Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[spenser1058]

Red Lobster and Truist among those reducing the size of their downtown footprints:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/04/29/red-lobster-to-sublease-downtown-office-space.html?ana=maz

From OBJ

 

 

[spenser1058]

For much of our history, Orange County (and, more recently, Orlando) has replaced or added on to its main public buildings every 35 years or so. 

The Courthouse and Orlando City Hall were both built in the 1990’s and would be approaching the 30+ year mark within the next few years. However, both were built with room to grow (the Courthouse had unused floors built and City Hall, in a unique public/private partnership with CNL, set up a deal where over time, the city occupies more and more of the office buildings which flank the original domed municipal building).

Otoh, the Orange County Administration Center, built in the early ‘80’s, long ago outgrew the needs of a prosperous county. The Republican-controlled county commission of those years loved perpetuating the fiction they were keeping government small by never replacing the “Brick Bunker”. In fact, they bought nondescript midrises along South St. and sent other parts of county government spreading across the county. One was indeed fortunate if one actually knew where the offices of the Tax Collector or the Supervisor of Elections were located.

As a blue county that no longer believes government is a four-letter word, we have an opportunity to once again provide a convenient facility downtown (which, after all is pretty much in the middle of the county) that could house many of these departments within easy reach of each other and at a place citizens wouldn’t have to rely on GPS to find.

As in the case of the courthouse and City Hall, it would also be possible to build something unique downtown we could all be proud of instead of the moribund dreck that is being constructed by out-of-town developers who could care less what the community is stuck with for thirty years so long as they maximize their profit.

Interestingly, because rhe county has no profit motive, it could house the offices in an attractive setting at little more than county offices are currently paying to house themselves in third rate office parks hidden away in nondescript areas of the county.

It’s worth looking into as we are now well into the 21st century. In fact, with the digital services that are now the norm and a headcount that is growing more slowly, it might cost little more (adjusted for inflation) than it did in the ‘80’s when we had a smaller population.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by spenser1058

[codypet]

Always cracked me up that I had to drive to the Millenia to have meetings with the Public Works division, but you're right the supervisor of elections being in some warehouse on Kaley or those offices next to Channel 9, it is all kind of a mess.  The have the lot east of them to build Phase I of a campus and the current lot as Phase II.  

[jack]

11 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

For much of our history, Orange County (and, more recently, Orlando) has replaced or added on to its main public buildings every 35 years or so. 

The Courthouse and Orlando City Hall were both built in the 1990’s and would be approaching the 30+ year mark within the next few years. However, both were built with room to grow (the Courthouse had unused floors built and City Hall, in a unique public/private partnership with CNL, set up a deal where over time, the city occupies more and more of the office buildings which flank the original domed municipal building).

Otoh, the Orange County Administration Center, built in the early ‘80’s, long ago outgrew the needs of a prosperous county. The Republican-controlled county commission of those years loved perpetuating the fiction they were keeping government small by never replacing the “Brick Bunker”. In fact, they bought nondescript midrises along South St. and sent other parts of county government spreading across the county. One was indeed fortunate if one actually knew where the offices of the Tax Collector or the Supervisor of Elections were located.

As a blue county that no longer believes government is a four-letter word, we have an opportunity to once again provide a convenient facility downtown (which, after all is pretty much in the middle of the county) that could house many of these departments within easy reach of each other and at a place citizens wouldn’t have to rely on GPS to find.

As in the case of the courthouse and City Hall, it would also be possible to build something unique downtown we could all be proud of instead of the moribund dreck that is being constructed by out-of-town developers who could care less what the community is stuck with for thirty years so long as they maximize their profit.

Interestingly, because rhe county has no profit motive, it could house the offices in an attractive setting at little more than county offices are currently paying to house themselves in third rate office parks hidden away in nondescript areas of the county.

It’s worth looking into as we are now well into the 21st century. In fact, with the digital services that are now the norm and a headcount that is growing more slowly, it might cost little more (adjusted for inflation) than it did in the ‘80’s when we had a smaller population.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It works us on these message boards but the majority of the people are spread out all over the County. The admin building will always be in the center of the largest city but spreading everything else out helps the majority of the residents. 

I have to meet at these non distinct sad buildings in BFE but I get why they do it. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, jack said:

It works us on these message boards but the majority of the people are spread out all over the County. The admin building will always be in the center of the largest city but spreading everything else out helps the majority of the residents. 

I have to meet at these non distinct sad buildings in BFE but I get why they do it. 

Seems like if convenience was the reasoning behind it, there would be multiple agencies at each outlying location instead of one county office at one location, another county office across town somewhere and another across town the other direction.

It's convenient for people in the same part of town who need to visit the particular office they live near, but massively inconvenient for everyone else.

If convenience were really the goal, they'd have to either centralize everything or make every county office available at each satellite location.

I'm guessing it has more to do with where they were able to find the cheapest rent.

[smileguy]

13 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

For much of our history, Orange County (and, more recently, Orlando) has replaced or added on to its main public buildings every 35 years or so. 

The Courthouse and Orlando City Hall were both built in the 1990’s and would be approaching the 30+ year mark within the next few years. However, both were built with room to grow (the Courthouse had unused floors built and City Hall, in a unique public/private partnership with CNL, set up a deal where over time, the city occupies more and more of the office buildings which flank the original domed municipal building).

As a latecomer (not arriving until the mid 2000s) it has struck me that the lot between CNL I and City Commons garage looks to be a site planned for development, otherwise it seems like it would have recieved some better fixtures and finishes.  I know the county already owns the site if the current admin building (and garage across the street) but this seems like the perfect place for another major government building. 

Do you know what was planned for that site?
 

 

[codypet]

21 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I'm guessing it has more to do with where they were able to find the cheapest rent.

In the case of the public works building it was probably where they had surplus land lying around.

[jack]

1 hour ago, smileguy said:

As a latecomer (not arriving until the mid 2000s) it has struck me that the lot between CNL I and City Commons garage looks to be a site planned for development, otherwise it seems like it would have recieved some better fixtures and finishes.  I know the county already owns the site if the current admin building (and garage across the street) but this seems like the perfect place for another major government building. 

Do you know what was planned for that site?
 

 

My memory is a bit hazy but I believe it was for a 3rd CNL tower. Spenser probably knows. 

[spenser1058]

7 minutes ago, jack said:

My memory is a bit hazy but I believe it was for a 3rd CNL tower. Spenser probably knows. 

That’s what I remember, too. CNL was a rising player back in the Frederick days but seems to have faded a bit over the last few years (they even had CNL Bank in the complex at one point. I’m not sure what changed.

[nite owℓ]

49 minutes ago, jack said:

My memory is a bit hazy but I believe it was for a 3rd CNL tower. Spenser probably knows. 

Are you referring to CNL III or another misc. CNL building?

Otherwise IIRC, CNL III was proposed for the Southern parcel of DPAC's front lawn:

 

CNL III topic created by bic: https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/topic/117313-cnl-iii-office-proposed/#comments

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by nite owℓ
Site formatting issue

[spenser1058]

19 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Are you referring to CNL III or another misc. CNL building?

Otherwise IIRC, CNL III was proposed for the Southern parcel of DPAC's front lawn:

http://media.bizj.us/view/img/6035791/cnl-iii-rendering-2.jpg

That’s the one I’m thinking about, too. So far as I know, that’s all that ever was considered.

Edited May 4, 2021 by spenser1058

[codypet]

Whoa! I never realized the garage over Anderson.

[jack]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

That’s the one I’m thinking about, too. So far as I know, that’s all that ever was considered.

I thought the one next to DPAC was CNL IV. There was a reason the lot was left so underwhelming. behind CNL II but I may be misremembering. 

[AndyPok1]

As much as I would love to see the new buildings, I think over the next few years as we see how things shake out, the county occupying various unused office space due to WFH migrations would make a lot of sense to consolidate the various departments.

I will partially defend the Election Supervisor being on Kaley.  It's downtown adjacent.  We should/need to get to a point where SoDo and North Quarter are basically extended parts of downtown.  Also, with the popularity of early voting creating an influx of people to the location, having it just off a highway ramp and largely easy in/out is probably preferable to the CBD while still being centrally located.

[Alleri459]

12 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

As much as I would love to see the new buildings, I think over the next few years as we see how things shake out, the county occupying various unused office space due to WFH migrations would make a lot of sense to consolidate the various departments.

I will partially defend the Election Supervisor being on Kaley.  It's downtown adjacent.  We should/need to get to a point where SoDo and North Quarter are basically extended parts of downtown.  Also, with the popularity of early voting creating an influx of people to the location, having it just off a highway ramp and largely easy in/out is probably preferable to the CBD while still being centrally located.

Very true! It will be interesting if the County ends up making a move like taking up vacant space at 200 S Orange.

[spenser1058]

Apparently instead of a convention center, the proposed Pine St tower east of Rosalind will now fill that space with a new anchor facility for OMA.

Orlando Museum of Art will expand into new luxury downtown tower
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-et-orlando-museum-of-art-downtown-expansion-20210510-qdus26y3mrfohk6kgccjpziwl4-story.html

From The Sentinel 

 

I recognize that just as before when a then new previous director floated the Lake Nona trial balloon to make a splash in the community, their newest leader is now doing so. Unless something big has changed, OMA has rarely been the prime mover for philanthropy among our local arts organizations. Nevertheless, I suppose we’ll find out soon enough if this time things are different.

 

I’ll also say a museum should be much less intrusive for the neighborhood than a convention facility would have been, so that’s progress.

 

 

 

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Edited May 10, 2021 by spenser1058

[Uncommon]

This is amazing news. 2-for-1 special: not only does this give more credence to the tower being built, but having OMA downtown is huge to bolster downtown Orlando’s reputation as a cultural destination. Very excited for this!

[elefants]

22 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Apparently instead of a convention center, the proposed Pine St tower east of Rosalind will now fill that space with a new anchor facility for OMA.

Orlando Museum of Art will expand into new luxury downtown tower
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-et-orlando-museum-of-art-downtown-expansion-20210510-qdus26y3mrfohk6kgccjpziwl4-story.html

From the article:

"The museum will anchor the forthcoming 1 million-square-foot modern glass tower at Church, Lake and Pine streets. The new 33-story building, by SDG, LLC and Summa Development Group, LLC, also will contain a luxury restaurant, condominiums, penthouses, a “sky club” and the first five-star hotel in Orlando’s central business district."

This almost seems too good to be true. I hate that I've been conditioned to have the I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it mentality.

If there is anything disappointing about this project, it's that we won't have a world-class architect designing some avant-garde behemoth of a museum (like I was secretly hoping for)... but I could settle for this.

Edited May 10, 2021 by elefants

[jack]

16 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Apparently instead of a convention center, the proposed Pine St tower east of Rosalind will now fill that space with a new anchor facility for OMA.

Orlando Museum of Art will expand into new luxury downtown tower
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-et-orlando-museum-of-art-downtown-expansion-20210510-qdus26y3mrfohk6kgccjpziwl4-story.html

From The Sentinel 

 

I recognize that just as before when a then new previous director floated the Lake Nona trial balloon to make a splash in the community, their newest leader is now doing so. Unless something big has changed, OMA has rarely been the prime mover for philanthropy among our local arts organizations. Nevertheless, I suppose we’ll find out soon enough if this time things are different.

 

I’ll also say a museum should be much less intrusive for the neighborhood than a convention facility would have been, so that’s progress.

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

We need someone like Eli Broad (RIP) to make it happen. Otherwise, it will be difficult to raise the money needed for a new building and the collection. But here is to hoping! 

[sumstra]

16 hours ago, elefants said:

From the article:

"The museum will anchor the forthcoming 1 million-square-foot modern glass tower at Church, Lake and Pine streets. The new 33-story building, by SDG, LLC and Summa Development Group, LLC, also will contain a luxury restaurant, condominiums, penthouses, a “sky club” and the first five-star hotel in Orlando’s central business district."

This almost seems too good to be true. I hate that I've been conditioned to have the I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it mentality.

If there is anything disappointing about this project, it's that we won't have a world-class architect designing some avant-garde behemoth of a museum (like I was secretly hoping for)... but I could settle for this.

FYI They've since updated the article - OMA is in addition to the Convention space - "The new 33-story building, by SDG, LLC, and Summa Development Group, LLC, also will contain a luxury restaurant, condominiums, penthouses, a “sky club,” a convention center, a dog park and the first five-star hotel in Orlando’s central business district"

 

[spenser1058]

This is sounding more and more like the infamous 7-star resort that promised everything but the kitchen sink. Maybe Ms. Ponte can add a VMC to it…

[JFW657]

Just wait until it gets Orlando'd...... 

 

[spenser1058]

Isn’t it interesting that firms like Lincoln whose projects sooner or later always seem to get built seem to avoid the hucksterism of these folks whose projects rarely seem to materialize?

[JFW657]

7 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Isn’t it interesting that firms like Lincoln whose projects sooner or later always seem to get built seem to avoid the hucksterism of these folks whose projects rarely seem to materialize?

Maybe Lincoln projects just start out with more realistic and more accomplishable goals to begin with.

Fewer bells and whistles, as it were.  

[sumstra]

30 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

This is sounding more and more like the infamous 7-star resort that promised everything but the kitchen sink. Maybe Ms. Ponte can add a VMC to it…

.....funny.

You seem to be missing the point where this developer is the same as CitiTower.

I'm having a hard time recalling Ms. Pointe's credentials...