Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[nite owℓ]

18 hours ago, elefants said:

From the article:

"The museum will anchor the forthcoming 1 million-square-foot modern glass tower at Church, Lake and Pine streets. The new 33-story building, by SDG, LLC and Summa Development Group, LLC, also will contain a luxury restaurant, condominiums, penthouses, a “sky club” and the first five-star hotel in Orlando’s central business district."

This almost seems too good to be true. I hate that I've been conditioned to have the I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it mentality.

If there is anything disappointing about this project, it's that we won't have a world-class architect designing some avant-garde behemoth of a museum (like I was secretly hoping for)... but I could settle for this.

Last year, Doug Metzger, the city’s chief planning officer seemed pretty optimistic about the tower coming to fruition. One reason we’re so excited about this project is because of our experience with Mr. Socol and CitiTower,” Metzger said. “He is a developer who has delivered what he said he would deliver, so we really appreciate working with him. We’re looking forward to seeing this one move forward. Based on the museum director's comments, it still sounds like they still need to raise funds to make the museum component happen, "De Groft expressed optimism the money could be found to carry out the ambitious plans. No price tag was given, and spokeswoman Treva Marshall said a fundraising plan was still being determined."

Personally, I preferred their original plans "to bring downtown Orlando’s first 5-star convention hotel to the central business district as part of the new mixed-use tower at 319 E. Church St. The plans call for 129 branded residences – a combination of 102 condominiums and 27 penthouse units over the hotel."  https://www.growthspotter.com/news/downtown-orlando-developments/gs-news-summa-tower-20200821-2gg6on25gfho7ifnybqkxqk3xe-story.html I just want to see the tower break ground, if only for its architecture. Hopefully it would spur other developers to bring their "A" game when they propose new developments downtown.

Now that OMA has thrown their hat into the ring, my main concern is accessibility--especially for people who do not live downtown. I kinda think the Orlando Sentinel site would be a better fit for a museum and this project... it's a blank slate and they could go full scale there. If cost is an issue, I wonder why they didn't consider Society's building. Museums are destination sites and certain high demand exhibits can attract thousands of people... parking would be an issue at its proposed location. Easy access to on-site parking and nearby parking garages is crucial. So even though this tower is located in the outskirts of the Central Business District, I don't think neighboring South Eola would be able to contend with the parking or traffic for large events. IMO, a venue like a museum is better suited on one of the main arteries.

Edited May 11, 2021 by nite owℓ

[spenser1058]

Sometimes, these developers get a little desperate and get out over their skis. This whole project has been an adventure in that. If I’m wrong and this happens, I’ll gladly acknowledge my error. 

[spenser1058]

19 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sometimes, these developers get a little desperate and get out over their skis. This whole project has been an adventure in that. If I’m wrong and this happens, I’ll gladly acknowledge my error. 

Recall there were staffers singing the praises of Ms. Ponte and VMC, too. Let’s also not forget Buddy and Cameron Kuhn were, ummm,  buddies, too…

Edited May 11, 2021 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

48 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Now that OMA has thrown their hat into the ring, my main concern is accessibility--especially for people who do not live downtown. I kinda think the Orlando Sentinel site would be a better fit for a museum and this project... it's a blank slate and they could go full scale there. If cost is an issue, I wonder why they didn't consider Society's building. Museums are destination sites and certain high demand exhibits can attract thousands of people... parking would be an issue at its proposed location. Easy access to on-site parking and nearby parking garages is crucial. So even though this tower is located in the outskirts of the Central Business District, I don't think neighboring South Eola would be able to contend with the parking or traffic for large events. IMO, a venue like a museum is better suited on one of the main arteries.

Good points.

Makes you wonder what they're thinking.

The south lawn of the DPAC would even be better suited.

At least there, they'd have the City Hall garage and the SunTruist garage a short stroll away.

[bqknight]

52 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Now that OMA has thrown their hat into the ring, my main concern is accessibility--especially for people who do not live downtown. I kinda think the Orlando Sentinel site would be a better fit for a museum and this project... it's a blank slate and they could go full scale there. If cost is an issue, I wonder why they didn't consider Society's building. Museums are destination sites and certain high demand exhibits can attract thousands of people... parking would be an issue at its proposed location. Easy access to on-site parking and nearby parking garages is crucial. So even though this tower is located in the outskirts of the Central Business District, I don't think neighboring South Eola would be able to contend with the parking or traffic for large events. IMO, a venue like a museum is better suited on one of the main arteries.

Well, it sure looks like there would be a good amount of parking in this building, but also - could people not park in the CBD and walk the 3 blocks over to South Eola? I walk from South Eola to the CBD for work and it's literally a 5 minute walk - you wouldn't get parking that close to anywhere in a major city. I think the Sentinel site would actually be LESS accessible - no one wants to walk over there (now anyway). In South Eola, you're walking through arguably the "prettiest" part of Downtown Orlando. 

[JFW657]

12 minutes ago, bqknight said:

Well, it sure looks like there would be a good amount of parking in this building, but also - could people not park in the CBD and walk the 3 blocks over to South Eola? I walk from South Eola to the CBD for work and it's literally a 5 minute walk - you wouldn't get parking that close to anywhere in a major city. I think the Sentinel site would actually be LESS accessible - no one wants to walk over there (now anyway). In South Eola, you're walking through arguably the "prettiest" part of Downtown Orlando. 

I guess if the neighboring garage on Pine St was full or didn't allow OMA parking, the County Admin Garage would be about the closest to the site.

But as for the Sentinel site being less than desirable aesthetically, I would imagine after they redeveloped it, assuming it was done well, it would be transformed into a garden of delight. 

[spenser1058]

12 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I guess if the neighboring garage on Pine St was full or didn't allow OMA parking, the County Admin Garage would be about the closest to the site.

But as for the Sentinel site being less than desirable aesthetically, I would imagine after they redeveloped it, assuming it was done well, it would be transformed into a garden of delight. 

It just needs a 7-Eleven.

[nite owℓ]

35 minutes ago, bqknight said:

Well, it sure looks like there would be a good amount of parking in this building, but also - could people not park in the CBD and walk the 3 blocks over to South Eola? I walk from South Eola to the CBD for work and it's literally a 5 minute walk - you wouldn't get parking that close to anywhere in a major city. I think the Sentinel site would actually be LESS accessible - no one wants to walk over there (now anyway). In South Eola, you're walking through arguably the "prettiest" part of Downtown Orlando. 

I live downtown as well, but I rarely walk anywhere during peak temps. Also, one person's 5 min walk could be another person's "mile" especially if they are elderly or have accessibility issues. Not everyone will use valet parking if it's even an option at the proposed location. Just hear me out...

The entire Orlando Sentinel site is a blank slate... they could go as big and fancy as they wanted to there. Sure, "no one wants to walk over there" now, but the whole point is to revitalize the area and take advantage of the land's "highest and best use". If the right project comes along they could probably incorporate more parking spaces into the garage than just the first two levels which is what is currently being proposed. Also:

1) The OS site offers a ton of on-street parking on either side of the property all along Orange Ave and Rosalind/Magnolia.

2) There is also a big public parking garage located directly next to the OS site on E Amelia St (AKA the Courthouse) and another public parking garage on W Amelia St on the other side of I-4 next to Bob Carr which could be used for overflow parking if needed.

3) Not to mention traffic can easily be dispersed at the OS site, while I imagine most cars will try to take Summerlin to cut through Thornton Park/South Eola in its proposed location. It is already a nightmare trying to drive down Summerlin... just imagine a convention or high volume exhibit at the museum on Pine St.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the current site/development. I'm just saying the OS site wouldn't have as many limitations and they could build a full scale museum there instead of some sort of satellite branch. Just my 2 cents.

Edited May 11, 2021 by nite owℓ

[bqknight]

12 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

I live downtown as well, but I rarely walk anywhere during peak temps. Also, one person's 5 min walk could be another person's "mile" especially if they are elderly or have accessibility issues. Not everyone will use valet parking if it's even an option at the proposed location. Just hear me out...

The entire Orlando Sentinel site is a blank slate... they could go as big and fancy as they wanted to there. Sure, "no one wants to walk over there" now, but the whole point is to revitalize the area and take advantage of the land's "highest and best use". If the right project comes along they could probably incorporate more parking spaces into the garage than just the first two levels which is what is currently being proposed. Also:

1) The OS site offers a ton of on-street parking on either side of the property all along Orange Ave and Rosalind/Magnolia.

2) There is also a big public parking garage located directly next to the OS site on E Amelia St (AKA the Courthouse) and another public parking garage on W Amelia St on the other side of I-4 next to Bob Carr which could be used for overflow parking if needed.

3) Not to mention traffic can easily be dispersed at the OS site, while I imagine most cars will try to take Summerlin to cut through Thornton Park/South Eola in its proposed location. It is already a nightmare trying to drive down Summerlin... just imagine a convention or high volume exhibit at the museum on Pine St.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the current site/development. I'm just saying the OS site wouldn't have as many limitations and they could build a full scale museum there instead of some sort of satellite branch. Just my 2 cents.

I just don't think parking is an actual issue here - the Library parking garage is .2 miles away, and the County Admin building garage is also .2 miles away. You have to think that hundreds of people per day on the weekend are coming to the area as well (when the weather is nice any way), with the Farmer's Market and just visiting Lake Eola. 

I'll definitely give you the point about traffic though - South Eola can already get pretty congested when major events are taking place at Lake Eola. 

 

[prahaboheme]

This would be an additional gallery space for OMA while retaining their location at Lock Haven Park, from what it seems.

If this is the case, I would have preferred that they retrofit and existing downtown building in a more visible location such as the Exchange Building.

One can dream...

[dcluley98]

The biggest obstacle to this project is by far land acquisition. The proposed area they are showing as the footprint is comprised of about 7 parcels, with 5 different owners, none of whom happen to be the developer. One of the parcels houses a 3 story apartment complex, and there are 2 real estate agencies and a couple of other businesses occupying other buildings. This would make a hell of a lot more sense if it was proposed on the Sentinel site. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by dcluley98

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

The biggest obstacle to this project is by far land acquisition. The proposed area they are showing as the footprint is comprised of about 7 parcels, with 5 different owners, none of who happen to be the developer. One of the parcels houses a 3 story apartment complex, and there are 2 real estate agencies and a couple of other businesses occupying other buildings. This would make a hell of a lot more sense if it was proposed on the Sentinel site. 

Egad! Are they trying to take out St. Regis?

[dcluley98]

According to their latest pipe dream rendering, yep.  I admit it looks great and would be a game changer, but I highly doubt it comes to fruition as proposed.  Maybe they could do a swap with the VMC parcel. 

[spenser1058]

Well, the traffic created by a convention facility was already a no-go for me on that site (especially when, as has been noted, there are much more compatible options on the Sentinel lot or along I4.) Losing St. Regis just kills it for me (imagine what the fellow that converted the temple next to St. James could do with it!)

Architecture 101 - a sense of place, please.

Edited May 12, 2021 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

52 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Egad! Are they trying to take out St. Regis?

That's my concern and why I'd be just as happy if it didn't happen.

Let the OMA find another, more suitable spot to expand, build something with a smaller footprint on that parcel, and....

LEAVE THE ST. REGIS ALONE!!!!

[spenser1058]

51 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

That's my concern and why I'd be just as happy if it didn't happen.

Let the OMA find another, more suitable spot to expand, build something with a smaller footprint on that parcel, and....

LEAVE THE ST. REGIS ALONE!!!!

Imagine if St. Regis had a tree!

[jack]

19 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

The biggest obstacle to this project is by far land acquisition. The proposed area they are showing as the footprint is comprised of about 7 parcels, with 5 different owners, none of whom happen to be the developer. One of the parcels houses a 3 story apartment complex, and there are 2 real estate agencies and a couple of other businesses occupying other buildings. This would make a hell of a lot more sense if it was proposed on the Sentinel site. 

This site has been marketed for a while and one of the land owners (a broker) has already rallied his neighbors to sell. Assuming ownership has not changed, this will not be a hurdle. The bigger hurdle is selling new construction condos in downtown Orlando and the traffic impact on small streets in Eola south. adding in another use like OMA makes it more challenging. 

The convention and museum would work better on the sentinel site but the condos would never sell. 

[spenser1058]

4 minutes ago, jack said:

This site has been marketed for a while and one of the land owners (a broker) has already rallied his neighbors to sell. Assuming ownership has not changed, this will not be a hurdle. The bigger hurdle is selling new construction condos in downtown Orlando and the traffic impact on small streets in Eola south. adding in another use like OMA makes it more challenging. 

The convention and museum would work better on the sentinel site but the condos would never sell. 

So we’re going to destroy what’s special about the neighborhood so they can sell condos no one wants. Thanks for clearing that up.

[codypet]

I thought there was an L shaped render at one point that didn't wipe out St. Regis.  Either way Monarch or the Sentinel site or the two lots north of Fairwinds would work.

[jack]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

So we’re going to destroy what’s special about the neighborhood so they can sell condos no one wants. Thanks for clearing that up.

"We" are not destroying anything as this has as much chance of getting built as shown as you volunteering for Buddy Dyer's reelection campaign, it will never happen. 

5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

So we’re going to destroy what’s special about the neighborhood so they can sell condos no one wants. Thanks for clearing that up.

And the site I reviewed did not include St Regis. 

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, jack said:

"We" are not destroying anything as this has as much chance of getting built as shown as you volunteering for Buddy Dyer's reelection campaign, it will never happen. 

And the site I reviewed did not include St Regis. 

Touché!

Just now, spenser1058 said:

Touché!

It reminds me of the real estate agent who did her darndest to level Eola Heights during the Frederick era (Ann Williams?) so she could make a fortune off a nondescript rental property she had. May I never be so blinded by greed I can’t see the community’s interest. Then again, I guess that’s why I’d never make it as a realtor or developer.

 

 

[spenser1058]

23 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Touché!

It reminds me of the real estate agent who did her darndest to level Eola Heights during the Frederick era (Ann Williams?) so she could make a fortune off a nondescript rental property she had. May I never be so blinded by greed I can’t see the community’s interest. Then again, I guess that’s why I’d never make it as a realtor or developer.

 

 

Could it be that @jackis turning into a big ol’ softie? Yay! He’ll be my new hero!

[dcluley98]

10 hours ago, jack said:

"We" are not destroying anything as this has as much chance of getting built as shown as you volunteering for Buddy Dyer's reelection campaign, it will never happen. 

And the site I reviewed did not include St Regis. 

100% agree with this. That was my point in my post. It is highly doubtul that this gets built as proposed. The land purchase is still a hurdle, even if they get everyone to be "on board" with a sale. Mainly, the financing. Basically, the developer has to come up with an exorbitant sum of money up front to accomplish a sale like this in a hot real estate market with rising interest rates.  This IS going to be a hurdle, and the developer will need to do this with pre-sales and proforma that make the numbers work.  They would be paying a premium with unfavorable conditions and will have to find a METRIC BUTTLOAD of people willing to commit to buying those expensive condos to make it work. Probably never going to happen.

I still believe that the land purchase is a significant hurdle, especially as shown with the St. Regis eliminated. 

And what you added about having more stakeholders involved is a huge obstacle to getting this done.  Trying to make everybody happy in the end is extremely difficult to do with financial and design considerations involved. I believe these announcements were more about "hype" for the project to get people to buy in and grease the wheels of investment/finance.  This developer knows what they are doing on that front.  Having been involved in the AEC industry for quite a while, I recognize it for what it is.  There is nothing wrong with this, I actually expect this from developers. I am just saying nobody hold their breath on them getting this done as proposed. 

 

[FLheat]

9 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

I still believe that the land purchase is a significant hurdle, especially as shown with the St. Regis eliminated. 
 

I would think these companies have locked up options to purchase all these lots before making an announcement. This would give way too much leverage on price to a current landowner otherwise.

[JFW657]

I wonder what the height restriction is on buildings in that area.

A nice, small footprint, tall slender tower, maybe 40 stories, would be a great addition to that neighborhood.

With the St Regis sitting there right next to it to add some interesting contrast between the old and the new.