Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[alex]

I don't know if this has been brought up here before, but the lots that comprise Fashion Square Mall and the surrounding area are actually zoned for M-AC or "Metropolitan Activity Center," according to the Orlando Future Land Use Map (maps 3 and 9). In fact, that includes everything around the Executive Airport as well.

"Metropolitan AC" means it's not quite as dense as a "Downtown AC" (i.e. Orange Avenue's Central Business District), but denser than an "Urban AC" (i.e. what Creative Village is set to be). Unfortunately it's right by the Exec Airport, so we'll probably see a strict seven-story height limit. Still, that's a lot of density! It also connects directly to Baldwin Park, for a continuously well-designed area.

Imagine in 20-40 years having four major urban sections of Orlando: Midtown in the middle, Health Village to the north, Creative Village to the west, CBD (and maybe SoDo) to the south, and finally Fashion Square/Baldwin Park to the east. Expand Lymmo (or by then streetcars/lightrail), and that's quite a downtown!

Getting back to the point of retail, redeveloping Fashion Square mall into a mixed-use shopping destination (whether vertical or horizontal mixed-use) seems removed from Downtown for now. But in the grand scheme of things, in the next few years it could be another section of "downtown."

[spenser1058]

I don't know if this has been brought up here before, but the lots that comprise Fashion Square Mall and the surrounding area are actually zoned for M-AC or "Metropolitan Activity Center," according to the Orlando Future Land Use Map (maps 3 and 9). In fact, that includes everything around the Executive Airport as well.

"Metropolitan AC" means it's not quite as dense as a "Downtown AC" (i.e. Orange Avenue's Central Business District), but denser than an "Urban AC" (i.e. what Creative Village is set to be). Unfortunately it's right by the Exec Airport, so we'll probably see a strict seven-story height limit. Still, that's a lot of density! It also connects directly to Baldwin Park, for a continuously well-designed area.

Imagine in 20-40 years having four major urban sections of Orlando: Midtown in the middle, Health Village to the north, Creative Village to the west, CBD (and maybe SoDo) to the south, and finally Fashion Square/Baldwin Park to the east. Expand Lymmo (or by then streetcars/lightrail), and that's quite a downtown!

Getting back to the point of retail, redeveloping Fashion Square mall into a mixed-use shopping destination (whether vertical or horizontal mixed-use) seems removed from Downtown for now. But in the grand scheme of things, in the next few years it could be another section of "downtown."

You make an excellent point - the problem is will it ever be pedestrian-friendly or just 436-lite? Buckhead and Tyson's Corner come to mind as two "urban" areas with lots of tall buildings that are both disasters in terms of walkability. Sadly, areas that were developed without a grid seem to be doomed to a "sprawlish" nature no matter how dense they become. (I am aware, btw, that there is a move afoot to refit Tysons Corner by governments in NoVa but the last piece I read on it emphasized it would take all kinds of money and it may well not work even if they get the funding.) So, color me skeptical, but I do hope you're right and I'm wrong.

[jgardnerucf]

Love me some McLean and Tysons Corner. They finish the Orange Line cut through the mountain yet?

[Jernigan]

It would be great to see SR 50 go on a road diet from Bumby to Bennett. I think the city would have to take over the road for it to happen but you know what, if they are smart they would. Yes, they'll have to absorb the maintenance by taking it off of FDOT's books but the increased tax revenue from smart growth along 50 could be astounding.

[spenser1058]

A "road diet" would definitely help, but even 4 lanes is often an impediment to pedestrian use. For example, you'll see lots of people walking along Central Blvd. Almost no one walks along Robinson St. The same is true of Summerlin vs. Rosalind. In Winter Park, lots of pedestrians along Park Avenue but almost none along Orange/Fairbanks.

Mills Ave. has lots of interesting stores, restaurants, schools and people going and coming from the YMCA. But there's virtually nobody walking. Same with Colonial Dr. through Little Saigon. Next time you're on Orange Avenue, look at the difference in how many pedestrians on the segments south vs. north of Robinson St.

When they narrowed Edgewater Drive, I was fascinated to see the increase in numbers of people walking and cycling after the change.

I think people react to cues about where they "belong." One of the fascinating things about Plant St. in Winter Garden is that I always feel faintly ridiculous driving through. Between the people on the sidewalks and the people in the middle on bikes/skates, etc. on the West Orange Trail, plus all the 4-way stops and traffic signals, all you want to do is get out of your car.

On East Colonial around the malls, not only do you have the road to contend with, but also the endless seas of asphalt which simply scream to a pedestrian that (s)he doesn't belong here. Several years ago, Altamonte Springs decided it wanted to give more of an "urban" feel to the area around the mall. There was a lot of discussion about just how to do that and you can see some of the results today. Unfortunately, the will and the funding wasn't there to refit all the things you'd need to do and the result is that if you go through there today, no one much is walking or cycling. It was an interesting process and sometime I'll do a post on ideas to cut a grid through the mall's parking area, add lots of park space and use garages to replace the pavement vistas.

Love me some McLean and Tysons Corner. They finish the Orange Line cut through the mountain yet?

I'm not sure how far along they are up there. It would be interesting to know how they're doing.

[mrh3]

@Steve Slim chance that it would happen, but it would be genius to bury Colonial from Westmoreland to Bumby. The surface could be turned into an urban park.

@Spencer If there was something to walk to or from along Rosalind or Robinson more people would use those corridors. Both are kind of deaf zones. Imagine if Landmark Center interfaced better with the road. Those buildings are so out of context for a dense urban environment that They could just as easily be located in a suburban office park in anywhere USA. A mixed use redevelopment of those buildings would ignite foot traffic in that area.

[Jernigan]

It's worth noting that Robinson and Central on either side of Lake Eola are just about the exact same width from curb to curb.

The addition of interesting buildings and on street parking cause people to drive under the posted MPH on Central, and the wide lanes and setbacks cause people to often drive 40-45MPH on Robinson.

Would be great if parking was allowed on Robinson at least outside of rush hour.

[spenser1058]

@Steve Slim chance that it would happen, but it would be genius to bury Colonial from Westmoreland to Bumby. The surface could be turned into an urban park.

@Spencer If there was something to walk to or from along Rosalind or Robinson more people would use those corridors. Both are kind of deaf zones. Imagine if Landmark Center interfaced better with the road. Those buildings are so out of context for a dense urban environment that They could just as easily be located in a suburban office park in anywhere USA. A mixed use redevelopment of those buildings would ignite foot traffic in that area.

I definitely agree about Landmarks - they both scream Maitland Center and did not even bother to vary the buildings much from 1 to 2. But poor Robinson St. between Orange and Rosalind has much the same fate, despite the post office, St. James Cathedral, the Gym and a variety of storefronts in the strip of buildings anchored by Kinko's (so many have tried to make a go in there, but only Kinko's manages to survive.) It may be that it would improve if, as you note, there were more things to do for a longer stretch. Steve is also right about moves to slow the traffic down.

[FLheat]

This morning I did a 7.5 mile run around town to check out the status on some construction projects. Sky Towers have got all the underground pier work done, have poured the elevator shaft bases and have some of the first floor walls poured. They are working 6 days a week on the project. On to DPAC, I need to get a picture of the DPAC from the East side, the multistories of concrete in the rear really makes it look massive, I never paid attention to the side of the building before. The ALoft is still in limbo as they are waiting until 2013 to get some grant money that became available after they broke ground. Continuing toward the tracks, both the Church Street and Lynx station platforms have been poured with no new activity there. Next I headed NW and there is a new gas station going in on the corner of Colonial and Edgewater. I could not make out the brand, but the building shell is up as well as the pump canopies. Steel House is putting in the sidewalks and landscaping. The landscaping looks minimal, but the sidewalks are nice and wide with pavers. The SE corner glass is almost finished. I do like how they were able to hide most of the parking structure from view. I would think people should be moving in by January 1. Eight Ninety-nine is making great progress. They have several concrete slabs poured and they are moving along at a great pace. Nothing new around Lake Ivanhoe and that led me up to Mils/Princeton. The building next to OIC has been cleared and they look like they will start construction shortly for their new building next to the existing clinic. Mills Park is still pushing a lot of dirt and putting in underground utilities, no sign of any markings for buildings yet. Heading down Mills near Livingston the exterior of a two story brick Medical office building is nearing completion. This building is really ugly and completely out of place in my opinion. It looks like a brick barn and sits back from the street because of a concrete retention pond in front of it. From there I headed back home, but it is encouraging to see all the construction activity going on and I notice more and more construction workers in their florescent orange or yellow jackets walking to job sites each morning.

[spenser1058]

I don't know exactly when this happened, but the Comerica branch at the KEL building (wonder how much longer tha name will stick) is closed and they took their name off the Eola side of the building. They seem to have added additional art panels as well.

[FLheat]

Eight Ninety-nine is making great progress. They have several concrete slabs poured and they are moving along at a great pace. .

Oh, I guess it's called NORA Luxury Apartments now...I can't keep up.

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2012/11/27/gdc-properties-starts-work-on-downtown.html

[spenser1058]

Orange leaders agree to build new courtroom

http://www.orlandose...0,7162975.story

Well, the good news is that the county approved construction of new courtroom space within the current courthouse. The bad news is there's a move afoot to ship the Tax Collector and Property Appraiser offices out of downtown, because they're "not convenient." First of all, if you're worried about parking, there are tax collector branches all over OC with plenty of parking. There's very little reason for Joe Sixpack to visit the main office. Not to mention, most of the Property Appraiser's services can now be accessed online. While I agree Class A space in the SunTrust tower seemed to be a bit much (although I'd ask Jack if they got a sweetheart deal on it - I know the tower has lost a lot of tenants and the SunTrust back office operations over the years), I see no reason for these offices to leave downtown. This is the governmental hub of the region - let's not kill the chief economic engine of downtown.

Edited November 27, 2012 by spenser1058

[prahaboheme]

Decentralization of county services will set a very bad precedent. Look no further than Tampa.

[smileguy]

I know it won't happen under Mayor Jacobs' watch, but a shiny new county admin building, centralizing South Street, SunTrust and Magnolia Place offices would be mighty sexy. Maybe on the same block as the current one, or just south of Bank of America.

[Jernigan]

Pizzuti shifts from office to apartments for The Sevens

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/print-edition/2012/11/30/pizzuti-shifts-from-office-to.html

 

The Pizzuti Cos. wants to build an estimated $42.6 million, nine-story, 316-unit apartment building on North Orange Avenue in downtown Orlando as part of its The Sevens mixed-use project.

 

City Council will decide to approve on December 17

 

Some of the article is premium - not sure if anything important was left out...

[spenser1058]

Well, nine stories gets us some height, but Pizzuti has lots of undelivered promises downtown so I'm not holding my breath (he seems to have much better luck in Columbus - always wondered what was up with that). I know this is all market-driven, but I do wonder if we're going to regret this huge "apartment ghetto" (not in a sense of dilapidated but more a cluster of homogeneous use) later on. Multi-purpose seems to be all but dead, a vertical variation on the single-use of the 1960's suburbs. If Lymmo runs frequently enough from NoC (North of Colonial), we may avoid the problem, but with the barrier to pedestrians Colonial Drive represents I fear all these folks moving in will decide it's important to have a car to get to all the jobs on the other side or north at Florida Hospital. Apparently Pizzuti thinks so too, hence a 7-story garage. As we know from the Treadway/Frederick debates in the 80's, if there's a place to park the car you kill the growth of transit.

[Jernigan]

On the contrary -

 

Colonial won't be as bad with OC and Steel House both up to the street.  It won't be great but it won't be as bad.

 

Orlando Urban Trail adds a viable commute option into town and up to Florida Hospital

 

LYMMO, as you mentioned, will be running at 10 minute peak, 15 minute off peak frequencies.  That's pretty good.  The downside is for the system to expand north and south it will likely not be free any longer.  But that could have a good affect if people who will use it daily start buying LYNX passes, they might find themselves taking a bus to other places like Winter Park or east Orlando or the airport.

[jack]

Not quite a single purpose district. Prior to the apartments built ten years ago, it was all office up there. Now, it is more of a 50-50 mix. Add in Lymmo, the hotel by Ustler, it is more of a mixed district. 

[FLClarkKent]

On the contrary -

 

Colonial won't be as bad with OC and Steel House both up to the street.  It won't be great but it won't be as bad.

 

Orlando Urban Trail adds a viable commute option into town and up to Florida Hospital

 

LYMMO, as you mentioned, will be running at 10 minute peak, 15 minute off peak frequencies.  That's pretty good.  The downside is for the system to expand north and south it will likely not be free any longer.  But that could have a good affect if people who will use it daily start buying LYNX passes, they might find themselves taking a bus to other places like Winter Park or east Orlando or the airport.

Doesn't the Urban Trail master plan call for construction of a pedestrian bridge over Colonial?

[gibby]

I'd love to see two-way traffic north of 50.

[prahaboheme]

Downtownorlando.com has updated their Q3 development profile:  http://www.downtownorlando.com/site/uploads/2012/11/Development_Profile_3Q12_Website.pdf

 

A newer rendering of RIDA (terrible) and 30 S Orange.

[sunshine]

why star tower, 101 eola...still on there?

[FLClarkKent]

Downtownorlando.com has updated their Q3 development profile:  http://www.downtownorlando.com/site/uploads/2012/11/Development_Profile_3Q12_Website.pdf

 

A newer rendering of RIDA (terrible) and 30 S Orange.

It's a very impression-istic rendering. Makes me wonder if they don't have firm plans for what they want to do. I believe this lot is cursed!

[Pete C]

OMG that is the worst rendering I have ever seen! 

[mrh3]

@Steve Good point about the previous office uses. Retail will be sure to follow once the residential density increases. Personally, Ivanhoe has always been my favorite part of downtown and I think that this is a great step toward strengthening the core. Also, at some point the city will have to create a unified streetscape Uptown.

Edited November 30, 2012 by mrh3