Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[XpressEnterprise]

Magic Talks About Building $100M Complex

http://www.groworlan...0m-complex.html

Wow, what do you all think about this?

Magic might build $100M entertainment complex across from Amway Center

I'm having a hard time trying to decide if I like the idea.

Sorry Alex, you beat me to it . I was finally exciting to have some development news.

Edited September 14, 2011 by XpressEnterprise

[bulldogger]

The building housing Glatting Jackson is being dubbed The Arcades. This may not be news, but I don't recall the building getting a new name.

http://www.orlandoslice.com/events/photographer-yatin-presents-sutra

[bulldogger]

My guess is that this "news" was "uncovered" when the Sentinel went nosing around looking for more information about the Amway Center's spire. People's money went into that building and they want to know what's going to happen.

Wow, what do you all think about this?

Magic might build $100M entertainment complex across from Amway Center

I'm having a hard time trying to decide if I like the idea.

[prahaboheme]

I'm loving the sound of this development. I especially like the hotel/conference component along with the relocation of the headquarters from RDV to downtown Orlando. That would set a nice precedent, I would think. Also, the architecture would likely mirror the contemporary style of the arena, giving that stretch a nice, modern feel.

[alex]

The project sounds awesome, but of all the empty lots in Parramore, why 1) tear down an important garage for Amway attendees and 2) destroy 11 small businesses? "They noted that the city and the Magic subsidized the tenants' rent during construction of the arena." That's nice, but normal for major construction that impedes business flow, and imo not enough reason to just kick people out. This would be a huge step back for the development of a Parramore business community. If they plan to sell the land at a "fair market price," why wouldn't they just buy one of the equally-sized blocks of land one block west or one block north? Yeah, having the Center and the HQ next to each other makes sense, but it won't have much impact on the community if it doesn't make people move around.

[steve_o]

The project sounds awesome, but of all the empty lots in Parramore, why 1) tear down an important garage for Amway attendees and 2) destroy 11 small businesses? "They noted that the city and the Magic subsidized the tenants' rent during construction of the arena." That's nice, but normal for major construction that impedes business flow, and imo not enough reason to just kick people out. This would be a huge step back for the development of a Parramore business community. If they plan to sell the land at a "fair market price," why wouldn't they just buy one of the equally-sized blocks of land one block west or one block north? Yeah, having the Center and the HQ next to each other makes sense, but it won't have much impact on the community if it doesn't make people move around.

That garage is an eyesore and hardly worth saving. I'm sure there will not be less parking spaces when all is said and done. Like praha said above, hopefully it will extend the modern architecture and prove to be a great space to spend time.

Have you seen the LA Live entertainment complex they are taking cues from? Sorry, but a prime location parking garage will not be missed.

[alex]

You're right, the location deserves better than a parking garage. I wonder how close they can get to the LA Live vibe in what looks like a much smaller space. Would it mean a second movie theater for downtown, or what's usually in an entertainment complex?

I'm not saying I don't think it'll be great for downtown. I definitely hope it gets built. But it irks me when they use big projects like that to get "community points." It won't change what's going on in Parramore one bit. </debby downer>

[smileguy]

The OBJ article says this project would talk up the entire block - does this mean a new Police HQ - if so, is there somewhere downtown for it to be built, and will the Magic pay for that? Also, what happened to the idea of revitalizing Church Street east of I-4? It seems that this would put that energy into the new development.

[spenser1058]

The OBJ article says this project would talk up the entire block - does this mean a new Police HQ - if so, is there somewhere downtown for it to be built, and will the Magic pay for that? Also, what happened to the idea of revitalizing Church Street east of I-4? It seems that this would put that energy into the new development.

One of Buddy's campaign promises was to relocate OPD HQ to a site in Parramore. The building is about 40 years old and was constructed for both OPD and the long-gone city courts - it has been a white elephant for decades.

[prahaboheme]

According to OBJ, the police department would not be demolished: "Existing structures on the property — excluding the Orlando Police Department — likely will be demolished for the project."

[DeepEyez]

Well I hope they demolish it and relocate it close by. No need in killing the vibe the Orlando Magic are going after.

Also, RDV is probably going to build something similar to what he has in Michigan.

[John Hargrove]

When I read that article earlier today I didn't get the impression they would wipe out the Church Street Garage, but I guess that's how it reads. I find that surprising.

That said, I can part with those places and that garage. It's sad, but even as a resident of 55W I can't be bothered to cross under I-4 unless I'm going to a Magic game. May as well create something that compliments the arena rather than struggles to survive on the event-based foot traffic.

[prahaboheme]

I'm assuming the hotel component of this development (a W perhaps?) would front the intersection of Church St / Hughey Ave, closest to the arena entrance and the rest of downtown -- still a bit removed from Paramore. It is also the most prominent location on the lot, capitalizing on downtown skyline views (important for any hotel). RDV's headquarters would then take up space along Division Avenue, sharing that corner with Hughes Supply. The interior of the lot would include entertainment options and parking.

[spenser1058]

Downtown condo enters bankruptcy

Developers of downtown condo project Star Tower, where units that sold for $750,000 three years ago and then went for less than $200,000 last year, filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy recently.

Star Creations Development LLC, a division of Royal Palm Homes, developed the project that opened in 2007 — at the peak market. With floor-to-ceiling glass in the units and a rooftop pool, developer Steve Kodsi hoped the architectural elements of the project would help distinguish it on the market. Star Tower's two-bedroom units had 1,765 square feet.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-cfb-real-estate-star-091911-20110912,0,3800910.story

Here's one answer as to why Tampa and Miami are rebounding while we aren't yet. With DPAC coming along and whatever the Magic chooses to do, as well as lots of chatter about more apartments (rather than condos), things are far from bleak. But I really believe Buddy has to focus on retail and start hiring retail experts for positions like DDB instead of political appointments. As someone noted over at Skyscraper City, there are way too many wig shops and tattoo parlors (I disagree with that, actually- the tattoo parlors are even closing) downtown, which is a function of too many bars. There is a gaping hole in the clock for folks downtown between the time they leave work and late-night partying which retail can fill if we bring in some experts. We've tried having the folks from "outside" ask nicely, but it appears that retail only occurs when spurred by members of the "fraternity." Interestingly, I read an article recently that even NYC is having trouble with retail on the bottom of towers.

That certainly suggests it has to do with the economy, so let's start with the basics. We have a grocery store and a movie theater, let's go for a 24-hour drugstore and a hardware store. I still believe if people have to get in their car to find necessities (even if it's just a drive to SoDo or Colonialtown), it defeats the purpose of living in a tower downtown. C'mon Buddy, let's focus on the need!

[jack]

The market is not there for a drug store. CVS and Walgreens have looked multiple times. The numbers are not there and will need a deep subsidy to operate. Publix offers everything a drugstore would anyway except they are in South Eola and is a good hike from Orange ave.

[spenser1058]

The market is not there for a drug store. CVS and Walgreens have looked multiple times. The numbers are not there and will need a deep subsidy to operate. Publix offers everything a drugstore would anyway except they are in South Eola and is a good hike from Orange ave.

That tells me we have the wrong person in the job trying to sell it. Walgreens opened a unit at 1200 S Kuhl (Kuhl, for God's sake!), which admittedly is mostly prescriptions for ORMC, but there is even a small cafe in there. It points up the kinds of specialty projects Walgreens is increasingly famous for: they have begun to add produce (produce!) at some of their inner-city Chicago stores and are even selling specialty beers in bulk at their Duane Reade stores in NYC.

If they aren't thinking outside the suburban box as regards downtown, we have the wrong person from the city making the case. A Walgreens could do well with all the people who work downtown for picking up prescriptions, replacing torn pantyhose and replacing other beauty items, with the after-work folks and the residents mid-evening and then catering to the late night party crowd with the types of things 7-Eleven is selling (if the rumor of a second 7-Eleven coming to the Plaza to join the 55W store is true, they're obviously finding something to sell to those folks).

Yes, Publix has a pharmacy (it's the one I use), but it closes early and the stock of health and beauty items is one aisle (versus much of the store in a Walgreens) - if you're looking for much variety, they simply don't have it. And if I get sick late at night, I have to drive to the suburbs when downtown is supposed to be the 24-hour district. Is something wrong with that picture?

A drug store is important, but there are other options. The important thing is to start broadening the options of the retail we encourage - the city has dropped the ball entirely on encouraging the types of things people actually use (we do not need more bars, we do not need more restaurants; instead of a candy store, where are the bakeries, butcher shops, seafood stores that residents actually need?) Again, that comes from a retail expert, not a political novice (those are all items that a savvy retail person could attract from local sources - a branch of Petty's Meats? Lombardi's Seafood? The cupcake store over on Corrine Drive? Or, chains like the Meat House that just opened on Orange Ave. in WP. If subsidies are required, let's drive the subsidies in things we need, not more bars, restaurants that we have too many of - not to mention, ahem, candy stores where the product can't be taken into the new arena.

Alternatively, maybe Buddy should consider a committee of local retailers from stores like those and the owner of the local Ace Hardware franchise to figure out ways to bring retail back downtown. The bottom line, the people in charge of such things have failed. Let's try another way.

Living downtown is expensive and Orlando's median income tends to lag behind other cities. If we want to make the downtown core work so that people can afford to pay the premium to live in towers in the initial selling price (and, more importantly, the ridiculous maintenance fees that accompany them), the easiest way to do that is to remove the need for an automobile. Publix and the theater were an excellent start, but we need someone with the vision to take the next step. Buddy is a problem solver, and the solution to this one is the right person in the job of selling retailers on downtown.

[steve_o]

Downtown condo enters bankruptcy Developers of downtown condo project Star Tower, where units that sold for $750,000 three years ago and then went for less than $200,000 last year, filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy recently. Star Creations Development LLC, a division of Royal Palm Homes, developed the project that opened in 2007 — at the peak market. With floor-to-ceiling glass in the units and a rooftop pool, developer Steve Kodsi hoped the architectural elements of the project would help distinguish it on the market. Star Tower's two-bedroom units had 1,765 square feet. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-cfb-real-estate-star-091911-20110912,0,3800910.story Here's one answer as to why Tampa and Miami are rebounding while we aren't yet. With DPAC coming along and whatever the Magic chooses to do, as well as lots of chatter about more apartments (rather than condos), things are far from bleak. But I really believe Buddy has to focus on retail and start hiring retail experts for positions like DDB instead of political appointments. As someone noted over at Skyscraper City, there are way too many wig shops and tattoo parlors (I disagree with that, actually- the tattoo parlors are even closing) downtown, which is a function of too many bars. There is a gaping hole in the clock for folks downtown between the time they leave work and late-night partying which retail can fill if we bring in some experts. We've tried having the folks from "outside" ask nicely, but it appears that retail only occurs when spurred by members of the "fraternity." Interestingly, I read an article recently that even NYC is having trouble with retail on the bottom of towers. That certainly suggests it has to do with the economy, so let's start with the basics. We have a grocery store and a movie theater, let's go for a 24-hour drugstore and a hardware store. I still believe if people have to get in their car to find necessities (even if it's just a drive to SoDo or Colonialtown), it defeats the purpose of living in a tower downtown. C'mon Buddy, let's focus on the need!

You have to look at this a different way. This property did not fail because people didnt like it. It failed because it was constructed at the wrong time for the wrong amount of money. This, like the VUE will ultimately end up a success as soon as the condos can be released at reduced rates. This will fill up. There is plenty of demand out there.

If and when the various apartments get built, the downtown population will increase. Only then will we see retail follow. The city needs the foundation of people living down there to support the infill.

It will and is happening. Just give it time. We are lightyears ahead of where this city was a decade ago. In my opinion, the major set backs are behind us.

[spenser1058]

You have to look at this a different way. This property did not fail because people didnt like it. It failed because it was constructed at the wrong time for the wrong amount of money. This, like the VUE will ultimately end up a success as soon as the condos can be released at reduced rates. This will fill up. There is plenty of demand out there. If and when the various apartments get built, the downtown population will increase. Only then will we see retail follow. The city needs the foundation of people living down there to support the infill. It will and is happening. Just give it time. We are lightyears ahead of where this city was a decade ago. In my opinion, the major set backs are behind us.

I certainly agree about the workouts - all the major condo projects built prior to the current wave flopped and then became successful after the workouts (Park Lake Tower, 530 E Central, Reeves House, Renaissance). But that's the thing - retail is the one area that has gone backward, not forward. Regardless of which baseline you use - the 1960's (when we still had 4 department stores downtown), the early 80's (a blossoming of local retail such as Urban Guerilla and the continuation of long-timers like Behr's and Gibbs-Louis), the 90's (Church Street Market and the Exchange with Express, Victoria's Secret, B. Dalton, Sharper Image, Brookstone), there was progress.

While Publix and Cobb PCC (theater) are definitely steps in the right direction and worthy of applause, since then, retail has been sliding entirely backward. What's worse is no one at City Hall will even acknowledge it's a problem. Further, I know of many people who wonder why they should bother with downtown when other areas like College Park and even Audubon Park are making more progress. Retail needs to be first on the agenda and it's not; what is the way to move forward? Downtown has more people living here than it did in the 60's, 80's or 90's but we have less retail, so just assuming more residents gets you more retail is, I humbly suggest, not the answer.

I would also suggest that relying strictly on renters has its own issues. Rosemont (yes, Rosemont- hard to imagine now that it was originally considered an upscale development when first proposed) and MetroWest have both been plagued with problems as a result of going past the tipping point of ownership vs. rentals. I think we can avoid that problem downtown but we would not be the first area to deal with it if we think that having 4 roommates per unit to keep some of the towers afloat (and yes, I know personally of several instances where that's the case) is the answer to bringing folks downtown.

[alex]

Pricey Wekiva Parkway won't help much with I-4 jams, report says

"The revenue estimates show the parkway might not generate enough income to cover debt payments even 32 years after it opens."

"The authority is talking with the state about joining forces to build the 25-mile-long road. No agreement has been reached, but one could be announced by the end of the month. The goal is to open in two phases in 2017 and 2019."

"He said he wants the road built because it is key to the future economic vitality of the region. "It's important to look not at today, but 10 years or 20 years ahead. You have to be visionary. That's just the reality of it," Gardiner said."

[JFW657]

That garage is an eyesore and hardly worth saving. I'm sure there will not be less parking spaces when all is said and done. Like praha said above, hopefully it will extend the modern architecture and prove to be a great space to spend time. Have you seen the LA Live entertainment complex they are taking cues from? Sorry, but a prime location parking garage will not be missed.

I don't think it's bad looking.

I was wondering if they could build on top of it.

Seems a shame to waste such a solid, relatively new building AND all those valuable parking spaces.

[JFW657]

One of Buddy's campaign promises was to relocate OPD HQ to a site in Parramore. The building is about 40 years old and was constructed for both OPD and the long-gone city courts - it has been a white elephant for decades.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that.

I know they have the site picked out already right around the corner on Parramore, I think.

I'd like to see the new OPD complex up & running first so they could use the entire block.

[Jernigan]

Isn't OPDHQ in Parramore now?

[spenser1058]

Isn't OPDHQ in Parramore now?

"Parramore" is kind of a fluid concept, but the current OPD HQ would generally be considered only on the periphery of it. Although there is disagreement over this, it's generally assumed the line between the black and white communities during segregation was Division St. (now Avenue, after the change in roadway designations in the 70's), which is, of course, a couple of blocks west of OPD on Garland. That's only on the east side - the railroad tracks along Robinson St. served that purpose to the north. The "Parramore" designation nowadays pretty much includes everything west of I4, south of Colonial, east of OBT and north of Gore but that's recent. The area along Washington St., for example, was referred to as Callahan when I was a kid, and the area around the old arena was Concord Park.

I hope it goes without saying that we are all grateful those days are over, but I'm a firm believer in Burke's dictum that "(t)hose who don't know history are destined to repeat it."

[prahaboheme]

Orlando Magic look to other cities for ideas on fun complex

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/os-magic-arena-development-20110928,0,5737417.story

The irony of this story and plan is that Orlando already has the best entertainment complexes around -- CityWalk, Downtown Disney, Pointe Orlando (which took years to revamp) -- yet Orlando wants to look to other cities in order to create a destination just like these, meanwhile these same types of venues in similar cities like Charlotte are struggling.

I like the idea of an "entertainment complex" but not at the expense of already struggling districts like Church Street Station. I think the plan here should involve some contextual development rather than a "destination place" in order for this to benefit all of downtown. I would propose extending the Church Street Station main street district across I-4 to Division Ave and make any new development a part of a much larger plan for the area.

Edited September 29, 2011 by prahaboheme

[gibby]

The land under I-4 on Church Street is actually zoned for development I believe. That development would tie it all together nicely IMO. Also, I really think that Pine Street should be reopened west of Hughey, assuming that the police station get relocated as part of the entertainment complex deal. Basically, everything west of I-4 is developed as a double block and nearly everything on the east is not.