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5 minutes ago, Urbo said:

Yes, but can you explain what makes a place urban? One could argue Orlando is no way urban but that is just not a fair statement (just as stating Lake Nona is no way urban).

What? You want them to explain what makes a place Urban on Urban Planet ? 

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2 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

What? You want them to explain what makes a place Urban on Urban Planet ? 

To say that a place that clearly exhibits principles of urbanism, isn't urban i think warrants an explanation of what one considers urban (or maybe the comment was just meant to take a jab, but I saw it as a conversation started). It seems that some people believe urban is all about a geographical location or tall buildings. Which  just doesn't make sense. A place that has a mixed of uses, a variety in housing choices, walkable, multi-modal, a connected street layout, increased density, and quality design can be characterized as urban, and Lake Nona has all of those characteristics. The District of Columbia has no high rise buildings in the District and it is one of the most urban places in the world. There are countless towns and villages geographically located outside the city center of London that are urban. I understand that development may not be to our liking or personal preference but to rule it out as Not urban at all just isn't fair.

The way the some people who may live in Downtown Orlando look at Lake Nona as not being urban, is the same way that some people living in New York, D.C. Boston, or Philly could look at Orlando as not being urban which is just unfair. The beauty of Urbanism/urban places is that it takes many different shapes and form. There is no one way for a place to be urban.

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8 minutes ago, Urbo said:

To say that a place that clearly exhibits principles of urbanism, isn't urban i think warrants an explanation of what one considers urban (or maybe the comment was just meant to take a jab, but I saw it as a conversation started). It seems that some people believe urban is all about a geographical location or tall buildings. Which  just doesn't make sense. A place that has a mixed of uses, a variety in housing choices, walkable, multi-modal, a connected street layout, increased density, and quality design can be characterized as urban, and Lake Nona has all of those characteristics. The District of Columbia has no high rise buildings in the District and it is one of the most urban places in the world. There are countless towns and villages geographically located outside the city center of London that are urban. I understand that development may not be to our liking or personal preference but to rule it out as Not urban at all just isn't fair.

The way the some people who may live in Downtown Orlando look at Lake Nona as not being urban, is the same way that some people living in New York, D.C. Boston, or Philly could look at Orlando as not being urban which is just unfair. The beauty of Urbanism/urban places is that it takes many different shapes and form. There is no one way for a place to be urban.

Understandable. I will say one's idea of urban is subjective and that's okay. What you just explained as urban from city to city is exactly what I mean. If tall buildings in a central location offering multiple services and products for thousands at any given time  isn't urban to one than neither is a small village offering the same to a smaller amount of residents. 

 

You see it's just subjective. Lake Nona to someone from Orlando like myself is far from Urban. Orlando had a chance to get it right and still can't.  Urbanization should focus around the effectiveness of getting people to interact with what's available  at the minimal usage of vehicles as a primary option and Lake Nona doesn't do that in my opinion.  But how you explained yours is a difference in what we deem as urban. I thought the comment was a jab and a good one that truthfully shoes the lack of concern for  land use efficiency in Orlando city limits. 

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4 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Understandable. I will say one's idea of urban is subjective and that's okay. What you just explained as urban from city to city is exactly what I mean. If tall buildings in a central location offering multiple services and products for thousands at any given time  isn't urban to one than neither is a small village offering the same to a smaller amount of residents. 

 

You see it's just subjective. Lake Nona to someone from Orlando like myself is far from Urban. Orlando had a chance to get it right and still can't.  Urbanization should focus around the effectiveness of getting people to interact with what's available  at the minimal usage of vehicles as a primary option and Lake Nona doesn't do that in my opinion.  But how you explained yours is a difference in what we deem as urban. I thought the comment was a jab and a good one that truthfully shoes the lack of concern for  land use efficiency in Orlando city limits. 

Great points. I agree, and would say "Good Urbanism" is subjective. Let it be known, if we were to be having a general conversation about urban places and urbanization in America or the world, Lake Nona would never come up (and likely not Orlando either). But in regards to Central Florida its my belief that Lake Nona will do more good than harm in the long term. At some point it will force the city to think about expanding rail towards the area and Tavistock is already making efforts to increase height limits (currently looking to increase height limits to 30 stories in some areas) and they have land use categories of Urban Transit within their master plan to keep them focused on mobility. Its just the beginning. Just as there was a point in time in the not so distant past that SunRail didn't exist urbanization has to start from somewhere. Change can happen fast and I think many people will be surprised over the next decade.

I use to have similar sentiments about Orlando that people have of Lake Nona not being urban, especially after living in places like Miami, Atlanta and D.C. but I've learned to appreciate the urban environments that Orlando has to offer even if they aren't to my specific taste. I'm rooting for the growth of the core of Orlando just as much as I root for growth and development of Lake Nona because it all feeds into the progress of the city as a whole. I'm under the belief that different strategies and accomplish the same goal. But yes in a perfect work, all growth would start and continue from the core, but realistically that's just not possible at times as Business and Politics always will trump urban theory.

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23 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Understandable. I will say one's idea of urban is subjective and that's okay. What you just explained as urban from city to city is exactly what I mean. If tall buildings in a central location offering multiple services and products for thousands at any given time  isn't urban to one than neither is a small village offering the same to a smaller amount of residents. 

 

You see it's just subjective. Lake Nona to someone from Orlando like myself is far from Urban. Orlando had a chance to get it right and still can't.  Urbanization should focus around the effectiveness of getting people to interact with what's available  at the minimal usage of vehicles as a primary option and Lake Nona doesn't do that in my opinion.  But how you explained yours is a difference in what we deem as urban. I thought the comment was a jab and a good one that truthfully shoes the lack of concern for  land use efficiency in Orlando city limits. 

The part that gets me is I see people saying areas like Deland, Winter Park, Winter Garden, etc are urban, while Lake Nona is not. While I don't know if enough of Lake Nona's "downtown" is complete enough yet for me to call it urban, it seems to me that it is just so obviously on its way there... If you want to say the only part of Central Florida that is urban is downtown Orlando, fine, but if you're saying other regions in Central Florida are urban too.... I don't see how you could leave Lake Nona out, or at the very least not recognize its well on its way to being as urban as these other locations...

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16 minutes ago, bqknight said:

You all think Lake Nona is walkable? What? Am I missing something? The vast majority of people who like in Lake Nona live in subdivisions that are only accessible by cars and expressways.

Yes, one can easily walk from laurate park to town center no problem. One can also walk to a great restaurants in Canvas, Park Pizza, Chroma, etc. , they can walk their children to a elementary school and preschool. They can walk to multiple small parks, a large park with soccer fields thats packed on the weekends with kids and parents, and a water/adventure park with a stage for small performances. One can walk to a state of the art performance club. There is a barber shop and hair salon in the town center that one can walk to. There is a foxtail coffee, cycle club, yoga studio, eyecare shop and more places to eat under Pixon apartments that you can walk to. They have the option to walk to many employers in the area if their job is close by. There are universities that one can walk to. Hell, one can even walk to the hospital if they wanted to lol. To be honest, I live in lake nona and the only time I move my car is if I absolutely have to travel outside of lake nona for any reason which is not too often. Almost everything I mentioned I walk to (haircut, fitness center, restaurants and bars, coffee shops, parks, etc.). It will even become more walkable once more entertainment and retail options hit the town center. I think those doubting Lake Nona is urban really haven't experience the true lake nona. It may not be at the scale of most urban places, but its still very urban in may ways. You can also say the very same thing about the core of orlando, many people living in the core are not walking. But the neighborhoods adjacent to downtown are walkable just as the neighborhoods like Village walk, laureate park and the urban district (currently consisting of Pixon and Landon House) in Lake Nona are walkable.

Edited by Urbo
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Lake Nona is not urban. Great place to live, cool town center, and nice architecture? Yes to all. But it’s not urban at all.

 

I also don’t agree that urbanity is subjective. The concept according to world-renowned leaders and authorities in urban planning (Richard Florida for example) posit that urbanity revolves around non-sprawl, density, walkability, things like food, shops, amenities etc in close proximity, public transportation, gridded streets, and anything that encourages people to live, work, and play in one area without necessitating a vehicle. 
 

The entire area of Lake Nona is an enormous suburb with a town center. 95% of Lake Nona is not any of the things mentioned in the previous paragraph. If Lake Nona is urban, that means Avalon Park, Oviedo, Celebration, Winter Park etc are all urban and I think most of us can agree that just isn’t true.

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2 hours ago, Urbo said:

To say that a place that clearly exhibits principles of urbanism, isn't urban i think warrants an explanation of what one considers urban (or maybe the comment was just meant to take a jab, but I saw it as a conversation started). It seems that some people believe urban is all about a geographical location or tall buildings. Which  just doesn't make sense. A place that has a mixed of uses, a variety in housing choices, walkable, multi-modal, a connected street layout, increased density, and quality design can be characterized as urban, and Lake Nona has all of those characteristics. The District of Columbia has no high rise buildings in the District and it is one of the most urban places in the world. There are countless towns and villages geographically located outside the city center of London that are urban. I understand that development may not be to our liking or personal preference but to rule it out as Not urban at all just isn't fair.

The way the some people who may live in Downtown Orlando look at Lake Nona as not being urban, is the same way that some people living in New York, D.C. Boston, or Philly could look at Orlando as not being urban which is just unfair. The beauty of Urbanism/urban places is that it takes many different shapes and form. There is no one way for a place to be urban.

In all that, I think the key is the very last sentence that you said. Places can be Urban based on their geographical location and offerings. Orlando is spread out very very far from east to west and north to south as far as the metro area is concerned. Downtown Orlando can be considered Urban for our metro. But let's say there is another Metro that is less spread out with more people. Anybody from that Metro may come down here and say well there's nothing Urban about this particular area just because of how their area helps to find the word Urban with their offerings .

 

But Lake Nona is an extension of a city that is suburban in nature with Central City aspirations that just have not come together yet. The entire focus of the central part of Lake Nona is still 100% given to the car. But long-term it could become an urban hub for that area I do think that is true.

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1 minute ago, Uncommon said:

Lake Nona is not urban. Great place to live, cool town center, and nice architecture? Yes to all. But it’s not urban at all.

 

I also don’t agree that urbanity is subjective. The concept according to world-renowned leaders and authorities in urban planning (Richard Florida for example) posit that urbanity revolves around non-sprawl, density, walkability, things like food, shops, amenities etc in close proximity, public transportation, gridded streets, and anything that encourages people to live, work, and play in one area without necessitating a vehicle. 
 

The entire area of Lake Nona is an enormous suburb with a town center. 95% of Lake Nona is not any of the things mentioned in the previous paragraph. If Lake Nona is urban, that means Avalon Park, Oviedo, Celebration, Winter Park etc are all urban and I think most of us can agree that just isn’t true.

I agree with you that urbanity is not subjective, but whether you feel it is "good urbanity" is subjective because we all have are personal preferences (some people like old town character, some like new and modern style). No matter if its Old Urbanism or New Urbanism its still Urban. I would argue Andres Duany is more of an expert in Urban planning than Richard Florida (and i have much respect for Richard and enjoy his readings and talks). Duany has proven that not only can sprawl be repaired but it can be avoided without limiting development boundaries through proper planning and design.

Sprawl is defined as more of a development pattern/style rather than a location (sprawl equals separation of uses, disconnected streets, oversized lots, excessive parking,  auto-oriented frontages, lack of amenities, lack of integrated civic institutions, lack of coordinated open spaces, etc.).  Lake Nona (town center, laurate park, village walk, urban district) checks more urban boxes than sprawl boxes when referencing the characteristics above. Everything I mentioned previously about the ability to walk in lake nona , the mixes of uses, etc makes it urban. Does it rate as high on the urban scale compared to Downtown, no it doesn't. But that doesn't negate the fact that its still urban.

Also Lake Nona does have gridded streets (and will have an even more developed grid plan with time. see below) and does offer the ability to live work and play (which I do) without so much reliant on a car (realistically, unless you are in the northeast US majority of people need a car everywhere else in the states). Whether people actually walk is more of a matter of car culture, but the fabric of Lake Nona does allow for one to live, work and play without relying so much on a car (I'm a testament to it). I do understand it not being considered the prototype of urbanity but I don't understand why its not considered Urban at all.

image.png.7646869e9423ddfca11a0717e8ed1160.png

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Two parcels in LN seeking approval for height increase up to 30 stories and several other seeking an increase from 10 stories to 20 stories .  

562CA804-51EE-4241-9308-429F3410574E.png

Lake Nona has energy.  The density will come.

Edited by tm68
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49 minutes ago, tm68 said:

Two parcels in LN seeking approval for height increase up to 30 stories and several other seeking an increase from 10 stories to 20 stories .  

562CA804-51EE-4241-9308-429F3410574E.png

Lake Nona has energy.  The density will come.

This bothers me. Gosh I hate Lake Nona 

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4 hours ago, Urbo said:

I agree with you that urbanity is not subjective, but whether you feel it is "good urbanity" is subjective because we all have are personal preferences (some people like old town character, some like new and modern style). No matter if its Old Urbanism or New Urbanism its still Urban. I would argue Andres Duany is more of an expert in Urban planning than Richard Florida (and i have much respect for Richard and enjoy his readings and talks). Duany has proven that not only can sprawl be repaired but it can be avoided without limiting development boundaries through proper planning and design.

Sprawl is defined as more of a development pattern/style rather than a location (sprawl equals separation of uses, disconnected streets, oversized lots, excessive parking,  auto-oriented frontages, lack of amenities, lack of integrated civic institutions, lack of coordinated open spaces, etc.).  Lake Nona (town center, laurate park, village walk, urban district) checks more urban boxes than sprawl boxes when referencing the characteristics above. Everything I mentioned previously about the ability to walk in lake nona , the mixes of uses, etc makes it urban. Does it rate as high on the urban scale compared to Downtown, no it doesn't. But that doesn't negate the fact that its still urban.

Also Lake Nona does have gridded streets (and will have an even more developed grid plan with time. see below) and does offer the ability to live work and play (which I do) without so much reliant on a car (realistically, unless you are in the northeast US majority of people need a car everywhere else in the states). Whether people actually walk is more of a matter of car culture, but the fabric of Lake Nona does allow for one to live, work and play without relying so much on a car (I'm a testament to it). I do understand it not being considered the prototype of urbanity but I don't understand why its not considered Urban at all.

image.png.7646869e9423ddfca11a0717e8ed1160.png

This image and the your previous post represent less than a 10th of the land mass of Lake Nona. Everything on Narcoossee is part of Lake Nona

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1 hour ago, jack said:

This image and the your previous post represent less than a 10th of the land mass of Lake Nona. Everything on Narcoossee is part of Lake Nona

Narcoossee is not the Main Street for Lake Nona and shouldn't represent it’s urban identity. Almost the same as saying colonial drive represents the urban identity of Downtown. Narcosseee is not the core of Lake Nona. And while it needs a lot of work, pound for pound it’s not that much different than colonial drive. 

Lake Nona is not trying to replace downtown. It’s simply an urban addition to Orlando. Every other major city has multiple urban nodes. Why can’t Lake Nona be an additional urban node of Orlando and be a compliment to Downtown Orlando?  
 

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8 hours ago, codypet said:

Anyone else see Parliament house is moving into the City Arts building?  Whoever said they didn't want to see it become a bar, I have bad news for you.

The bars just keep moving further down Orange Ave. It’s like kudzu crowding out Southern forests. Not to worry - City Hall is almost 30 years old now and Buddy can replace it with a new one… at Lake Nona!

Edited by spenser1058
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11 hours ago, codypet said:

Anyone else see Parliament house is moving into the City Arts building?  Whoever said they didn't want to see it become a bar, I have bad news for you.

 

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

You got scooped Spense. :tw_lol:  When I mentioned it yesterday and noticed no comment, I thought I had a fever dream about it.  Unfortunate because they made the inside of that place look a lot nicer after Bar Orlando closed.

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35 minutes ago, codypet said:

 

You got scooped Spense. :tw_lol:  When I mentioned it yesterday and noticed no comment, I thought I had a fever dream about it.  Unfortunate because they made the inside of that place look a lot nicer after Bar Orlando closed.

Yep, sorry about that - I was trying to stay out of the Lake Nona Wars and didn’t keep up with the thread. I’ve decided to accept Nona as our destiny unless we change course in a different administration after 2023. We can be like Brevard who moved most of its courthouse functions to Viera years ago and Seminole who moved most of county government out of downtown Sanford. It seems to be a thing with Republican and Republican-lite types. 

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11 hours ago, Urbo said:

Narcoossee is not the Main Street for Lake Nona and shouldn't represent it’s urban identity. Almost the same as saying colonial drive represents the urban identity of Downtown. Narcosseee is not the core of Lake Nona. And while it needs a lot of work, pound for pound it’s not that much different than colonial drive. 

Lake Nona is not trying to replace downtown. It’s simply an urban addition to Orlando. Every other major city has multiple urban nodes. Why can’t Lake Nona be an additional urban node of Orlando and be a compliment to Downtown Orlando?  
 

The boundaries for Lake Nona, by the company that created Lake Nona are more expansive then you are saying. You are excluding the typical subdivisions and strip malls to focus on the urban. 

 

https://www.lakenona.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/LN_CommunityGuide11Ed_v8_map-only.pdf

 

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6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The bars just keep moving further down Orange Ave. It’s like kudzu crowding out Southern forests. Not to worry - City Hall is almost 30 years old now and Buddy can replace it with a new one… at Lake Nona!

I for one am excited that Parliament House is moving downtown. Should help draw a different audience to Orange Ave. that may have not already been there. Of course, will depend on how they execute the space. 

In their FB announcement, they also said more announcements to come, wonder what it will be! 

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3 minutes ago, bqknight said:

I for one am excited that Parliament House is moving downtown. Should help draw a different audience to Orange Ave. that may have not already been there. Of course, will depend on how they execute the space. 

In their FB announcement, they also said more announcements to come, wonder what it will be! 

I certainly would welcome PH downtown and getting Footlights up and running again is a definite plus. I’m just not sure that more wild and crazy bars cheek by jowl with the symphony crowd is going to go well. Downtown already has a disreputable reputation among the suburbanites who only know the bar stretch along Orange. I hope it works.

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3 hours ago, jack said:

The boundaries for Lake Nona, by the company that created Lake Nona are more expansive then you are saying. You are excluding the typical subdivisions and strip malls to focus on the urban. 

 

https://www.lakenona.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/LN_CommunityGuide11Ed_v8_map-only.pdf

 

Errm, you want to look at the city limits for, like, nearly any city? Narcossee, according to their map, is their eastern border, and everything on one side of the street are not even part of Lake Nona. Any talk about the "urban" Lake Nona is no doubt referring to the area around Lake Nona Blvd south of 417.

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