Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[jrs2]

17 minutes ago, nite owℓ said:

Just wanted to say the shootings in Downtown Orlando did get worse though. There is a reason why the city set up security checkpoints and it's because crime was getting out of hand. I wish there was an easy way to obtain shooting and crime stats for the CBD... all I had to go off of were little blurbs of news reports that we were coming across.

When I said there was a shooting almost every other month, I was not being sarcastic. In 2022 alone, I texted a friend there were at least 3-4 shootings for the year by May 2022. Then the mass shooting happened near Wall St in July. Security checkpoints erected in August. Then yet another shooting just outside of the newly erected security checkpoints in September which was like the cherry on top:  https://bungalower.com/2022/09/19/two-people-shot-in-downtown-orlando-sunday-eveningtik/

CRA money is funding the checkpoints so far at approx $40k/weekend (Fri & Sat only - not sure if Sunday was later added). Bar owners saying they cannot afford to shoulder the cost to maintain checkpoints. Do I want to stick around and see what kind of half-arsed compromise they would come up with? No. Criminals don't even care there is a police substation nearby and some of the criminals get away scot-free.

All of that occurred in the CBD in 2022. Sadly I'm not even including shootings that happened in Parramore nor am I including previous years of 2020, 2021.

I've lived in the CBD for 10 years I can say I've never seen the cumulative # of shootings get as bad as it was in 2022. While anecdotal, I just want to say that I also served in a position  for my building that allowed me to see security reports of the goings on in and around my building and speak w/security guards that would liason with OPD and other condo buildings downtown. So I tended to hear a little more about day to day crime than others. It was important to me, however, there is an element of the populace that prefers not to know the about the nitty gritty occurring just below the surface but I am not one of those.

The shootings alone did not prompt me to sell because unfortunately there is a bit of crime that goes with the territory of living downtown (though it weighted the score in my Cons column). The persistent stagnation of Downtown Orlando, lack of meaningful retail, shortsighted demolition of 7-eleven next to Lake Eola which indefinitely blighted that intersection, as well as other varied concerns about the health of downtown are what prompted me to move.

If downtown were on a stereotypical gentrification upswing I would've happily stayed put. But to stay put under current conditions with no growth in sight (going back years, even Before Covid) is what made me want to get off this ride. I walked away with a decent chunk of change, but I would've gladly stayed put if the quality of growth was on par with the revitalization seen in Winter Park, Miami, etc. Hell... I'd love to get back to the pre-recession boom that Downtown Orlando experienced in 2003 onward, but I just don't see it happening any time soon which is kind of heartbreaking. Apologies for the long-winded post.

wow.  you think you're long winded?  check out my insufferable posts.

but careful when you document crime and crime numbers about downtown or some on these boards will respond to you with "I seriously doubt that" or similar.  I tried to tell people about Walgreens and I pretty much got denied out of the discussion by the deniers (or a denier).  

forget shootings.  How about people breaking into cars in garages like Citrus Center and Plaza?  That's crime to deter people as well.  A security guard ran down a suspect caught on tape, called OPD and told them where the suspect was (on Orange Ave and harassing patrons at an outdoor seating bar near Washington), and OPD pretty much gave the guard the finger...five months ago.  How do I know?  Because it was my car that was involved.  Or do I need to produce an incident report to prove that it happened to the deniers.  Who the hec was that?  It was in the thread discussing Walgreens closing downtown.

[codypet]

14 hours ago, jrs2 said:

...so Woods/Lodge is new ownership...Woods is a pretty tame crowd...still should be, right?

They tried for a bit to keep the Lodge concept, but my understanding is following the sale, the crowd left, so they're going to turn that into an Aero style club without the rooftop.

[nite owℓ]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:16 PM, jrs2 said:

wow.  you think you're long winded?  check out my insufferable posts.

but careful when you document crime and crime numbers about downtown or some on these boards will respond to you with "I seriously doubt that" or similar.  I tried to tell people about Walgreens and I pretty much got denied out of the discussion by the deniers (or a denier).  

forget shootings.  How about people breaking into cars in garages like Citrus Center and Plaza?  That's crime to deter people as well.  A security guard ran down a suspect caught on tape, called OPD and told them where the suspect was (on Orange Ave and harassing patrons at an outdoor seating bar near Washington), and OPD pretty much gave the guard the finger...five months ago.  How do I know?  Because it was my car that was involved.  Or do I need to produce an incident report to prove that it happened to the deniers.  Who the hec was that?  It was in the thread discussing Walgreens closing downtown.

Yep, that goes in hand with the lack of enforcement issue that I was talking about in my first post. 50/50 chance OPD would show up in a timely manner and/or respond appropriately. Sometimes you'd get really thorough officers and other times the officer makes you scatch your head out of confusion. I don't know if they have certain dept. directives to follow or if some of them just have a high tolerance for petty crime, but it all start to add up and erode the quality of life.

[codypet]

4 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Yep, that goes in hand with the lack of enforcement issue that I was talking about in my first post. 50/50 chance OPD would show up in a timely manner and/or respond appropriately. Sometimes you'd get really thorough officers and other times the officer makes you scatch your head out of confusion. I don't know if they have certain dept. directives to follow or if some of them just have a high tolerance for petty crime, but it all start to add up and erode the quality of life.

You're right.  It is the most 50/50 department I've seen.  I had a car crash a month ago and the responding officer botched his investigation which caused huge problems for me in insurance.  The officer didn't even look at my vehicle and made a determination of fault that ran counter to the dashcam footage.

A few months ago there was a person with 4 flat tires circling the neighborhood and after numerous calls to OPD, there was never a response.  The car drove in circles for 30 mins until they got bored and left.  OPD never showed (according to the call center they had a lot of calls and someone was coming from the airport)

But if your home alarm system accidentally goes off, they'll be there in 2 mins to hand you a false alarm warning.

[AndyPok1]

On 3/13/2023 at 9:33 AM, codypet said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the group of people who behave themselves and still visit the bars are over at the Milk, Hourglass, or Ivanhoe/Virginia/Mills50.  The owners of the Lodge were smart.  Bought Burton's when the opportunity arose, then sold Lodge and Woods and bought Bull and Bush.  They knew where their crowd was.  

I think its a circle honestly.  The people who enjoyed the Lodge for the past 10 years either moved to the suburbs and had kids or moved to a neighborhood like the ones you mention and its easier to go to a local bar.  The next generation of people living and partying downtown simply had minimal interest in The Lodge besides like an hour drop in.  It wasn't the hang out all night spot.  Things are cyclical.  Fuel nd Swiggs are going on 5+ years and Stagger is more popular than even I feel.  That's where people are hanging out these days and people are "behaving themselves" just as much as Lodge.  We have rose-colored glasses.  So many phones and jackets were stolen from Lodge.

[codypet]

21 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

I think its a circle honestly.  The people who enjoyed the Lodge for the past 10 years either moved to the suburbs and had kids or moved to a neighborhood like the ones you mention and its easier to go to a local bar.  The next generation of people living and partying downtown simply had minimal interest in The Lodge besides like an hour drop in.  It wasn't the hang out all night spot.  Things are cyclical.  Fuel nd Swiggs are going on 5+ years and Stagger is more popular than even I feel.  That's where people are hanging out these days and people are "behaving themselves" just as much as Lodge.  We have rose-colored glasses.  So many phones and jackets were stolen from Lodge.

Phones yes and Eye Spy too, but other than the bouncer getting stabbed just before Covid, I don't remember anyone being shot at or dying.

[jrs2]

On 3/18/2023 at 11:53 PM, AndyPok1 said:

I think its a circle honestly.  The people who enjoyed the Lodge for the past 10 years either moved to the suburbs and had kids or moved to a neighborhood like the ones you mention and its easier to go to a local bar.  The next generation of people living and partying downtown simply had minimal interest in The Lodge besides like an hour drop in.  It wasn't the hang out all night spot.  Things are cyclical.  Fuel nd Swiggs are going on 5+ years and Stagger is more popular than even I feel.  That's where people are hanging out these days and people are "behaving themselves" just as much as Lodge.  We have rose-colored glasses.  So many phones and jackets were stolen from Lodge.

A lot has changed.  I remember Rhythm & Flow where JJ's is now; Monkey Bar; Slingapour's, Urban Flats at the Plaza, etc...  That's recently; not even talking about early 2000's with Lili Marlene's and that bunch of places on Church St.  There was also a slew of patrons to those places that I know and knew that either left downtown or just moved on.  Crowds change and then the businesses either close, move, or change concept.

I didn't know that (crime) about The Lodge.

[jrs2]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/major-orange-county-venues-to-seek-tourist-tax-dollars-for-projects/vi-AA18uhuB

this article has to do with the tourist tax- a record for 2022, with money to benefit dpac partly, and also the OCCC (which is in that other thread).

[dcluley98]

Noticed this the other day walking down Orange Ave. They are creating a new giant mural downtown on the brick wall of the empty lot at Orange and Pine. 

So far just the partial sketch outline, but apparently it includes the Lake Eola fountain and amphitheater, the Orlando Eye, a rocket ship, what looks like space mountain, and a GIANT FREAKING ICE CREAM CONE:

 

[codypet]

That's what happened before the last building burned down.

[prahaboheme]

Is the empty lot city owned? It’s a shame it’s been sitting empty all these years. 

[codypet]

16 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Is the empty lot city owned? It’s a shame it’s been sitting empty all these years. 

Nope.  Its owned by a company called 30 S Orange LLC.  I know that that there's a business liability case for this, but crap like that is so annoying to me.   At some point it'll be owned by 30 S Orange Holdings LLC, and 30 South LLC

[JFW657]

20 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Noticed this the other day walking down Orange Ave. They are creating a new giant mural downtown on the brick wall of the empty lot at Orange and Pine. 

So far just the partial sketch outline, but apparently it includes the Lake Eola fountain and amphitheater, the Orlando Eye, a rocket ship, what looks like space mountain, and a GIANT FREAKING ICE CREAM CONE:

I'm trying to withhold judgement on it until it's finished, but just based on the subject matter alone, it looks to me to be a typically Orlando crap design. 

IMHO, it should just be a really cool rendering of the downtown skyline at night rather than all that namby-pamby, happy feel-good Disney ice cream cone tourist crap. 

OTOH, a crappy mural might create a greater incentive to hurry up and erect a new building there to cover it up with.  

[dcluley98]

What do you have against Ice Cream cones? 

[jrs2]

18 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Is the empty lot city owned? It’s a shame it’s been sitting empty all these years. 

blame the City.  it would have been redeveloped right around the time prior to the bust but their ordinance requiring parking killed a proposal which was being bounced around.

[jrs2]

48 minutes ago, JFW657 said:

I'm trying to withhold judgement on it until it's finished, but just based on the subject matter alone, it looks to me to be a typically Orlando crap design. 

IMHO, it should just be a really cool rendering of the downtown skyline at night rather than all that namby-pamby, happy feel-good Disney ice cream cone tourist crap. 

OTOH, a crappy mural might create a greater incentive to hurry up and erect a new building there to cover it up with.  

uh, huh huh...

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

What do you have against Ice Cream cones? 

Aside from the high sugar content and high levels of carbohydrates, nothing at all.

Love them!!! 

But on a downtown wall mural?

Meh. 

I'd have rather seen something more akin to this....

Minus the drop tower now, of course....    

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, jrs2 said:

blame the City.  it would have been redeveloped right around the time prior to the bust but their ordinance requiring parking killed a proposal which was being bounced around.

I remember that. Started out at three stories which was disappointing enough, then in typical Orlando fashion, shrank to two.

Had some kind of rooftop drinking and dining component as recall.

Maybe the city will someday renege on it's parking requirement and allow a real building to go up there.

For the time being though, it would make an awesome spot for a container park with food vendors. 

[codypet]

4 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

What do you have against Ice Cream cones? 

They melt in FL before you have time to finish the  cone.   Cups all the way.

4 hours ago, jrs2 said:

blame the City.  it would have been redeveloped right around the time prior to the bust but their ordinance requiring parking killed a proposal which was being bounced around.

I think the City has already ended the parking requirement.  Right?

3 hours ago, JFW657 said:

Aside from the high sugar content and high levels of carbohydrates, nothing at all.

Love them!!! 

But on a downtown wall mural?

Meh. 

I'd have rather seen something more akin to this....

Minus the drop tower now, of course....    

Is that the Drop Tower or the Sea World Tower with the two story car on it?  

[JFW657]

21 minutes ago, codypet said:

Is that the Drop Tower or the Sea World Tower with the two story car on it?  

I assumed it was the Drop Tower, but looking at it more closely, I think you're correct re: it being the Sea World Tower.   

[prahaboheme]

While I can (somewhat) understand the need for parking requirements when it comes to new condo/apt buildings, I don’t for a small infill lot like 30 S Orange. 
The building would likely be a small 3ish story development with restaurant / retail on the first few floors with maybe a loft style office on the upper floors. The multiple of garages in the vicinity could absorb the traffic, most of which would be nice pedestrian oriented anyway: 

[codypet]

3 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

While I can (somewhat) understand the need for parking requirements when it comes to new condo/apt buildings, I don’t for a small infill lot like 30 S Orange. 
The building would likely be a small 3ish story development with restaurant / retail on the first few floors with maybe a loft style office on the upper floors. The multiple of garages in the vicinity could absorb the traffic, most of which would be nice pedestrian oriented anyway: 

Why did the City build public garages if it wasn't for that exact purpose anyway?

[jack]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

Why did the City build public garages if it wasn't for that exact purpose anyway?

They can waive the requirement. Retail and hotel I believe still have no minimum parking requirement in the core. 

[jrs2]

21 hours ago, codypet said:

They melt in FL before you have time to finish the  cone.   Cups all the way.

I think the City has already ended the parking requirement.  Right?

Is that the Drop Tower or the Sea World Tower with the two story car on it?  

I'm not sure.  I heard a lot of stuff from commercial realtors and the construction company(ies) in and around that time discussing that parking issue with the City...circa 2006-2008.   I think it burned down in 2004-05.  Plaza was u/c I think late 2005-2008.

what's interesting about it is that the foundation is still there...

[AmIReal]

2 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I'm not sure.  I heard a lot of stuff from commercial realtors and the construction company(ies) in and around that time discussing that parking issue with the City...circa 2006-2008.   I think it burned down in 2004-05.  Plaza was u/c I think late 2005-2008.

what's interesting about it is that the foundation is still there...

https://www.yourcommunitypaper.com/articles/end-of-parking-minimums-an-optimistic-step-toward-orlando-urbanism/