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16 minutes ago, bqknight said:

You all think Lake Nona is walkable? What? Am I missing something? The vast majority of people who like in Lake Nona live in subdivisions that are only accessible by cars and expressways.

Yes, one can easily walk from laurate park to town center no problem. One can also walk to a great restaurants in Canvas, Park Pizza, Chroma, etc. , they can walk their children to a elementary school and preschool. They can walk to multiple small parks, a large park with soccer fields thats packed on the weekends with kids and parents, and a water/adventure park with a stage for small performances. One can walk to a state of the art performance club. There is a barber shop and hair salon in the town center that one can walk to. There is a foxtail coffee, cycle club, yoga studio, eyecare shop and more places to eat under Pixon apartments that you can walk to. They have the option to walk to many employers in the area if their job is close by. There are universities that one can walk to. Hell, one can even walk to the hospital if they wanted to lol. To be honest, I live in lake nona and the only time I move my car is if I absolutely have to travel outside of lake nona for any reason which is not too often. Almost everything I mentioned I walk to (haircut, fitness center, restaurants and bars, coffee shops, parks, etc.). It will even become more walkable once more entertainment and retail options hit the town center. I think those doubting Lake Nona is urban really haven't experience the true lake nona. It may not be at the scale of most urban places, but its still very urban in may ways. You can also say the very same thing about the core of orlando, many people living in the core are not walking. But the neighborhoods adjacent to downtown are walkable just as the neighborhoods like Village walk, laureate park and the urban district (currently consisting of Pixon and Landon House) in Lake Nona are walkable.

Edited by Urbo
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Lake Nona is not urban. Great place to live, cool town center, and nice architecture? Yes to all. But it’s not urban at all.

 

I also don’t agree that urbanity is subjective. The concept according to world-renowned leaders and authorities in urban planning (Richard Florida for example) posit that urbanity revolves around non-sprawl, density, walkability, things like food, shops, amenities etc in close proximity, public transportation, gridded streets, and anything that encourages people to live, work, and play in one area without necessitating a vehicle. 
 

The entire area of Lake Nona is an enormous suburb with a town center. 95% of Lake Nona is not any of the things mentioned in the previous paragraph. If Lake Nona is urban, that means Avalon Park, Oviedo, Celebration, Winter Park etc are all urban and I think most of us can agree that just isn’t true.

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2 hours ago, Urbo said:

To say that a place that clearly exhibits principles of urbanism, isn't urban i think warrants an explanation of what one considers urban (or maybe the comment was just meant to take a jab, but I saw it as a conversation started). It seems that some people believe urban is all about a geographical location or tall buildings. Which  just doesn't make sense. A place that has a mixed of uses, a variety in housing choices, walkable, multi-modal, a connected street layout, increased density, and quality design can be characterized as urban, and Lake Nona has all of those characteristics. The District of Columbia has no high rise buildings in the District and it is one of the most urban places in the world. There are countless towns and villages geographically located outside the city center of London that are urban. I understand that development may not be to our liking or personal preference but to rule it out as Not urban at all just isn't fair.

The way the some people who may live in Downtown Orlando look at Lake Nona as not being urban, is the same way that some people living in New York, D.C. Boston, or Philly could look at Orlando as not being urban which is just unfair. The beauty of Urbanism/urban places is that it takes many different shapes and form. There is no one way for a place to be urban.

In all that, I think the key is the very last sentence that you said. Places can be Urban based on their geographical location and offerings. Orlando is spread out very very far from east to west and north to south as far as the metro area is concerned. Downtown Orlando can be considered Urban for our metro. But let's say there is another Metro that is less spread out with more people. Anybody from that Metro may come down here and say well there's nothing Urban about this particular area just because of how their area helps to find the word Urban with their offerings .

 

But Lake Nona is an extension of a city that is suburban in nature with Central City aspirations that just have not come together yet. The entire focus of the central part of Lake Nona is still 100% given to the car. But long-term it could become an urban hub for that area I do think that is true.

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1 minute ago, Uncommon said:

Lake Nona is not urban. Great place to live, cool town center, and nice architecture? Yes to all. But it’s not urban at all.

 

I also don’t agree that urbanity is subjective. The concept according to world-renowned leaders and authorities in urban planning (Richard Florida for example) posit that urbanity revolves around non-sprawl, density, walkability, things like food, shops, amenities etc in close proximity, public transportation, gridded streets, and anything that encourages people to live, work, and play in one area without necessitating a vehicle. 
 

The entire area of Lake Nona is an enormous suburb with a town center. 95% of Lake Nona is not any of the things mentioned in the previous paragraph. If Lake Nona is urban, that means Avalon Park, Oviedo, Celebration, Winter Park etc are all urban and I think most of us can agree that just isn’t true.

I agree with you that urbanity is not subjective, but whether you feel it is "good urbanity" is subjective because we all have are personal preferences (some people like old town character, some like new and modern style). No matter if its Old Urbanism or New Urbanism its still Urban. I would argue Andres Duany is more of an expert in Urban planning than Richard Florida (and i have much respect for Richard and enjoy his readings and talks). Duany has proven that not only can sprawl be repaired but it can be avoided without limiting development boundaries through proper planning and design.

Sprawl is defined as more of a development pattern/style rather than a location (sprawl equals separation of uses, disconnected streets, oversized lots, excessive parking,  auto-oriented frontages, lack of amenities, lack of integrated civic institutions, lack of coordinated open spaces, etc.).  Lake Nona (town center, laurate park, village walk, urban district) checks more urban boxes than sprawl boxes when referencing the characteristics above. Everything I mentioned previously about the ability to walk in lake nona , the mixes of uses, etc makes it urban. Does it rate as high on the urban scale compared to Downtown, no it doesn't. But that doesn't negate the fact that its still urban.

Also Lake Nona does have gridded streets (and will have an even more developed grid plan with time. see below) and does offer the ability to live work and play (which I do) without so much reliant on a car (realistically, unless you are in the northeast US majority of people need a car everywhere else in the states). Whether people actually walk is more of a matter of car culture, but the fabric of Lake Nona does allow for one to live, work and play without relying so much on a car (I'm a testament to it). I do understand it not being considered the prototype of urbanity but I don't understand why its not considered Urban at all.

image.png.7646869e9423ddfca11a0717e8ed1160.png

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4 hours ago, Urbo said:

I agree with you that urbanity is not subjective, but whether you feel it is "good urbanity" is subjective because we all have are personal preferences (some people like old town character, some like new and modern style). No matter if its Old Urbanism or New Urbanism its still Urban. I would argue Andres Duany is more of an expert in Urban planning than Richard Florida (and i have much respect for Richard and enjoy his readings and talks). Duany has proven that not only can sprawl be repaired but it can be avoided without limiting development boundaries through proper planning and design.

Sprawl is defined as more of a development pattern/style rather than a location (sprawl equals separation of uses, disconnected streets, oversized lots, excessive parking,  auto-oriented frontages, lack of amenities, lack of integrated civic institutions, lack of coordinated open spaces, etc.).  Lake Nona (town center, laurate park, village walk, urban district) checks more urban boxes than sprawl boxes when referencing the characteristics above. Everything I mentioned previously about the ability to walk in lake nona , the mixes of uses, etc makes it urban. Does it rate as high on the urban scale compared to Downtown, no it doesn't. But that doesn't negate the fact that its still urban.

Also Lake Nona does have gridded streets (and will have an even more developed grid plan with time. see below) and does offer the ability to live work and play (which I do) without so much reliant on a car (realistically, unless you are in the northeast US majority of people need a car everywhere else in the states). Whether people actually walk is more of a matter of car culture, but the fabric of Lake Nona does allow for one to live, work and play without relying so much on a car (I'm a testament to it). I do understand it not being considered the prototype of urbanity but I don't understand why its not considered Urban at all.

image.png.7646869e9423ddfca11a0717e8ed1160.png

This image and the your previous post represent less than a 10th of the land mass of Lake Nona. Everything on Narcoossee is part of Lake Nona

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1 hour ago, jack said:

This image and the your previous post represent less than a 10th of the land mass of Lake Nona. Everything on Narcoossee is part of Lake Nona

Narcoossee is not the Main Street for Lake Nona and shouldn't represent it’s urban identity. Almost the same as saying colonial drive represents the urban identity of Downtown. Narcosseee is not the core of Lake Nona. And while it needs a lot of work, pound for pound it’s not that much different than colonial drive. 

Lake Nona is not trying to replace downtown. It’s simply an urban addition to Orlando. Every other major city has multiple urban nodes. Why can’t Lake Nona be an additional urban node of Orlando and be a compliment to Downtown Orlando?  
 

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8 hours ago, codypet said:

Anyone else see Parliament house is moving into the City Arts building?  Whoever said they didn't want to see it become a bar, I have bad news for you.

The bars just keep moving further down Orange Ave. It’s like kudzu crowding out Southern forests. Not to worry - City Hall is almost 30 years old now and Buddy can replace it with a new one… at Lake Nona!

Edited by spenser1058
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11 hours ago, codypet said:

Anyone else see Parliament house is moving into the City Arts building?  Whoever said they didn't want to see it become a bar, I have bad news for you.

 

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

You got scooped Spense. :tw_lol:  When I mentioned it yesterday and noticed no comment, I thought I had a fever dream about it.  Unfortunate because they made the inside of that place look a lot nicer after Bar Orlando closed.

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35 minutes ago, codypet said:

 

You got scooped Spense. :tw_lol:  When I mentioned it yesterday and noticed no comment, I thought I had a fever dream about it.  Unfortunate because they made the inside of that place look a lot nicer after Bar Orlando closed.

Yep, sorry about that - I was trying to stay out of the Lake Nona Wars and didn’t keep up with the thread. I’ve decided to accept Nona as our destiny unless we change course in a different administration after 2023. We can be like Brevard who moved most of its courthouse functions to Viera years ago and Seminole who moved most of county government out of downtown Sanford. It seems to be a thing with Republican and Republican-lite types. 

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11 hours ago, Urbo said:

Narcoossee is not the Main Street for Lake Nona and shouldn't represent it’s urban identity. Almost the same as saying colonial drive represents the urban identity of Downtown. Narcosseee is not the core of Lake Nona. And while it needs a lot of work, pound for pound it’s not that much different than colonial drive. 

Lake Nona is not trying to replace downtown. It’s simply an urban addition to Orlando. Every other major city has multiple urban nodes. Why can’t Lake Nona be an additional urban node of Orlando and be a compliment to Downtown Orlando?  
 

The boundaries for Lake Nona, by the company that created Lake Nona are more expansive then you are saying. You are excluding the typical subdivisions and strip malls to focus on the urban. 

 

https://www.lakenona.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/LN_CommunityGuide11Ed_v8_map-only.pdf

 

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6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

The bars just keep moving further down Orange Ave. It’s like kudzu crowding out Southern forests. Not to worry - City Hall is almost 30 years old now and Buddy can replace it with a new one… at Lake Nona!

I for one am excited that Parliament House is moving downtown. Should help draw a different audience to Orange Ave. that may have not already been there. Of course, will depend on how they execute the space. 

In their FB announcement, they also said more announcements to come, wonder what it will be! 

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3 minutes ago, bqknight said:

I for one am excited that Parliament House is moving downtown. Should help draw a different audience to Orange Ave. that may have not already been there. Of course, will depend on how they execute the space. 

In their FB announcement, they also said more announcements to come, wonder what it will be! 

I certainly would welcome PH downtown and getting Footlights up and running again is a definite plus. I’m just not sure that more wild and crazy bars cheek by jowl with the symphony crowd is going to go well. Downtown already has a disreputable reputation among the suburbanites who only know the bar stretch along Orange. I hope it works.

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3 hours ago, jack said:

The boundaries for Lake Nona, by the company that created Lake Nona are more expansive then you are saying. You are excluding the typical subdivisions and strip malls to focus on the urban. 

 

https://www.lakenona.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/LN_CommunityGuide11Ed_v8_map-only.pdf

 

Errm, you want to look at the city limits for, like, nearly any city? Narcossee, according to their map, is their eastern border, and everything on one side of the street are not even part of Lake Nona. Any talk about the "urban" Lake Nona is no doubt referring to the area around Lake Nona Blvd south of 417.

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20 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I certainly would welcome PH downtown and getting Footlights up and running again is a definite plus. I’m just not sure that more wild and crazy bars cheek by jowl with the symphony crowd is going to go well. Downtown already has a disreputable reputation among the suburbanites who only know the bar stretch along Orange. I hope it works.

Let's be honest, the city has done a very good job of keeping DPAC in relative isolation from the rest of downtown by not pushing the original vision for the complex forward when they had the chance.

One may technically be downtown when at DPAC, but you are still several blocks away from any noticeable nightlife.  Theatre and Symphony attendees can get off I-4 at South Street, parking in one of several garages, walk to/fro the theatres, and go home without ever interacting with the downtown crowd.  I suspect many do that very thing.

 

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10 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Let's be honest, the city has done a very good job of keeping DPAC in relative isolation from the rest of downtown by not pushing the original vision for the complex forward when they had the chance.

One may technically be downtown when at DPAC, but you are still several blocks away from any noticeable nightlife.  Theatre and Symphony attendees can get off I-4 at South Street, parking in one of several garages, walk to/fro the theatres, and go home without ever interacting with the downtown crowd.  I suspect many do that very thing.

 

Exactly. And that is precisely what wasn’t supposed to happen when they decided to move the Arena and PAC out of Expo Centre. Instead, folks would wander downtown. If the bar district continues to move south,  it’s likely to exacerbate a trend we supposedly were fixing.

I suspect that’s one reason we were already seeing a decline in activity in that section of downtown even before COVID hit.

It’s probably no accident that Thomas Chatmon moved the title “Main & Main” up to Colonial and magically stopped referring to Orange and Church that way.

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I don't see how the bar scene gravitates further south from Church/Orange given the pre-existing landscape (Bohemian Hotel, City Hall, Methodist Church, etc.). 

What we aren't seeing is an effort to build on the parcels around DPAC and bring in the type of development that would be complementary to the front door of City Hall and an arts center.  

 

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1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

I don't see how the bar scene gravitates further south from Church/Orange given the pre-existing landscape (Bohemian Hotel, City Hall, Methodist Church, etc.). 

What we aren't seeing is an effort to build on the parcels around DPAC and bring in the type of development that would be complementary to the front door of City Hall and an arts center.  

 

I mean gravitating down Orange and filling in the spots north of Church. Downtown is already fighting its reputation for the bars three blocks north - if it gets any closer, that’s going to be even more of a challenge.

There are already too many of the “under 25” bars downtown and it’s one reason why retailers and even developers have commented on it.

The Am and DPCPA were supposed to reverse that trend and it didn’t happen. Many of us believe that’s a significant reason why.

There’s more than enough room downtown for everyone but it won’t work if families and empty nesters don’t think they fit. Keeping some space between very different revelers helps with that.

Edited by spenser1058
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On 7/29/2021 at 2:21 PM, AndyPok1 said:

This is an ad-nauseum argument in here.  Orlando's DT is a restaurant/bar/event/residential downtown.  With the additions of the residential buildings and the lower amount of office workers, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more people living than working in DT.  And I'll take that over the opposite every damn day.  CBDs where every restaurant closes by 3PM and is a ghost town by 6 is miserable.

Very good point. NYT had a great article a few weeks back about the vulnerability of downtown office districts. They said many downtowns were created through subtraction..."First residents left the center city, then the craftsmen and wholesalers, then the museums, theaters and smaller retailers, and — the final blow — the department stores." which left behind a monoculture that was only alive 10 hours a day 5 days a week. 

The article says successful downtowns are, "evolving away from strictly office space, adding college dorms, apartment buildings and civic attractions. Cities where “downtown” has increasingly come to mean more than offices are likely to be more resilient as they emerge from the pandemic..."

There is a great graphic (below) that shows the percentage of office, retail, hotel, residential and other for many major cities. Boston has 83% office space while St Pete has 25% (Orlando or Tampa are not listed).  To my eye Portland seems to have a great mix of about 40/10/10/30/10. I think what makes up the "other" category is important and I would hope it is event driven such as sports/ performance venues, museums, etc. since those things bring more feet downtown and fill the hotel beds (and spend money).

As I said, Orlando data is not shown. Anyone care to take a swing at how our percentages line up? Btw, if anyone is not aware, Mayor Hood is the mother of downtown residential as the previous administrations frowned on it.

Note: NYT "adopted CoStar’s definition of the downtown or central business real estate market in each of the 50 largest metropolitan areas (for the biggest cities, we combined markets like the East, West and Central Loop in Chicago). We excluded cities where these boundaries encompass substantial nearby single-family housing, which CoStar does not track."

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/07/07/upshot/downtown-office-vulnerable-even-before-covid.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=The Upshot

Capture.JPG

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On 7/31/2021 at 9:22 AM, spenser1058 said:

Exactly. And that is precisely what wasn’t supposed to happen when they decided to move the Arena and PAC out of Expo Centre. Instead, folks would wander downtown. If the bar district continues to move south,  it’s likely to exacerbate a trend we supposedly were fixing.

I suspect that’s one reason we were already seeing a decline in activity in that section of downtown even before COVID hit.

It’s probably no accident that Thomas Chatmon moved the title “Main & Main” up to Colonial and magically stopped referring to Orange and Church that way.

Main & Main was a moniker coined by Buddy and Cameron to demolish buildings at Orange/Church to build the Plaza.

I’ve never really heard it referred to in another context.

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21 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

Main & Main was a moniker coined by Buddy and Cameron to demolish buildings at Orange/Church to build the Plaza.

I’ve never really heard it referred to in another context.

 Beside the fact it was wrong in its first use (and over the years has even been quoted here on UP), it was even more wrong in its use to describe the Sentinel property.

It grated on my nerves each time because it’s never been factual. We expect that kind of nonsense from developers, not our elected officials.

Of course, in the age of Trump, where the two were conflated, it probably shouldn’t be a surprise. In Orlando, I hoped for better, but I guess we’re back to the days when the town was advertised as “mosquito-free”.

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1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

 Beside the fact it was wrong in its first use (and over the years has even been quoted here on UP), it was even more wrong in its use to describe the Sentinel property.

It grated on my nerves each time because it’s never been factual. We expect that kind of nonsense from developers, not our elected officials.

Of course, in the age of Trump, where the two were conflated, it probably shouldn’t be a surprise. In Orlando, I hoped for better, but I guess we’re back to the days when the town was advertised as “mosquito-free”.

Not really. 


I’m no Buddy defender and believe in term limits however this idea that Orlando is transgressing into some backwater Apopka pit is hard to understand.

This narrative here that downtown Orlando is on life support is perplexing. Is it because Tampa has the Water Street development and Tampa is a city that actually needs to have a seemingly developed downtown while Orlando has had one all along?

Much of what is built in downtown Orlando is infill development whereas in Tampa, a downtown of parking lots, is building from the ground up.

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