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Downtown Orlando Project Discussion


sunshine

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6 hours ago, sunshine said:

Winter Garden and Park Ave is doing fine without bars. Now I can add Lake Nona town center.

Do people live on Park Ave?  Do people spend time in Park Ave in the evening?  No.  These places are dead after dinner.

The only reason I go to Winter Garden is either for the bike trail (daytime activity), a show at the garden theatre, or the brewery. 

If doing fine == the 2020s version of a suburban mall that shuts down at 9PM, then yes lots of places are doing fine.

4 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

The girls in the video below look like they were probably out walking around or hanging around in parking lots drinking out of a brown paper bag....

 

A) the first video you posted happened on a Sunday.  And yes, it was a fight at a bar.  No one is saying these things don't happen.  Security jumped in immediately.

B ) the second video you posted is from 2012.  The scene downtown is nothing like it was a decade ago.

But regardless, you're missing the entire point.  People can get drunk and then go wherever they want.  It's a pretty common occurrence to be at a BBQ or pool or whatever drinking all day on a Saturday before changing and heading DT.  They can be drunk without being served a drop of alcohol in DTO.  You may not even want to drink anymore, but you don't want to go to sleep yet and you want to hang out with your friends.  So you go out.

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6 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

A) the first video you posted happened on a Sunday.  And yes, it was a fight at a bar.  No one is saying these things don't happen.  Security jumped in immediately.

B ) the second video you posted is from 2012.  The scene downtown is nothing like it was a decade ago.

But regardless, you're missing the entire point.  People can get drunk and then go wherever they want.  It's a pretty common occurrence to be at a BBQ or pool or whatever drinking all day on a Saturday before changing and heading DT.  They can be drunk without being served a drop of alcohol in DTO.  You may not even want to drink anymore, but you don't want to go to sleep yet and you want to hang out with your friends.  So you go out.

Well, first of all, this is not just a downtown Orlando thing.

You can go to YouTube and do a search of bar fights. Even use Orlando as part of the search criteria. You'll get video of the same nonsense happening in cities all over. Memphis, Hollywood (Ca), SF, NYC. Miami, Daytona. Everywhere.

To say this is a problem germane to Orlando, and more absurd yet, to say it has something to do with the way Orlando's  mayor has done hs job during his tenure, as someone else has suggested ad nauseum, is laughable.

Also, it is the number of bars in DTO that attracts the thousands of rowdy club goers and others who just want to hang out on the street and watch them as the popular opinion here suggests, to begin with. If there weren't so many bars serving so much alcohol and helping to foster the rowdy atmosphere, there wouldn't be as many drunk and rowdy people hanging around in general and as such, there wouldn't be so many drunken, violent incidents.

So in that sense, I feel that one can still make the claim that the overabundance of bars is, if not directly, then indirectly responsible.

22 minutes ago, AndyPok1 said:

B ) the second video you posted is from 2012.  The scene downtown is nothing like it was a decade ago.

Sounds like it's worse and getting "worser".

Otherwise, why are we having this discussion?  

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1 hour ago, jack said:

I'm talking more of the guys with guns. Shootings usually happen in the streets. Also, that is what OPD has said previously. 

That could very well be true.

But with or without guns, bar fights, street fights and violence in general, are not good for DTO

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1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

Nope. A lot of the problem drinking- and additional products- are consumed in the parking lots. That is why they are talking about so much additional enforcement on them. There are a lot of "kids" downtown that can't go in the bars, but they "load up" in their cars then walk around all night. Sure, bar fights occur, but that is not where most of the action is.

One of the byproducts of everyone having to pass through some form of security to get to the party zone is it allows the cops to pick out those that are already too trashed to enter. It also makes it less likely that certain bad actors are going to enter that area because they don't want to have the cops' eyes on them.

Side effect- the bad actors will now hang out in other areas, just basically moving the battle front. 

so it goes without saying that there are a lot of assholes that go out at night.  the underaged drinking in parking lots- been there, done that.

it's both; people getting drunk in bars then going outside and then the other bunch.

we're focused here this whole time on drinking.  What about all the people high on weed?  

15 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

That could very well be true.

But with or without guns, bar fights, street fights and violence in general, are not good for DTO

...that's one of the things that had turned me off from going out in Ybor back in the day.  first time I had been there in years, around '98, cops were throwing tear gas into a crowd b/c a fight broke out...oh, yeah, we ran in the other direction.

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29 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Well, first of all, this is not just a downtown Orlando thing.

You can go to YouTube and do a search of bar fights. Even use Orlando as part of the search criteria. You'll get video of the same nonsense happening in cities all over. Memphis, Hollywood (Ca), SF, NYC. Miami, Daytona. Everywhere.

To say this is a problem germane to Orlando, and more absurd yet, to say it has something to do with the way Orlando's  mayor has done hs job during his tenure, as someone else has suggested ad nauseum, is laughable.

Also, it is the number of bars in DTO that attracts the thousands of rowdy club goers and others who just want to hang out on the street and watch them as the popular opinion here suggests, to begin with. If there weren't so many bars serving so much alcohol and helping to foster the rowdy atmosphere, there wouldn't be as many drunk and rowdy people hanging around in general and as such, there wouldn't be so many drunken, violent incidents.

So in that sense, I feel that one can still make the claim that the overabundance of bars is, if not directly, then indirectly responsible.

Sounds like it's worse and getting "worser".

Otherwise, why are we having this discussion?  

Absolutely.  It's not an "Orlando thing."  As for the gun thing, a friend of mine moved from downtown Chicago two years ago b/c of that incident where a Southside rapper was gunned down literally at the foot of her condo tower by a rival gang member.  It made the news.  Her condo was on the north side of downtown.

I used to go to college football games with guys that were drunk off their asses...and...ridiculously enough...would start fights with other fans...of the same team.  One of those guys became a cop.  It's that same getting drunk and going out or to the event that so many people do that are just downright mean drunks (or assholes).  I remember being on Bourbon Street inside bars with live music where one or two drunkards start messing with or bumping into people seemingly on purpose- and them you see 60yo men threatening to kick their ass if they didn't leave the bar.  I was like...wow.  Same type of thing with HHN late at night...drunks... 

DTO is a melting pot.  So now, people ask "where's the action at?" The action is in DTO.  Who likes the action?  More or less everybody from all walks of life and from all parts of town.

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On 8/15/2022 at 8:01 PM, spenser1058 said:

Come to think about it, if this is such a viable strategy, let’s take it to Chuck at Unicorp.

“Hey, Chuck, I’ve got this GREAT idea for OFS. Forget about retail or anything entertainment-oriented. Let’s put in 70-100 dive bars catering to the party to you puke crowd and let’s keep it open until 3am so everyone can be totally wasted.

”Chuck, can you picture what kind of folks will want to live around that? I mean, this will be killer, dude - let’s get right on that!”

Then head down to Nona and propose the same thing to Tavistock for their town center. Can you picture it?

Goodness gracious, then next at the Marketplace at Southside. We don’t need no stinkin’ retail, we got 100 dive bars! Party-til-you-puke or until 3 am!

Heck, we can franchise it. I already have the name for it - “POTTERSVILLE”.

Just imagine when you present the concept to the EDC - they’ll love it. This is FABULOUS.

It’s funny, Boston shut down the Combat Zone and NYC cleaned up Times Square, but here in Orlando we’re embracing squalor and can’t wait to return to the 1970’s. The City Beautiful is going to be so EXTRA!

What on earth are you going on about? Have you been Downtown at night in the last two decades?

Sure, it gets loud and pretty ratchet from 11:00pm - 2:30am. But that's a few days a week in a very concentrated area. We're not talking about a nightly Bourbon Street experience. And if you're referencing Times Square in the '70s, I haven't seen any prostitutes or people shooting up on Orange Ave. 

It's completely possible to grab dinner and drinks at nice places until at least 11:00pm, if not later. I'm not sure how an isolated event at 3:00am is painting all of Downtown's nightlife with a certain brush. 

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1 hour ago, orlandocity87 said:

What on earth are you going on about? Have you been Downtown at night in the last two decades?

Sure, it gets loud and pretty ratchet from 11:00pm - 2:30am. But that's a few days a week in a very concentrated area. We're not talking about a nightly Bourbon Street experience. And if you're referencing Times Square in the '70s, I haven't seen any prostitutes or people shooting up on Orange Ave. 

It's completely possible to grab dinner and drinks at nice places until at least 11:00pm, if not later. I'm not sure how an isolated event at 3:00am is painting all of Downtown's nightlife with a certain brush. 

I agree with that, up to a point. I don't think anyone can deny that diversification of the downtown economy is desirable- but it is not as broken as some would lead you to believe. There is a fairly good article in OS today

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-orlando-downtown-plan-20220819-fg4vmuxahnfpve5z5h5277y6ge-story.html

if you can't read it, try here- https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/remaking-downtown-how-orlando-hopes-to-guide-party-district-s-transition-to-neighborhood/ar-AA10Qzsf?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=493d7c3ddf824670b1da1695c8a76fe0

The article discusses DTO 2.0 and "The plan: to shift downtown from a business and entertainment hub to an urban neighborhood." 

Bottom line is it will take incentives- they can hit either end of the leasing chain. Either they provide incentives to desirable renters (higher end food/ retail) to allow them to pay market price, or they pay subsidies to property owners to make it easier for those renters.

The problem is a successful bar is a license to print money and will likely survive the term of the lease.  Retail and restaurants aren't nearly as secure- especially entering a questionable market.

They need to lockdown the safety issue first- or at least improve the perception of it. Then address the aggressive panhandling- which despite some views here is no worse than most other cities. Then work with the few landlords downtown that seem to be improving on the offerings- TMG, the Bags guy, etc.

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We knew all this twenty years ago and Buddy’s just realizing it? Well, better late than never. We’ll see.

Remaking downtown: How Orlando hopes to guide party district’s transition to ‘neighborhood’ 
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange-county/os-ne-orlando-downtown-plan-20220819-fg4vmuxahnfpve5z5h5277y6ge-story.html

From The Sentinel 

Still not a peep about restoring the core which is unsurprising. Buddy’s Bar Owner Buddies wouldn’t like that. Instead of demolition by neglect, it’s demolition by long-term abuse.

It makes more and more sense Kissimmee had to wait for Buddy to leave to save their downtown. Sound familiar?
 

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Somewhat quietly, the City Commision approved an ordinance that impacts sidewalks, driveways, on-street parking, parking garages and maybe most importantly reduced and/ or eliminated some parking requirements for new builds. I think this is a good step.

https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2022/08/22/orlando-waives-minimum-parking-requirements-downtown

if you want the deets- https://orlando.novusagenda.com/agendapublic/CoverSheet.aspx?ItemID=60841&MeetingID=2485 and click the attachment in the lower left corner.

Edited by AmIReal
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1 hour ago, codypet said:

Anyone else notice the free off peak parking on Orange is gone now too?  Running out of cheap/ free places to park downtown.

I noticed parking enforcement is cracking down on supply trucks stopping on Orange Ave for quick drop offs to businesses.

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It seems this one went under the radar. Aloft has added event space and two concierge lounges plus added live music at the WXYZ Lounge:

https://bungalower.com/2022/08/24/aloft-hotel-reopens-after-multi-million-dollar-renovation/

From Bungalower 
 

Changes to CBD parking minimums were apparently approved by the Orlando City Council at thei August 15 meeting :

https://bungalower.com/2022/08/24/orlando-amends-parking-minimums-in-central-business-district/

From Bungalower 

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28 minutes ago, smonteserin said:

I don’t know your opinion on Parking minimums, but they generally can help encourage more people centered developments. 

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2022/06/08/less-parking-could-mean-more-housing

I was just having this discussion with a bud in Gainesville, FL.  There, between campus and downtown, they are literally beginning to dot the streetscape of University with 10+ story buildings (housing).  This is similar to Columbus, OH, where one of the main drags that's adjacent to campus is one mid-rise after another; very urbanized.  Anyway, in Gainesville, my comment to him was I liked it, lamented that they couldn't do it while preserving the one-story older buildings fronting University with classic eateries and stores within.  I also said that this could work in Gainesville better if they had a mass transit line along that corridor- which goes to parking.  Until that is figured out- even in Orlando, you need parking.  I know in Chicago there are parking meters everywhere along the sides of these streets and boulevards.  People are pros at parallel parking up there- and I don't mean in The Loop; I mean throughout the city limits.  Personally, I think Orange Ave should consider, since it's still all one-way, allowing metered parking 24/7.  Why restrict it during the day?

I will say this:  a parking minimum is what killed initial proposals to build on the former "Sobick's" lot at Pine & Orange after the building got transformed into the Upside Down back in '04ish.

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As (Republican!) OC Chairman Lou Treadway said waaaay back in the early ‘80’s, “every space you fill in a parking garage is one more person not using transit”.

Granted, it’s a chicken and egg proposition: unless there’s effective transit, the alternative is to drive (and despite Jacob Stuart’s and Glenda Hood’s best efforts, it was the local GOP who stymied every attempt at transit systems that work). Mayor Bill never got it, either, which is one more reason he promptly became a Republican after leaving office.

FREE PARKING IS NOT FREE

And it’s not just downtown. Shopping centers and malls with tens or hundreds of acres of unused parking space have been anathema in my life. First, as a kid, at Parkwood Plaza, where it could be Black Friday with 32 lanes of league bowling going on and a world premiere movie at the Cinema* starting and STILL half of the parking spots would be empty. It took forever to get through that sea of asphalt just to walk over for a haircut.

To this day, I still refuse to shop at Florida Mall because, from the time you turn off the road, it’s an adventure in stress to get through all those empty parking spaces and reach the actual mall. Both are nothing short  of an abomination.

The more parking you have, the less pedestrian-friendly your neighborhood is. It’s one of the reasons the US is so unhealthy- it’s almost impossible  to develop the habit of walking anywhere. It’s harder for kids to participate in activities because they need a soccer mom to drive them to and from.

But this is the lifestyle America chose, because GM and Esso wanted us to believe that what was good for them was good for us. It was a lie, pure and simple, as humorously pointed out in “Who Framed Roger Rabbit?”

I know the typical Orlando response is, “we’ve always done it this way”, but some fresh thinking is something The City Beautiful desperately needs.

* Yes, Virginia, there was a world premiere at the Parkwood Cinema. “Johnny Tiger” with Robert Taylor and a shirtless Chad Everett, was filmed in Central Florida and had its opening in 1966.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Tiger

(It’s perhaps worth noting I was about 8 at the time and, upon seeing Chad in the movie, there was little doubt in my mind I preferred boys to girls. I also had a bit of a crush on David McCallum in an episode of “The Man From U.N.C.L.E” even before then  where he was tied up in a crewneck t-shirt and ample boxers -how scandalous! The idea that kids don’t know which way their attractions run at that age has always struck me as silly and I was a twice-a-week evangelical church kid back then.)

 

Edited by spenser1058
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