Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[JFW657]

10 minutes ago, klstorey said:

Any idea what will replace Barbarella/I-Bar? That building is really beat up so unless it's another bar I don't see many tenants excited for that space. I kinda hope that entire  area gets demo'd and we get a nice new building. Save the Beachem (maybe but honestly it's so beat up I question if its even worth it) but the rest of those buildings could be flattened and I wouldn't mind (even though I've had many fun nights along that block). That property would be a beautiful spot for a new signature tower for downtown. I know a lot of those buildings are from the 1920s and 30s, but just because its old doesn't mean its worth saving. 

I see the parking lot behind the buildings was sold in 2019 to the South Orange Blosson (sic) Trail Opportunity Land Trust. The other two parcels don't show anything since 2010. 

The three parcels are just over an acre, not a lot but not that much smaller than the UnionWest footprint in the Creative Village. I'm sure with a nice enough dog and pony show a developer could even buy/lease the City owned property just west of there. The SouthState Bank building just got a new owner so they'd probably be happy to sell/jv a deal for their small garage parcel. 

I can't agree. 

I could get behind them doing something like what proposed back in the 80's for the Jaymont block, though.

Save the facades, go back about 15 feet and build up.

But I'd still rather they kept The Beacham and Valentine's (or whatever it's been called for the past few decades) 100%  intact. 

Too bad I don't have any say in such matters, though. 

[HankStrong]

8 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I can't agree. 

I could get behind them doing something like what proposed back in the 80's for the Jaymont block, though.

Save the facades, go back about 15 feet and build up.

But I'd still rather they kept The Beacham and Valentine's (or whatever it's been called for the past few decades) 100%  intact. 

Too bad I don't have any say in such matters, though. 

My data is pre-COVID, but the last time I was in the Beacham it looked like it needed condemned in the worst way.

[codypet]

10 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I can't agree. 

I could get behind them doing something like what proposed back in the 80's for the Jaymont block, though.

Save the facades, go back about 15 feet and build up.

But I'd still rather they kept The Beacham and Valentine's (or whatever it's been called for the past few decades) 100%  intact. 

Too bad I don't have any say in such matters, though. 

Remember the Dolive proposal from like a Decade back?  15 stories and save the facade?

I believe that place was condemned too before it became 3 bars again.

[codypet]

Checking the property appraiser, that whole corner is owned by the same owner of 64 N and Aero and the Patio.   I suspect a new bar is going in.

[AmIReal]

8 hours ago, HankStrong said:

My data is pre-COVID, but the last time I was in the Beacham it looked like it needed condemned in the worst way.

You should have seen CBGB in the heydays. 

Btw, for those that are not familiar with the history of Barbarella

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/after-more-than-30-years-nightclub-barbarella-leaves-downtown-orlando/Content?oid=30980166

Edited February 9, 2022 by AmIReal

[JFW657]

6 hours ago, AmIReal said:

You should have seen CBGB in the heydays. 

Btw, for those that are not familiar with the history of Barbarella

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/orlando/after-more-than-30-years-nightclub-barbarella-leaves-downtown-orlando/Content?oid=30980166

I used to go there for happy hour in 82 - 83 when it was a yuppie fern bar called Orange Quarter. 

They'd have free quiche.

The Social was called Valentine's. 

I guess they got the name from the little heart just below the roofline.  

[AndyPok1]

I largely agree with @klstorey.  For the record, I've had many a fun night at Eye Spy/Aero/whatever the hell we're calling it.  But I've been here a decade and never heard of this Barbarella name until the past month.  It's always been I-Bar or Independent Bar.  And I'm ALL for history.  Hell, I was a history major.  But nostalgia and history are two very different things.

[codypet]

11 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

I largely agree with @klstorey.  For the record, I've had many a fun night at Eye Spy/Aero/whatever the hell we're calling it.  But I've been here a decade and never heard of this Barbarella name until the past month.  It's always been I-Bar or Independent Bar.  And I'm ALL for history.  Hell, I was a history major.  But nostalgia and history are two very different things.

Yea I've frequented the bar since 2003 and its been I bar as long as I can remember down there. (That said I could swear the Lodge was there too, but I don't believe it opened until sometime later).   And yes those of you doing math can tell I was not yet 21 in 2003.  

[bqknight]

1 hour ago, AndyPok1 said:

I largely agree with @klstorey.  For the record, I've had many a fun night at Eye Spy/Aero/whatever the hell we're calling it.  But I've been here a decade and never heard of this Barbarella name until the past month.  It's always been I-Bar or Independent Bar.  And I'm ALL for history.  Hell, I was a history major.  But nostalgia and history are two very different things.

I haven't been in IBar for a loooong time, but I remember it was quite grungy (as it was going for). Aero/64North/Patio is still in pretty good shape though. They redid the inside when it went from BBQ Bar to 64 North. They've even upgraded some of Aero's equipment/bars in the past couple years. I will say though, those bars aren't as busy as they used to be (granted I haven't been in probably a year). If that trio of bars ever closed - I'd be quite sad, lots of memories there. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, AndyPok1 said:

I largely agree with @klstorey.  For the record, I've had many a fun night at Eye Spy/Aero/whatever the hell we're calling it.  But I've been here a decade and never heard of this Barbarella name until the past month.  It's always been I-Bar or Independent Bar.  And I'm ALL for history.  Hell, I was a history major.  But nostalgia and history are two very different things.

More like two slightly different things I would say, as you can't have one without the other.

But the Beacham and the rest of the block are historic to Orlando. 

Were they in a more significant location or major corner like Orange and Church, I'd reluctantly accept demoing them for a major development.

But Orange and Washington doesn't merit losing the Beacham or the "heart building" next door... IMO.  

Besides, there's plenty of room behind those buildings to put up something of reasonable size.

Tear down Planet Pizza...

[jgardnerucf]

1 hour ago, JFW657 said:

heart building"

Originally Valentine's.         

3 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

Barbarella

Original namesake.   Sister bar in Austin.

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, jgardnerucf said:

Originally Valentine's.         

That's what it was when I first moved to Orlando in 1981. 

That's what I've always known it as.

I think I referred to it as Valentine's a few posts back.

Was going to again in my post you quoted, but I figured hardly anybody knew it as that. 

I assume that as old as the building is, it's been called several things over the years. 

[spenser1058]

7 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

That's what it was when I first moved to Orlando in 1981. 

That's what I've always known it as.

I think I referred to it as Valentine's a few posts back.

Was going to again in my post you quoted, but I figured hardly anybody knew it as that. 

I assume that as old as the building is, it's been called several things over the years. 

Minor correction: they spelled it “Valentine’s”

[JFW657]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Minor correction: they spelled it “Valentine’s”

I don't get it.....   

[spenser1058]

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Minor correction: they spelled it “Valentine’s”

Sorry - autocorrect strikes again. Valentyne’s 

[JFW657]

15 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Sorry - autocorrect strikes again. Valentyne’s 

Yep.

Exactly what happened to me.

Autocorrect.

Yep.

That's what happened.    

[spenser1058]

It’s interesting how cities like Atlanta, Birmingham and Tampa (just to name a few) went to great lengths to save their iconic movie houses that were such great community facilities during the ‘20’s and ‘30’s.

Of course, Orlando couldn’t be bothered and we have to leave the job to Winter Garden and (DeLightful!) DeLand. 

It’s entirely consistent though… as someone recently observed Bob Carr is looking more and more down at the heels these days (compare that to the restoration of Nashville’s Ryman Auditorium). It looks like demolition by neglect is under way yet again in The City, ummm, Beautiful?
 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

It’s interesting how cities like Atlanta, Birmingham and Tampa (just to name a few) went to great lengths to save their iconic movie houses that were such great community facilities during the ‘20’s and ‘30’s.

Of course, Orlando couldn’t be bothered and we have to leave the job to Winter Garden and (DeLightful!) DeLand. 

It’s entirely consistent though… as someone recently observed Bob Carr is looking more and more down at the heels these days (compare that to the restoration of Nashville’s Ryman Auditorium). It looks like demolition by neglect is under way yet again in The City, ummm, Beautiful?
 

I'm pretty sure the closest thing we have to an iconic movie house in The Beacham which draws more people and makes more money as a bar, apparently..

There was that one at Colonial and Mills, I believe it was called The Vogue, but I'm not sure how iconic it was. 

[spenser1058]

7 hours ago, JFW657 said:

I'm pretty sure the closest thing we have to an iconic movie house in The Beacham which draws more people and makes more money as a bar, apparently..

There was that one at Colonial and Mills, I believe it was called The Vogue, but I'm not sure how iconic it was. 

I did bemoan the passing of The Vogue (especially since it was torn down to build a gas station). It was a neighborhood house, though, rather than the city’s preeminent movie palace (the Beacham also did live entertainment at one point).

[prahaboheme]

13 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It’s interesting how cities like Atlanta, Birmingham and Tampa (just to name a few) went to great lengths to save their iconic movie houses that were such great community facilities during the ‘20’s and ‘30’s.

Of course, Orlando couldn’t be bothered and we have to leave the job to Winter Garden and (DeLightful!) DeLand. 

It’s entirely consistent though… as someone recently observed Bob Carr is looking more and more down at the heels these days (compare that to the restoration of Nashville’s Ryman Auditorium). It looks like demolition by neglect is under way yet again in The City, ummm, Beautiful?
 

Is the Bob Carr not included in the planned development at CV? I thought renovations to the building facade and plaza were at least a part of the development although maybe that was my “creative” imagination.

[spenser1058]

6 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Is the Bob Carr not included in the planned development at CV? I thought renovations to the building facade and plaza were at least a part of the development although maybe that was my “creative” imagination.

We’ll see what happens. For the moment, it’s pretty clear while the city and DPCPA were fighting over who would schedule the building the last couple of years, neither side paid much attention to maintenance.

[AmIReal]

On 2/8/2022 at 10:29 PM, JFW657 said:

But I'd still rather they kept The Beacham and Valentine's (or whatever it's been called for the past few decades) 100%  intact. 

The Beacham, all the way north to Washington was unanimously approved for demolition by the Historic Preservation Board in 1988 even though it had been deemed a historic property the previous year. The owner at the time, Mr Juarez, intended to build a 20-something story office building and parking garage. I remember the going away party the historic society threw for the building. Juarez was going to be required to rebuild the facade in like style, but the facade was not scheduled to be saved. All of that backlot you pointed out, Planet Pizza and the parking lot, were included in the proposal. What did save it was downtown office space was viewed as overbuilt at the time and he could not raise the capital to proceed.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 12:06 PM, AndyPok1 said:

I largely agree with @klstorey.  For the record, I've had many a fun night at Eye Spy/Aero/whatever the hell we're calling it.  But I've been here a decade and never heard of this Barbarella name until the past month.  It's always been I-Bar or Independent Bar.  And I'm ALL for history.  Hell, I was a history major.  But nostalgia and history are two very different things.

What you call it is probably a marker for your age or when you moved here. I was hanging out in downtown in the 80's and past 2002 when the name change happened, so to me and my older crowd it was always Barberella. Kinda like Firestone and Venue. Heck, I still refer to BBQ Bar or Cleo's even though I know that is not currently the name of those places. What separates Barberella/ I-bar is they were always the same ownership and basically the same offering. I'm not sure why John felt he needed to rebrand.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 3:27 PM, jgardnerucf said:

Original namesake.   Sister bar in Austin.

And Houston and Vegas... I think they are up to 5 or 6 scattered around. Not too bad for a local DJ who was spinning at the old Americana Dutch (aka Grosvenor/ Wyndam) and wasn't allowed to play his preferred style of music. He left and opened Faith in Physics then Visage then eventually brought Barberella to downtown. 

[spenser1058]

Oscar Juarez was a Republican apparatchik in the ‘80’s who fancied himself a developer but whose reach far exceeded his grasp. 

He did indeed try an end run to his contacts in D.C. but didn’t get far. By then, the Frederick administration saw its close ties with Lincoln and Bob Snow and the two Church Street festival marketplaces as the future of downtown.

Retail along that stretch of N. Orange Ave. seemed to be taking care of itself during that time, with new ownership for Gibbs-Louis, occupancy was still good with the tobacco shop and a renovated John Glenn Jewelers and Valentyne’s the watering hole of choice among much of the downtown crowd. As a result, the block didn’t get much official attention.

In retrospect, the closure of JCPenney in 1986, as the loss of anchors usually do, began an inexorable decline among independent retailers there (it was a particular blow because the store was still profitable until the day it closed - the decision came from corporate in Plano once Florida Mall opened and was a surprise to locals).

Meanwhile, the bar owners with no interest in preservation took the cheap rents available to create a plethora of “use and discard” bars (maintenance on old buildings require work to keep them from beginning demolition by neglect but the opposite happened).

By the time Mayor Glenda and Eola Heights activists recognized what was happening, they tried to fight back, but once again  other matters took precedence (the war over light rail which consumed the Hood administration and then what to do about the Navy base after Bill McCollum “saved it”).

The last stand came in 2002’s mayoral election, when Buddy, who heretofore had little interest in local government but needed a job after his embarrassing defeat to Charlie Crist in the AG race, took the deal offered by the bar owners and gave them pretty much carte blanche to do what they wanted. The rest is history leading to the mess that is downtown Orlando today (even Buddy has finally acknowledged it but of course, as usual, is doing nothing about it).

When compared with other cities in Florida that would begin in earnest to rescue their downtowns, what seems lacking are two things: one, as in Jacksonville, a well-organized group of activists who began to push back when developers took control of city hall, or, two, as in St. Pete, a city government that recognizes the value of its history to make it a destination “it city”. 

We currently have neither and the results have been predictable.

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by spenser1058

[jliv]

On 2/12/2022 at 4:59 AM, JFW657 said:

I'm pretty sure the closest thing we have to an iconic movie house in The Beacham which draws more people and makes more money as a bar, apparently..

There was that one at Colonial and Mills, I believe it was called The Vogue, but I'm not sure how iconic it was. 

i wouldn't put the Beacham in the same league as the Alabama, the Fox, or the Tampa Theatre, but I've always been frustrated by the abuse the building has suffered over the years.  My heart sank after I saw what they did to it for the Baja Beach Club redo in the mid-90's.   I'd love to see it owned by a non-profit and turned into a multi-purpose venue to show cult on nights where there isn't a live band or a club night using the space.    

Edited February 13, 2022 by jliv

[spenser1058]

3 hours ago, jliv said:

i wouldn't put the Beacham in the same league as the Alabama, the Fox, or the Tampa Theatre, but I've always been frustrated by the abuse the building has suffered over the years.  My heart sank after I saw what they did to it for the Baja Beach Club redo in the mid-90's.   I'd love to see it owned by a non-profit and turned into a multi-purpose venue to show cult on nights where there isn't a live band or a club night using the space.    

You’re right that the Beacham was never the grand movie palace the Alabama and Tampa Theaters were. For that matter, neither was the Fox (although its moorish exterior and amazing interiors made quite a difference; the flagship house in Atlanta was actually the Loews downtown - it hosted the premiere of GWTW - . which burned under questionable circumstances while Georgia-Pacific* was angling to build their new tower on the site.)

Nevertheless, The Beacham had a storied history, not to mention the rumors about the underground tunnel connecting it to The Angebilt.

I was amazed just how well WG’s Garden Theatre turned out, even though it was just a small-town theater. It’s become much beloved in the community and is punching well above its weight in its presentations (I’ve been told that’s also true of the Athens in [DeLightful!] DeLand, but I’ve only seen its exterior). 

It’s hard to know what you’ll end up with until a restoration is complete, but if you never bother you of course end up with nothing.

*Conspiracy note especially for @jrs2: did the Koch Brothers own G-P at the time?

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by spenser1058