Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[angela1117]

22 hours ago, uncreativeusername said:

Ugh - what a disappointment. I'm not a teal fanboy or anything, but I have always loved this building exactly as it is. The color of the pyramids always read as a copper patina to me, and were an absolutely signature element of the building.

Agree 100%

[popsiclebrandon]

I don't think any of those are a go until rates drop or they find some huge equity partner with cash but that seems even more unlikely.

[jrs2]

On 3/7/2023 at 6:20 AM, prahaboheme said:

I doubt that very much. 

What exactly do you doubt very much, that Michigan Ave got looted, or that thugs walked out of Walgreens at 17/92 & Fairbanks with a cosmetic display counter, or that my pharmacist friend switched locations in Chicago suburbs because of Walgreens robberies?

[jrs2]

On 3/7/2023 at 9:19 AM, JFW657 said:

I guess this color change will make all the "teal haters" around here happy.      

I have mixed feelings now.  if anything, make the pyramids match the teal steel strip down the middle.  wasn't that the whole point, to emulate corroded copper (ala Statue of Liberty) but also hint to a Florida theme on the metal portions?

[codypet]

14 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I have mixed feelings now.  if anything, make the pyramids match the teal steel strip down the middle.  wasn't that the whole point, to emulate corroded copper (ala Statue of Liberty) but also hint to a Florida theme on the metal portions?

I mean there won't be teal in the middle so it'll be dark down the spine.  Will that look ok?  How long before the white pyramids end up looking gross?  It is pretty crazy to have a design for what?  35 years and then suddenly change it so drastically.

Edited March 10, 2023 by codypet

[dcluley98]

White is pretty stupid from a maintenance standpoint. 

 

I can understand making it dark patina grey/brown/bronze, but white makes no sense.  I didn't mind the teal as like said above it kind of replicated a copper patina and it was established, even if not "REALLY" copper.  I have a feeling they will paint it darker eventually, once they realize the obvious, LOL. 

[jgardnerucf]

Buzzard excrement should help it out.

[JFW657]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

I mean there won't be teal in the middle so it'll be dark down the spine.  Will that look ok?  How long before the white pyramids end up looking gross?  It is pretty crazy to have a design for what?  35 years and then suddenly change it so drastically.

Yep. 

 

Orlando.       

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, jgardnerucf said:

Buzzard excrement should help it out.

and at times, I've seen them circling above there continuously.

[JFW657]

9 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

and at times, I've seen them circling above there continuously.

Circling?

They hang out and party together up there.

 

[GregoryMCSE]

11 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

Circling?

They hang out and party together up there.

 

This is what Downtown Orlando and this board are about these days.  People are either mourning the loss of teal paint on a stumpy 440 foot building or arguing about the benefits of a downtown Walgreens.  Downtown Orlando is a corpse these days under this administration’s stagflation. No wonder buzzards are circling Orlando…

[jrs2]

46 minutes ago, GregoryMCSE said:

This is what Downtown Orlando and this board are about these days.  People are either mourning the loss of teal paint on a stumpy 440 foot building or arguing about the benefits of a downtown Walgreens.  Downtown Orlando is a corpse these days under this administration’s stagflation. No wonder buzzards are circling Orlando…

it is sad.

I was hoping the influx of thousands of college students at CV would jump start things, except, that by the time that the campus opened, Covid hit and most classes were done online.  That fiasco created an entire industry based on video conferencing.  First it was Zoom, then it was Teams- where Microsoft has made out like bandits (I know the Fed (among other entities) uses Teams for video conferencing).  

I'd like to know what the downtown body count is for students at present, and, what the occupancy rate is for CV apartments.  

The owners of the new place in the Wahlburgers space were skiddish on whether they'd make it a few weeks back.  I hope they survive but I don't know.  We went to a lunch last week at Boheme and there were maybe 5 tables with patrons.  If you walk up and down Orange Ave during a typical work day (outside of lunch hour) it is dead except for some homeless and vagrants here and there.  And during lunch hour there are a handful of places that are busy- Super RIco, Tin & Taco, Gringos, Kress, and a few others; the places in Suntrust Center are usually busy though...

I don't know what the answer is.  But I will tell you it ain't putting a quota on the number of bars downtown; it send the wrong message.

And...PH still hasn't opened yet...  That worries me.

[nite owℓ]

Other than weekend activities, downtown has been stagnant for ages. I wouldn't totally blame the administration for that, because the market usually dictates demand. The CRA also used financial incentives to lure development downtown that we might not normally get. If anything, high commercial rents make it difficult for businesses to thrive, most residents with low-mid salaries don't have discretionary income to spend to support local businesses, cheaply constructed apartments with lax screening/security don't foster an environment that encourages quality tenants to stick around long-term and the unsafe environment/lack of enforcement is a turn off for visitors. Meanwhile, Winter Park is thriving.

As someone who lived in the thick of it for a decade, people really seemed to go off the rails post-covid. Probably had something to do with being cooped up for so long during lockdowns. The general lawlessness occuring under OPD's nose and the shootings occurring every few months were becoming intolerable...

I support the city cracking down on bars who typically take zero responsibility for the riff raff they attract into the neighborhood, but the changes are too little too late for me. I didn't want to stick around to see the impact because Orlando is very slow to change, meanwhile residents are the ones bearing the burden while hoping things finally improve. Been there, done that.

I really wanted to see Downtown Orlando thrive and bought into the "Live, Work, Play" mantra, but I felt like I was waiting for Godot as spenser would say. I sold my condo overlooking Lake Eola last year and moved to a more residential part of downtown. Something that I never thought I'd do, but the list under my Cons column was becoming much longer than the Pros column. For the most part, I was still driving everywhere and wasn't losing much in terms of walkability. The views were nice, but after a while the novelty wears off. So what's left?? Nothing.

If money weren't an issue, I would sell my house and move to Winter Park and be done with downtown completely. Maybe I'm just getting old lol.

[JFW657]

9 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Other than weekend activities, downtown has been stagnant for ages. I wouldn't totally blame the administration for that, because the market usually dictates demand. The CRA also used financial incentives to lure development downtown that we might not normally get. If anything, high commercial rents make it difficult for businesses to thrive, most residents with low-mid salaries don't have discretionary income to spend to support local businesses, cheaply constructed apartments with lax screening/security don't foster an environment that encourages quality tenants to stick around long-term and the unsafe environment/lack of enforcement is a turn off for visitors. Meanwhile, Winter Park is thriving.

As someone who lived in the thick of it for a decade, people really seemed to go off the rails post-covid. Probably had something to do with being cooped up for so long during lockdowns. The general lawlessness occuring under OPD's nose and the shootings occurring every few months were becoming intolerable...

I support the city cracking down on bars who typically take zero responsibility for the riff raff they attract into the neighborhood, but the changes are too little too late for me. I didn't want to stick around to see the impact because Orlando is very slow to change, meanwhile residents are the ones bearing the burden while hoping things finally improve. Been there, done that.

I really wanted to see Downtown Orlando thrive and bought into the "Live, Work, Play" mantra, but I felt like I was waiting for Godot as spenser would say. I sold my condo overlooking Lake Eola last year and moved to a more residential part of downtown. Something that I never thought I'd do, but the list under my Cons column was becoming much longer than the Pros column. For the most part, I was still driving everywhere and wasn't losing much in terms of walkability. The views were nice, but after a while the novelty wears off. So what's left?? Nothing.

If money weren't an issue, I would sell my house and move to Winter Park and be done with downtown completely. Maybe I'm just getting old lol.

Well said.   

[jack]

16 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Other than weekend activities, downtown has been stagnant for ages. I wouldn't totally blame the administration for that, because the market usually dictates demand. The CRA also used financial incentives to lure development downtown that we might not normally get. If anything, high commercial rents make it difficult for businesses to thrive, most residents with low-mid salaries don't have discretionary income to spend to support local businesses, cheaply constructed apartments with lax screening/security don't foster an environment that encourages quality tenants to stick around long-term and the unsafe environment/lack of enforcement is a turn off for visitors. Meanwhile, Winter Park is thriving.

As someone who lived in the thick of it for a decade, people really seemed to go off the rails post-covid. Probably had something to do with being cooped up for so long during lockdowns. The general lawlessness occuring under OPD's nose and the shootings occurring every few months were becoming intolerable...

I support the city cracking down on bars who typically take zero responsibility for the riff raff they attract into the neighborhood, but the changes are too little too late for me. I didn't want to stick around to see the impact because Orlando is very slow to change, meanwhile residents are the ones bearing the burden while hoping things finally improve. Been there, done that.

I really wanted to see Downtown Orlando thrive and bought into the "Live, Work, Play" mantra, but I felt like I was waiting for Godot as spenser would say. I sold my condo overlooking Lake Eola last year and moved to a more residential part of downtown. Something that I never thought I'd do, but the list under my Cons column was becoming much longer than the Pros column. For the most part, I was still driving everywhere and wasn't losing much in terms of walkability. The views were nice, but after a while the novelty wears off. So what's left?? Nothing.

If money weren't an issue, I would sell my house and move to Winter Park and be done with downtown completely. Maybe I'm just getting old lol.

You are getting old my friend. And I did the same thing but did it sooner. 

I hope downtown recovers. The amount of time, money, etc. spent trying to make it better while it has become so dead during the day and evening hours. But the primary culprit has been the lack of activity and foot traffic M-F during the day. The weekends are not bad but during the week feels like a ghost town. Crime does not help either. 

[FLClarkKent]

3 minutes ago, jack said:

You are getting old my friend. And I did the same thing but did it sooner. 

I hope downtown recovers. The amount of time, money, etc. spent trying to make it better while it has become so dead during the day and evening hours. But the primary culprit has been the lack of activity and foot traffic M-F during the day. The weekends are not bad but during the week feels like a ghost town. Crime does not help either. 

I think what makes the situation feel especially discouraging is twofold.

First, there was a good vision and some tremendous efforts about 10 years ago. SunRail, DPAC, Amway, and Creative Village/UCF. Publix opened in South Eola, the theater opened in The Plaza. That art installation project for Lake Eola. There was a real emphasis on making downtown a true live/work/play destination.

Great stuff happened, but there was never any follow up. No plan to build and expand retail. No plan to expand SunRail service (there’s two stops in the heart of downtown for Pete’s sake). It’s almost as if leadership expected a snowball effect, like how Miami just keeps growing. But it didn’t happen.

Second, Covid has thrown everything out of whack. There’s not a lot of daytime “work” anymore,  but a whole lot of nighttime “play,” which makes a lot of people think downtown isn’t the best place for them to “live.”

And I don’t know if crime is better or worse than in years past, but the perception is that it’s bad. And ultimately, people’s perception is what shapes their decision about where to visit, shop, dine, live, etc.  And perceptions can be really hard to change once they take root.

Sadly it’s not clear to me if city leadership notices and/or cares.  And they certainly don’t seem to have a vision  let alone a plan, for the future of downtown.

 

 

[Uncommon]

2 hours ago, FLClarkKent said:

I think what makes the situation feel especially discouraging is twofold.

First, there was a good vision and some tremendous efforts about 10 years ago. SunRail, DPAC, Amway, and Creative Village/UCF. Publix opened in South Eola, the theater opened in The Plaza. That art installation project for Lake Eola. There was a real emphasis on making downtown a true live/work/play destination.

Great stuff happened, but there was never any follow up. No plan to build and expand retail. No plan to expand SunRail service (there’s two stops in the heart of downtown for Pete’s sake). It’s almost as if leadership expected a snowball effect, like how Miami just keeps growing. But it didn’t happen.

Second, Covid has thrown everything out of whack. There’s not a lot of daytime “work” anymore,  but a whole lot of nighttime “play,” which makes a lot of people think downtown isn’t the best place for them to “live.”

And I don’t know if crime is better or worse than in years past, but the perception is that it’s bad. And ultimately, people’s perception is what shapes their decision about where to visit, shop, dine, live, etc.  And perceptions can be really hard to change once they take root.

Sadly it’s not clear to me if city leadership notices and/or cares.  And they certainly don’t seem to have a vision  let alone a plan, for the future of downtown.

 

 

Great post. I'm still a believer in downtown. Yea there are other places I'd consider first and I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable going downtown unless it was for a specific purpose (Magic game, DPAC show, clubbing/drinking/bar hopping etc), as opposed to just walking around and taking in the sights. But downtown is still VERY lively at night and in line with downtowns of other cities of Orlando's size. Whether or not the liveliness jives with your opinion of what downtown should be is a different story. 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Uncommon

[JFW657]

I haven't been to DTO on a weekday in a very long time, so I'm curious as to how dead it feels compared to the way I remember it.

As I recall, even in the 90's and early 00's, the sidewalks were only really crowded from around noon to 2 pm or thereabouts, when people were coming and going to lunch. Otherwise, it was only moderately active even then. 

I have something I need to visit the library for, so maybe I'll make a midweek visit and see for myself.  

[prahaboheme]

I’m sure a lot of us are “getting old” here and that has something to do with a desire for a bygone era but as a relative outsider at this point, I can tell you that downtown Orlando does feel different than in years past.

Its not a South boomtown akin to Nashville, Austin, Raleigh, etc.  It feels and looks more like Memphis or dare I say, JAX.

Spenser was on the money that a lack of leadership has greatly impacted a once thriving city center.

Edited March 12, 2023 by prahaboheme

[Uncommon]

58 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

I’m sure a lot of us are “getting old” here and that has something to do with a desire for a bygone era but as a relative outsider at this point, I can tell you that downtown Orlando does feel different than in years past.

Its not a South boomtown akin to Nashville, Austin, Raleigh, etc.  It feels and looks more like Memphis or dare I say, JAX.

Spenser was on the money that a lack of leadership has greatly impacted a once thriving city center.

I disagree 1000%. It is definitely still a southern boomtown, with downtown being very similar to Austin, Charlotte, Tampa etc. I wouldn't say Nashville and downtown Orlando are similar. If anything, downtown Nashville is more like I-Drive.

But your mentions of Memphis and Jacksonville are concerning and from my standpoint, wildly inaccurate. I'm trying hard not to attribute the mention of Memphis to coded language having to do with demographics. And I'm unsure of when you last visited Jacksonville but it is absolutely dead downtown, with more vagrants than patrons at all hours of the day, save for Jaguars game days.

Feel free to bemoan downtown Orlando's plight during the weekday all you want but at night, it is definitely similar to its peers.

[JFW657]

IMO, we shouldn't put all the blame for any perceived deficiencies in DTO on the city's leadership either, although there is always room for criticism and critique.

But some, like our dearly departed friend spenser, seemed to be of the notion that the mayor and his staff had some kind magic "leadership wand" that, had it been waved it properly, would have resulted in retail and dining establishments climbing over each other's backs for the opportunity to locate here.

In reality of course, there is only so much good leadership can accomplish. They have to work with what they've got to work with, and that is really the main determining factor in the achievability of any desired results.  

There are so many intangibles that affect the retail environment in DTO, it cannot just be attributed to a lack of leadership or any other one factor alone.  Apparently things like demographics, the amount and proximity of competition etc, etc, work against DTO in attracting certain types of businesses. 

I would think, that if DTO had traditionally been seen as a prime daytime and evening retail shopping and dining environment, city leadership wouldn't have to put a ton of effort into attracting it here.  It would be coming here on its own. 

JMHO.   

59 minutes ago, Uncommon said:

I disagree 1000%. It is definitely still a southern boomtown, with downtown being very similar to Austin, Charlotte, Tampa etc. I wouldn't say Nashville and downtown Orlando are similar. If anything, downtown Nashville is more like I-Drive.

But your mentions of Memphis and Jacksonville are concerning and from my standpoint, wildly inaccurate. I'm trying hard not to attribute the mention of Memphis to coded language having to do with demographics. And I'm unsure of when you last visited Jacksonville but it is absolutely dead downtown, with more vagrants than patrons at all hours of the day, save for Jaguars game days.

Feel free to bemoan downtown Orlando's plight during the weekday all you want but at night, it is definitely similar to its peers.

I assumed he just meant kind of barren, deserted, tattered looking and dead during normal business hours.  

[Uncommon]

19 hours ago, JFW657 said:

IMO, we shouldn't put all the blame for any perceived deficiencies in DTO on the city's leadership either, although there is always room for criticism and critique.

But some, like our dearly departed friend spenser, seemed to be of the notion that the mayor and his staff had some kind magic "leadership wand" that, had it been waved it properly, would have resulted in retail and dining establishments climbing over each other's backs for the opportunity to locate here.

In reality of course, there is only so much good leadership can accomplish. They have to work with what they've got to work with, and that is really the main determining factor in the achievability of any desired results.  

There are so many intangibles that affect the retail environment in DTO, it cannot just be attributed to a lack of leadership or any other one factor alone.  Apparently things like demographics, the amount and proximity of competition etc, etc, work against DTO in attracting certain types of businesses. 

I would think, that if DTO had traditionally been seen as a prime daytime and evening retail shopping and dining environment, city leadership wouldn't have to put a ton of effort into attracting it here.  It would be coming here on its own. 

JMHO.   

I assumed he just meant kind of barren, deserted, tattered looking and dead during normal business hours.  

Okay, could be I was just reading into it incorrectly. If so, I didn't mean to and I apologize @prahaboheme

[codypet]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:55 PM, nite owℓ said:

Other than weekend activities, downtown has been stagnant for ages. I wouldn't totally blame the administration for that, because the market usually dictates demand. The CRA also used financial incentives to lure development downtown that we might not normally get. If anything, high commercial rents make it difficult for businesses to thrive, most residents with low-mid salaries don't have discretionary income to spend to support local businesses, cheaply constructed apartments with lax screening/security don't foster an environment that encourages quality tenants to stick around long-term and the unsafe environment/lack of enforcement is a turn off for visitors. Meanwhile, Winter Park is thriving.

As someone who lived in the thick of it for a decade, people really seemed to go off the rails post-covid. Probably had something to do with being cooped up for so long during lockdowns. The general lawlessness occuring under OPD's nose and the shootings occurring every few months were becoming intolerable...

I support the city cracking down on bars who typically take zero responsibility for the riff raff they attract into the neighborhood, but the changes are too little too late for me. I didn't want to stick around to see the impact because Orlando is very slow to change, meanwhile residents are the ones bearing the burden while hoping things finally improve. Been there, done that.

I really wanted to see Downtown Orlando thrive and bought into the "Live, Work, Play" mantra, but I felt like I was waiting for Godot as spenser would say. I sold my condo overlooking Lake Eola last year and moved to a more residential part of downtown. Something that I never thought I'd do, but the list under my Cons column was becoming much longer than the Pros column. For the most part, I was still driving everywhere and wasn't losing much in terms of walkability. The views were nice, but after a while the novelty wears off. So what's left?? Nothing.

If money weren't an issue, I would sell my house and move to Winter Park and be done with downtown completely. Maybe I'm just getting old lol.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the group of people who behave themselves and still visit the bars are over at the Milk, Hourglass, or Ivanhoe/Virginia/Mills50.  The owners of the Lodge were smart.  Bought Burton's when the opportunity arose, then sold Lodge and Woods and bought Bull and Bush.  They knew where their crowd was.  

[jrs2]

On 3/10/2023 at 10:55 PM, nite owℓ said:

Other than weekend activities, downtown has been stagnant for ages. I wouldn't totally blame the administration for that, because the market usually dictates demand. The CRA also used financial incentives to lure development downtown that we might not normally get. If anything, high commercial rents make it difficult for businesses to thrive, most residents with low-mid salaries don't have discretionary income to spend to support local businesses, cheaply constructed apartments with lax screening/security don't foster an environment that encourages quality tenants to stick around long-term and the unsafe environment/lack of enforcement is a turn off for visitors. Meanwhile, Winter Park is thriving.

As someone who lived in the thick of it for a decade, people really seemed to go off the rails post-covid. Probably had something to do with being cooped up for so long during lockdowns. The general lawlessness occuring under OPD's nose and the shootings occurring every few months were becoming intolerable...

I support the city cracking down on bars who typically take zero responsibility for the riff raff they attract into the neighborhood, but the changes are too little too late for me. I didn't want to stick around to see the impact because Orlando is very slow to change, meanwhile residents are the ones bearing the burden while hoping things finally improve. Been there, done that.

I really wanted to see Downtown Orlando thrive and bought into the "Live, Work, Play" mantra, but I felt like I was waiting for Godot as spenser would say. I sold my condo overlooking Lake Eola last year and moved to a more residential part of downtown. Something that I never thought I'd do, but the list under my Cons column was becoming much longer than the Pros column. For the most part, I was still driving everywhere and wasn't losing much in terms of walkability. The views were nice, but after a while the novelty wears off. So what's left?? Nothing.

If money weren't an issue, I would sell my house and move to Winter Park and be done with downtown completely. Maybe I'm just getting old lol.

MaiTai has brunches on Saturdays and Sundays that are a massive hit.  A few weeks back I spoke to the new manager of the new place going into the Plaza South Tower corner spot where Kasa and Urban Flats once were.  They are aware of Wine Down and plan to host events like that...so, we'll see...

But I think a major problem is that PH has not opened yet.  If that could just get to the opened status, they will be attracting a crowd all of the time.  Now it's just dead.  And Third Thursdays, IMO, isn't anywhere what it once was when they were in City Arts, b/c then, it was a network of venues.

PH is at Pine St & Orange.  From there, it's radius of patrons south, north, and east, and west is very central.  It's the same owners as before, so they have a lot of clout with the community...they just need to get it opened.

On 3/13/2023 at 9:33 AM, codypet said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the group of people who behave themselves and still visit the bars are over at the Milk, Hourglass, or Ivanhoe/Virginia/Mills50.  The owners of the Lodge were smart.  Bought Burton's when the opportunity arose, then sold Lodge and Woods and bought Bull and Bush.  They knew where their crowd was.  

...so Woods/Lodge is new ownership...Woods is a pretty tame crowd...still should be, right?

[nite owℓ]

On 3/11/2023 at 3:47 PM, FLClarkKent said:

And I don’t know if crime is better or worse than in years past, but the perception is that it’s bad. And ultimately, people’s perception is what shapes their decision about where to visit, shop, dine, live, etc.  And perceptions can be really hard to change once they take root.

Just wanted to say the shootings in Downtown Orlando did get worse though. There is a reason why the city set up security checkpoints and it's because crime was getting out of hand. I wish there was an easy way to obtain shooting and crime stats for the CBD... all I had to go off of were little blurbs of news reports that we were coming across.

When I said there was a shooting almost every other month, I was not being sarcastic. In 2022 alone, I texted a friend there were at least 3-4 shootings for the year by May 2022. Then the mass shooting happened near Wall St in July. Security checkpoints erected in August. Then yet another shooting just outside of the newly erected security checkpoints in September which was like the cherry on top:  https://bungalower.com/2022/09/19/two-people-shot-in-downtown-orlando-sunday-eveningtik/

CRA money is funding the checkpoints so far at approx $40k/weekend (Fri & Sat only - not sure if Sunday was later added). Bar owners saying they cannot afford to shoulder the cost to maintain checkpoints. Do I want to stick around and see what kind of half-arsed compromise they would come up with? No. Criminals don't even care there is a police substation nearby and some of the criminals get away scot-free.

All of that occurred in the CBD in 2022. Sadly I'm not even including shootings that happened in Parramore nor am I including previous years of 2020, 2021.

I've lived in the CBD for 10 years I can say I've never seen the cumulative # of shootings get as bad as it was in 2022. While anecdotal, I just want to say that I also served in a position  for my building that allowed me to see security reports of the goings on in and around my building and speak w/security guards that would liason with OPD and other condo buildings downtown. So I tended to hear a little more about day to day crime than others. It was important to me, however, there is an element of the populace that prefers not to know the about the nitty gritty occurring just below the surface but I am not one of those.

The shootings alone did not prompt me to sell because unfortunately there is a bit of crime that goes with the territory of living downtown (though it weighted the score in my Cons column). The persistent stagnation of Downtown Orlando, lack of meaningful retail, shortsighted demolition of 7-eleven next to Lake Eola which indefinitely blighted that intersection, as well as other varied concerns about the health of downtown are what prompted me to move.

If downtown were on a stereotypical gentrification upswing I would've happily stayed put. But to stay put under current conditions with no growth in sight (going back years, even Before Covid) is what made me want to get off this ride. I walked away with a decent chunk of change, but I would've gladly stayed put if the quality of growth was on par with the revitalization seen in Winter Park, Miami, etc. Hell... I'd love to get back to the pre-recession boom that Downtown Orlando experienced in 2003 onward, but I just don't see it happening any time soon which is kind of heartbreaking. Apologies for the long-winded post.