here, but even during that time I was actively involved in local organizations. I made the full on move to living downtown in "99, but I owned property down here prior to that so I downtown quite a bit even when not living here.

I vividly remember the retail of the 90s. It was primarily driven by Church St traffic- which we all know how that went. It was a fun time though...

How long have you lived here?

And Church St traffic was driven by tour busses full of tourists from Disney and I Drive which of course, dried up when Disney opened Downtown Disney and Universal opened City Walk.

[AmIReal]

And just to be clear, nothing would thrill me more than for downtown Orlando to have the type of activity that prahaboheme is seeing in Santa Monica or what we are talking about in Miami, but all the wishful thinking, planning and vision of our Mayor has only so much to do with that happening. It is really so much more mundane than "vision"... Step 1, get employers. Step 2, get residents. Step 3, enhance employers + residents with people who have free time and want to look around the area and spend money (call them tourist or convention goers). Step 4, sell stuff...

There are a lot of "infill steps" build housing, plan for future growth and land use, etc., but it is so much more complex than the vision or lack thereof of our Mayor.

 

13 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

DTO has plenty of “higher end” hotels too.

No, it does not.

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

And just to be clear, nothing would thrill me more than for downtown Orlando to have the type of activity that prahaboheme is seeing in Santa Monica or what we are talking about in Miami, but all the wishful thinking, planning and vision of our Mayor has only so much to do with that happening. It is really so much more mundane than "vision"... Step 1, get employers. Step 2, get residents. Step 3, enhance employers + residents with people who have free time and want to look around the area and spend money (call them tourist or convention goers). Step 4, sell stuff...

There are a lot of "infill steps" build housing, plan for future growth and land use, etc., but it is so much more complex than the vision or lack thereof of our Mayor.

 

No, it does not.

You seem to ignore the “reality” with a desire to push your own views on everyone. Let it be.

[Jerry95]

I don’t understand why downtown retail is controversial. I live in the North Quarter and I’d love to see a grocery store and a Target within walking distance. I’d also like to see more restaurants that open on a Sunday up here. I may be in the minority but why live in a downtown area if I’m going to do all my shopping on Amazon. 
 
Back to pedestrianization: Orlando seems to think that the best downtown ped infrastructure we can build is a poorly routed cycling trail between the SunRail tracks and Garland even though Orange Ave is the real N-S spine, especially for walking from the NQ to the CBD proper. The Lymmo lanes on Magnolia also don’t seem fit for purpose anymore as no one really uses the Orange line as a commuter shuttle from the Centroplex park and ride to the office buildings.
  
Would pedestrianizing Magnolia be effective or is there not enough foot traffic to warrant it? Would pedestrianizing Orange with a cycle track in the middle and turning Magnolia and Rosalind to two-way streets create a strong night-life district post-COVID? Would a new pedestrian corridor from Camping World to the Amway on Church promote new development along a ‘Stadium Walk’ corridor that encourages tourists to spend time downtown and for locals to cross under I-4?

 
It seems like all of us UPers can agree we want to see a stronger/even more walkable downtown core, with places to go, wide sidewalks, and plenty of shade trees (and plenty of water fountains). Right now we have a lot of vertical developments projects underway. What I’d like to know is whether the City will take an active role in trialing and implementing new streetscape programs to create a sense of place and if the rest of Orlando/Orange County really cares about downtown.

[AmIReal]

9 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

with a desire to push your own views on everyone

I promise that was not my intent. Nor was it to be argumentative. I thought I was providing insight into a topic I have some experience in. I think my writing style probably sounds like I'm being difficult. I apologize that my tone or content was offensive.

1 hour ago, Jerry95 said:

I don’t understand why downtown retail is controversial.

I don't believe it is. I think all of us would like to see it. My opinion is the questions to ask are what type retail, where should it be and who should be focused on getting it done. NQ has the space to accommodate larger retail like a Target and I have said in the past I'd like to see a better version of SODO built on the sentinel property.

 

1 hour ago, Jerry95 said:

Would pedestrianizing Magnolia be effective or is there not enough foot traffic to warrant it?

An absolutely wonderful idea. That is the type of street that, in my opinion, would be good for small scale, local retailers like they have in WG and Sanford. I guess a question would be are enough of those spaces available at acceptable rates for a business to survive.

 

1 hour ago, Jerry95 said:

 whether the City will take an active role in trialing and implementing new streetscape programs to create a sense of place

There has been quite a few mentions of this on Bungalower and Daily City recently.

1 hour ago, Jerry95 said:

if the rest of Orlando/Orange County really cares about downtown

Best question asked this year...!!!

[jack]

On 9/6/2020 at 8:32 PM, spenser1058 said:

South Eola is currently 12,250/sq mile. Given the towers we’re still adding, I don’t think you’re keeping up to date. In any event, it’s humorous how the apologists for the administration’s poor job in attracting retail change the required numbers whenever the lack of progress is questioned. What we know is that every year over the past decade the number of downtown residents has increased while the number of retail establishments has decreased. Just think, at this rate by the time we hit maximum build out downtown Buddy will have achieved zero retail - we’ll have to build him a statue!

Where I will agree is that no, downtown will never be Madrid. I have never expected or suggested Millenia-type retail downtown. What we should expect is steady progress on the level of service and middle-income retail.

If this is the case, Miami must be twice that by now. 

 

On 9/6/2020 at 10:46 PM, prahaboheme said:

I live in LA now ;)... quite a while before that.

DTO has plenty of “higher end” hotels too.

We have one, the Grand Bohemian. The rest is geared towards business travelers. 

[spenser1058]

1 hour ago, jack said:

If this is the case, Miami must be twice that by now. 

 

We have one, the Grand Bohemian. The rest is geared towards business travelers. 

I would imagine so in Miami. And, unsurprisingly, retail is coming right along there. My favorite is that when macy’s vacated the flagship Burdines store on Flagler St., Ross signed right up for the ground floor.

As @prahaboheme mentioned, cities smaller than us have also attracted retail, such as Charleston and Greenville, SC. I firmly believe the numbers, while there obviously has to be a baseline, are less important than having someone to bang the drum to attract the retailers. That’s what we seem to be missing.

Heck, just attracting local retail would go a long way for us. Something like Miller’s Hardware would be perfect for downtown’s apartment dwellers because they stock small appliances like toasters and stuff for decorating more than the hardcore stuff (works great with the Rollins kids across the street) and a bike store would be great for our demographic.

Edited September 8, 2020 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:04 AM, AmIReal said:

I promise that was not my intent. Nor was it to be argumentative. I thought I was providing insight into a topic I have some experience in. I think my writing style probably sounds like I'm being difficult. I apologize that my tone or content was offensive.

I didn't get that impression at all and I don't see where you have any reason to apologize.

Quite the opposite, really... 

[prahaboheme]

On 9/7/2020 at 8:50 AM, Jerry95 said:

I don’t understand why downtown retail is controversial. I live in the North Quarter and I’d love to see a grocery store and a Target within walking distance. I’d also like to see more restaurants that open on a Sunday up here. I may be in the minority but why live in a downtown area if I’m going to do all my shopping on Amazon. 
 
Back to pedestrianization: Orlando seems to think that the best downtown ped infrastructure we can build is a poorly routed cycling trail between the SunRail tracks and Garland even though Orange Ave is the real N-S spine, especially for walking from the NQ to the CBD proper. The Lymmo lanes on Magnolia also don’t seem fit for purpose anymore as no one really uses the Orange line as a commuter shuttle from the Centroplex park and ride to the office buildings.
  
Would pedestrianizing Magnolia be effective or is there not enough foot traffic to warrant it? Would pedestrianizing Orange with a cycle track in the middle and turning Magnolia and Rosalind to two-way streets create a strong night-life district post-COVID? Would a new pedestrian corridor from Camping World to the Amway on Church promote new development along a ‘Stadium Walk’ corridor that encourages tourists to spend time downtown and for locals to cross under I-4?

 
It seems like all of us UPers can agree we want to see a stronger/even more walkable downtown core, with places to go, wide sidewalks, and plenty of shade trees (and plenty of water fountains). Right now we have a lot of vertical developments projects underway. What I’d like to know is whether the City will take an active role in trialing and implementing new streetscape programs to create a sense of place and if the rest of Orlando/Orange County really cares about downtown.

There was a study done not long ago regarding some of these options that you speak about - I doubt it’s gone much further than that. 
 

Pedestrianizing Magnolia seems like an obvious choice with minimal disruption to vehicular traffic. It is a very quaint and underutilized street. The city would have to be on board though to realize its full potential.

[elefants]

5 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by elefants
Ignore this

[JFW657]

On 9/7/2020 at 12:08 AM, prahaboheme said:

You seem to ignore the “reality” with a desire to push your own views on everyone. Let it be.

  

[AmIReal]

Admittedly a bit galling, but I thought I'd "let it be"...

[JFW657]

There's a joke involving The Beatles in there somewhere. 

[idroveazamboni]

https://www.walkscore.com/FL/Orlando/South_Eola

South Eola Neighborhood Ranking

Compare South Eola to other Orlando neighborhoods.

Rank	Name	Walk Score	Transit Score	Bike Score	Population
1	South Eola	91	63	76	2,052
2	Central Business District	85	67	78	3,431
3	Lake Eola Heights	85	62	85	1,555

[nite owℓ]

Not sure how South Eola has a higher walk score than the CBD... most of the bars/restaurants/entertainment are located within the CBD and its central location makes it more walkable than the surrounding neighborhoods.

[dcluley98]

Probably has something to do with 2 large three-lane thoroughfares running through the CBD which are less pedestrian friendly and more car-centric than the small roads in other neighborhoods.  

[uncreativeusername]

9 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Not sure how South Eola has a higher walk score than the CBD... most of the bars/restaurants/entertainment are located within the CBD and its central location makes it more walkable than the surrounding neighborhoods.

 

8 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Probably has something to do with 2 large three-lane thoroughfares running through the CBD which are less pedestrian friendly and more car-centric than the small roads in other neighborhoods.  

Presumably Publix as well...I would imagine a neighborhood grocery has a lot of weight.