Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[AmIReal]

4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

I haven’t attended a Magic game since the DeVos family brought their evil ways to town. 

Yet you still shop at Publix...

[spenser1058]

3 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Yet you still shop at Publix...

But a lot less now than I used to (thanks, Target!) Sadly, no organization or company, like no person, is perfect. It’s like the decision to remain friends or not when someone does you wrong.

If Publix left downtown Orlando tomorrow, there’s a lot about them I’d miss and their part of the fabric in the development of Central Florida (since the chain is likely too large to be sold to anyone but a PEF, that makes their possible demise likely even worse).

If the DeVos family sold the franchise tomorrow, would we miss them and their ineptitude? I certainly wouldn’t. The new owners might even share the values of the city, which would be a major improvement. The Magic had a great owner in Bill duPont. One day, maybe we’ll have that again.

Until then , the name on the Arena remains an outfit that goes to incredible lengths not to tell you who they are when they try to recruit you into the scheme that made the family billionaires. Mr. George and Publix never had to hide their business.

Edited October 17, 2021 by spenser1058

[nite owℓ]

On 10/17/2021 at 12:06 PM, AmIReal said:

Yet you still shop at Publix...

I've always enjoyed teasing spenser about his love/hate affair w/Publix. I felt the same way about Chick Fil A for a long time...  but they eventually reeled in some of their rhetoric and at the end of the day if you dig deep enough no company is perfect... just comes down to how much problematic behavior you can stomach before you lose your "appetite" again lol.

Edited October 18, 2021 by nite owℓ

[AmIReal]

5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

But a lot less now than I used to (thanks, Target!) Sadly, no organization or company, like no person, is perfect. It’s like the decision to remain friends or not when someone does you wrong.

If Publix left downtown Orlando tomorrow, there’s a lot about them I’d miss and their part of the fabric in the development of Central Florida (since the chain is likely too large to be sold to anyone but a PEF, that makes their possible demise likely even worse).

If the DeVos family sold the franchise tomorrow, would we miss them and their ineptitude? I certainly wouldn’t. The new owners might even share the values of the city, which would be a major improvement. The Magic had a great owner in Bill duPont. One day, maybe we’ll have that again.

Until then , the name on the Arena remains an outfit that goes to incredible lengths not to tell you who they are when they try to recruit you into the scheme that made the family billionaires. Mr. George and Publix never had to hide their business.

I think my point is, as @nite owℓpoints out above, no company will likely tick all your boxes, but you try to do your best where you can. I'm just always surprised you take such glee in pumping up and promoting Publix.

Btw, the Magic 1st season began Nov. '89 and Dupont was the owner. DeVos bought them in Sept. '91. In his 2 years of ownership, I don't think Dupont left much imprint on the team or the city (other than the BOA building), but the Hewitt's, and to a lesser extent, Pat Williams left a sizable fingerprint on the community.

Also, Mr. George is dead. However, https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-ne-publix-heiress-jan6-rally-20211016-xi3ipicqbja6bbm34n7iobojaa-story.html

[codypet]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:51 PM, spenser1058 said:

Buddy’s almost as good a mayor as the Magic are a basketball team! 

No why'd you have to go and bring the Magic into this?  I'm hurting enough with UCF's record this year.

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, codypet said:

No why'd you have to go and bring the Magic into this?  I'm hurting enough with UCF's record this year.

At least Terry and Gus seem to like public education and aren’t trying to sign everyone up for an unnamed (yet outstanding!) multilevel marketing opportunity…(and as rough as things are, UCF still has a decent shot at 8-4 this year instead of 21-51).

Edited October 18, 2021 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Lots of updates on problems from the old Parliament House and the new version downtown (it’s probably best not to hold your breath on that…)

Ex-Parliament House manager faces trial over unpaid sales tax
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-prem-et-parliament-house-taxes-trial-20211019-wr5sdz7pxjfyphe6c7c4oq65o4-story.html

From Matt Palm at the Sentinel 

[bqknight]

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Lots of updates on problems from the old Parliament House and the new version downtown (it’s probably best not to hold your breath on that…)

Ex-Parliament House manager faces trial over unpaid sales tax
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/os-prem-et-parliament-house-taxes-trial-20211019-wr5sdz7pxjfyphe6c7c4oq65o4-story.html

From Matt Palm at the Sentinel 

I'd be lying if I said I was shocked....but what makes you think the new version won't end up coming to fruition? Just a hunch?

[spenser1058]

17 minutes ago, bqknight said:

I'd be lying if I said I was shocked....but what makes you think the new version won't end up coming to fruition? Just a hunch?

It certainly could happen but the Granatsteins have tended to make a mess of anything they’ve been involved with, not only here but elsewhere.

It’s also just getting harder to do gay bars in this day and age. As we’ve mainstreamed over the years, the bars have become less successful , not unlike Sweet Auburn in Atlanta and Parramore have for the Black community because it’s harder to keep the same critical mass.

When you’re welcome most everywhere, (legally at first and then culturally as society hopefully progresses) it changes the calculus.

[nite owℓ]

IMO the new location for P-House in CityArts factory sucks... I think Church Street Station (the actual old railroad station) would've been a better fit. One of the reasons why P-House was so fun is because it had so many facets: swimming pool/outdoor areas, concert area, the little beach on the lake, drag queen theater, dance floor, pool table bar, bear bar, etc. Throwing P-House into a boring building is not the same. At least Church Street Station could offer a few different ambiances in all of the outdoor spaces and nooks and crannies to give each area it's own separate vibe. That said, I don't know if the younger generation holds the same fondness for Parliament House so maybe it was just time for it to fade away or try to bring it back, dust it off and make it new again.

Edited October 27, 2021 by nite owℓ

[spenser1058]

Don’t believe me that Buddy and Mr. Chatmon’s downtown is a failure, believe City Commissioner Jim Gray:

“On the dais, Gray has been an outspoken critic of downtown Orlando, particularly its lack of fine dining and retail, and abundance of bars and taprooms. In an interview, Gray said he’s suggested the city hire consultants to help craft a plan to diversify downtown, such as plans to improve access to parking or offering reduced or free rent. “We’ve built a beautiful arena and we’ve built a beautiful arts center. Tell me how many new businesses have opened and stayed open around those venues,” he said. “What’s happening now is [patrons] drive in from suburbia, they go to the show, they get into their car and go back home. “Bottom line is we’re pouring way too much alcohol downtown ... we’re just out of proportion.”

From The Sentinel 

Of course, the Buddy/Thomas apologists will just keep telling us that downtown keeps getting better every year!

Even the real estate industrial complex knows the truth - Jim Gray is the Managing Director of CBRE’s Orlando Office…

Edited October 22, 2021 by spenser1058

[JFW657]

5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Don’t believe me that Buddy and Mr. Chatmon’s downtown is a failure, believe City Commissioner Jim Gray:

Why?

Why should we believe him? 

How do we know he isn't just another self interested agenda pusher? 

And where does it actually say in the article you referenced that he called DTO under Buddy Dyer "a failure"?   

The following quote is from the same article you referenced, but it was reprinted in Yahoo News, ergo no paywall.

Sunshine Grund and Bill Moore, Gray's opponents in the upcoming election, made some interesting comments about Gray...

Quote

 

She  (Grund) criticized Gray for being funded by developers, suggesting he’s too cozy with the industry.

“Our best interests are not always being represented,” she said.

(Bill) Moore also dinged the incumbent for not voting on some agenda items due to conflicts of interest. Gray has abstained from voting when clients are represented by the commercial real estate firm CBRE, where he works as the managing director of the Orlando office.

“When you start conflicting out, you’re not only not representing District 1, you’re not representing the city,” Moore said. “I think he needs to step down.”

https://news.yahoo.com/jim-gray-draws-2-challengers-183100153.html

 

So... tell me again why I should believe his supposed condemnation of Buddy Dyer. 

[spenser1058]

5 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Why?

Why should we believe him? 

How do we know he isn't just another self interested agenda pusher? 

And where does it actually say in the article you referenced that he called DTO under Buddy Dyer "a failure"?   

The following quote is from the same article you referenced, but it was reprinted in Yahoo News, ergo no paywall.

Sunshine Grund and Bill Moore, Gray's opponents in the upcoming election, made some interesting comments about Gray...

So... tell me again why I should believe his supposed condemnation of Buddy Dyer. 

Those of us on the outside recognize what a mess it is and now even those on the inside recognize it as well. But keep on believing - any year now it’ll get better. We’re on our way to being John Land’s Apopka!

[Jerry95]

15 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

“What’s happening now is [patrons] drive in from suburbia, they go to the show, they get into their car and go back home.”

It’s amazing that we can have this realization and not want to pair it with investing in SunRail.  

[JFW657]

5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Those of us on the outside recognize what a mess it is and now even those on the inside recognize it as well. But keep on believing - any year now it’ll get better. We’re on our way to being John Land’s Apopka!

Just as in life... it is what it is.

If there was a big enough demand for all the things you blame your arch nemesis Buddy The Barbarian  for not being in DTO, those things would be there. 

But you go ahead and hold up as your paragon of truth and virtue, some far right, Republican real estate industry shill who takes sides with supporters of The Confederacy...

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-jim-gray-mailer-tom-keen-orlando-20171013-story.html  

 

Quote

Orlando city Commissioner Jim Gray accused an opponent of "race baiting" in response to a mailer attacking his position on removing a Confederate memorial from Lake Eola Park.

The mailer called Gray a "Right-Wing Commissioner of the Past" and quoted him saying of the Confederacy, "It wasn't to me about slavery as much as it was North aggression to take our farmland."

 

[spenser1058]

11 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Just as in life... it is what it is.

If there was a big enough demand for all the things you blame your arch nemesis Buddy The Barbarian  for not being in DTO, those things would be there. 

But you go ahead and hold up as your paragon of truth and virtue, some far right, Republican real estate industry shill who takes sides with supporters of The Confederacy...

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/os-jim-gray-mailer-tom-keen-orlando-20171013-story.html  

 

 

No one better than I knows about the real estate industry’s hold over this town. And you’re always trying to accuse me of being some wild-eyed socialist so which is it?

I thought it was worthwhile the left believes downtown is a mess and here’s the right saying it. Not to mention the city’s newspaper of record has observed local government is in a rut. Also, that shows the insiders believe we have a problem and also the outsiders.

But I know you believe St. Buddy is incapable of error and we have a splendid downtown with lots of retail and plenty of dining options. So you just keep on believing that and see how it goes.

For folks who wonder why it doesn’t seem to be working, some of us are finally speaking up.

 

[prahaboheme]

18 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Don’t believe me that Buddy and Mr. Chatmon’s downtown is a failure, believe City Commissioner Jim Gray:

“On the dais, Gray has been an outspoken critic of downtown Orlando, particularly its lack of fine dining and retail, and abundance of bars and taprooms. In an interview, Gray said he’s suggested the city hire consultants to help craft a plan to diversify downtown, such as plans to improve access to parking or offering reduced or free rent. “We’ve built a beautiful arena and we’ve built a beautiful arts center. Tell me how many new businesses have opened and stayed open around those venues,” he said. “What’s happening now is [patrons] drive in from suburbia, they go to the show, they get into their car and go back home. “Bottom line is we’re pouring way too much alcohol downtown ... we’re just out of proportion.”

From The Sentinel 

Of course, the Buddy/Thomas apologists will just keep telling us that downtown keeps getting better every year!

Even the real estate industrial complex knows the truth - Jim Gray is the Managing Director of CBRE’s Orlando Office…

The “beautiful arts center” lives in isolation from the rest of downtown, by design it seems. 
 

A few issues come to mind:

a) the original vision was never realized entirely by bringing development to the adjacent DPAC commons parcels. Hotel, restaurant, retail was envisioned and the city did not follow through with it. 
 

b) the center is surrounding by pedestrian unfriendly one-way streets on all 4 sides, creating a physical barrier between it and the rest of downtown.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

No one better than I knows about the real estate industry’s hold over this town. And you’re always trying to accuse me of being some wild-eyed socialist so which is it?

How's the view from up on that pedestal you've placed yourself on? 

And when have I ever accused you personally of being a socialist, wild-eyed or otherwise?

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

I thought it was worthwhile the left believes downtown is a mess and here’s the right saying it. Not to mention the city’s newspaper of record has observed local government is in a rut. Also, that shows the insiders believe we have a problem and also the outsiders.

Name one city in Amercia that doesn't have problems and issues.

I know you hate to hear this, but things take time. Nothing happens overnight. You might not like to acknowledge it, but that's just the way things are. Deal with it.

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

But I know you believe St. Buddy is incapable of error and we have a splendid downtown with lots of retail and plenty of dining options. So you just keep on believing that and see how it goes.

Once again you resort to exaggeration and hyperbole when you have nothing else to offer in the way of rebuttal.

Buddy Dyer is not perfect. Never claimed he is.  But realistic adults like myself, don't expect people to be perfect.

I think he's doing the best job he or anyone else could do in that job.

As for seeing how it goes.... thankfully my entire life doesn't revolve around such weighty issues as the availability and quality of restaurants and high-brow entertainment in DTO. 

If it comes it comes. If it doesn't it doesn't. Either way, I'll live with it and not get my shorts in a bunch over it. 

Some people seem to forget that downtown Orlando is still a relatively non-mature city center.

To make matters more difficult, it has I-Drive and Disney to compete with.

And retail? Aside from the fact that online shopping has taken a bite out of that everywhere, DTO still doesn't have the residential base to support the kind and level that some of you are demanding.

There are just too many alternatives to DTO for it to have reached the point that you and others think it should be at by now.

Change is coming, but as I said, it takes time.   

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

For folks who wonder why it doesn’t seem to be working, some of us are finally speaking up.

Try not to sprain your arm patting yourself on the back.

And be careful not to fall off that pedestal and hurt yourself. 

[spenser1058]

“Change is coming, but as I said, it takes time.”

Almost 19 years seems a bit long to me. Maybe after 50 years, he’ll get it right. Fortunately, I’ve seen cities that change much more quickly and that will be the goal. Meanwhile, just sit back in your rocking chair and relax.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

The “beautiful arts center” lives in isolation from the rest of downtown, by design it seems. 

Where else should they have built it? 

What should they have torn down to put up the DPAC?

1 hour ago, prahaboheme said:

A few issues come to mind:

a) the original vision was never realized entirely by bringing development to the adjacent DPAC commons parcels. Hotel, restaurant, retail was envisioned and the city did not follow through with it. 
 

b) the center is surrounding by pedestrian unfriendly one-way streets on all 4 sides, creating a physical barrier between it and the rest of downtown.

a) Which hotel, restaurant and retail chains were clamoring to throw money at which developers to put all that stuff in place?

Was the city supposed to fund it with even more tax dollars?

Was Buddy Dyer just too inept to  smooth talk the populace into coughing up the tens/hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to build all of that in the absence of any developer willing to so?

b) I guess adults are just too helpless and sensitive to navigate their way across a street that isn't blocked off from vehicular traffic and lined with flowers shrubbery. 

No wonder nobody ever goes there and it has just sat empty nd unused since it opened. 

[JFW657]

3 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

“Change is coming, but as I said, it takes time.”

Almost 19 years seems a bit long to me. Maybe after 50 years, he’ll get it right. Fortunately, I’ve seen cities that change much more quickly and that will be the goal. Meanwhile, just sit back in your rocking chair and relax.

"But mo-om.... other cities get to have dessert without eating their vegetables!!!! Other cities get to sit up past their bedtime and watch monster movies!!!! Other cities get their allowance without having to clean their room!!!!"

Orlando is Orlando, not other cities. 

Each city has its own set of circumstances.  

[spenser1058]

1 minute ago, JFW657 said:

"But mo-om.... other cities get to have dessert without eating their vegetables!!!! Other cities get to sit up past their bedtime and watch monster movies!!!! Other cities get their allowance without having to clean their room!!!!"

Orlando is Orlando, not other cities. 

Each city has its own set of circumstances.  

I guess you’ve never heard of benchmarking. Successful organizations and communities do it a lot to make sure they aren’t falling behind current best practices.

[prahaboheme]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

Where else should they have built it? 

What should they have torn down to put up the DPAC?

a) Which hotel, restaurant and retail chains were clamoring to throw money at which developers to put all that stuff in place?

Was the city supposed to fund it with even more tax dollars?

Was Buddy Dyer just too inept to  smooth talk the populace into coughing up the tens/hundreds of millions of dollars it would take to build all of that in the absence of any developer willing to so?

b) I guess adults are just too helpless and sensitive to navigate their way across a street that isn't blocked off from vehicular traffic and lined with flowers shrubbery. 

No wonder nobody ever goes there and it has just sat empty nd unused since it opened. 

You seem to have misunderstood the stated remark and unfortunately, leading to your unnecessary rhetorical ramble.

That being said, when did this administration shy away from bulldozing anything?  To entertain you, I’d have placed the arts center at Church / Orange where Buddy was more than willing to tear down buildings.

 

[AmIReal]

21 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Don’t believe me that Buddy and Mr. Chatmon’s downtown is a failure, believe City Commissioner Jim Gray:

“On the dais, Gray has been an outspoken critic of downtown Orlando, particularly its lack of fine dining and retail, and abundance of bars and taprooms. In an interview, Gray said he’s suggested the city hire consultants to help craft a plan to diversify downtown, such as plans to improve access to parking or offering reduced or free rent. “We’ve built a beautiful arena and we’ve built a beautiful arts center. Tell me how many new businesses have opened and stayed open around those venues,” he said. “What’s happening now is [patrons] drive in from suburbia, they go to the show, they get into their car and go back home. “Bottom line is we’re pouring way too much alcohol downtown ... we’re just out of proportion.”

Count me as "not surprised" that a 70-ish, white man with right leaning political views, who  lives in a mini mansion in an exclusive  neighborhood would not be comfortable in our downtown or with the people that go there. My guess is he would feel this way about most downtowns. Further, I suspect most people of his profile would also feel the same. There is nothing shocking or revelatory here. I'm also not a big fan of many of the bars downtown, but I don't confine my view of downtown to 3 blocks along Orange or a block of Church. Btw, Nona doesn't have any restaurants that compare to The Monroe, Reyes or The Boheme. He may prefer the patrons at restaurants in other areas, but the restaurants are certainly no better.

 

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

my entire life doesn't revolve around such weighty issues as the availability and quality of restaurants and high-brow entertainment in DTO

If you have a downtown full of Taco Bells and cheap beer joints then you likely have a lower end (economically speaking) of downtowners. 

 

32 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I’d have placed the arts center at Church / Orange where Buddy was more than willing to tear down buildings.

That would have been a fine location and maybe even the Magic S&E property, but I think the location they chose was the best choice... just my opinion.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

I guess you’ve never heard of benchmarking. Successful organizations and communities do it a lot to make sure they aren’t falling behind current best practices.

I guess you've never heard of specious reasoning.