Downtown Orlando Project Discussion

[FLClarkKent]

Ugh, Greenwood is already the de facto dog park. Can't believe the city allows this. So many dogs off leash. It's crazy.

[Bungalower-MattBroffman]

Greenwood is an on-leash dog park. As of a month ago there weren't any plans to change that. 

[FLClarkKent]

Could have fooled me. Run through there often. Rarely do I see a dog on a leash.

[prahaboheme]

As much as I love the idea of a W Hotel in downtown Orlando, I was never keen on that Lake Eola location.  As it already stands, Lake Eola needs some breathing room.  High-rises literally within the park will not help matters.  The Tradition Towers location would be a nice alternative.

[sunshine]

OK...things are slow again in downtown now that Skyhouse is completed and Aloft is about to open. Time for some developers to step up and build another buildings and bring in retails...

[truebluecfl]

Agreed, there are several projects I'd love too see get started.

 

On a side note, has the idea ever been floated to renovate and restore the Angelbilt back into a hotel? Tampa just renovated the Floridan and supposibly they have been doing great, they just recently started restoring the old courthouse and are currently turning that into a hotel as well...and its Tampa. You would think that the Angelbilt would be a no brainer with the way downtown Orlando is going and the location it is in. Plus the building seems to be in very good shape.

 

http://www.whatwasthere.com/browse.aspx#!/ll/28.54304,-81.379074/id/45431/info/details/zoom/14/

[jack]

If it was vacant, sure. But it would be costly to purchase and renovate. 

[truebluecfl]

Finnhenry's and Subway would be fine and wouldn't effect a hotel, Qwest occupies some of the building and the Omlab? but I don't know how much space exactly. Other than that I don't know of any other occupancies. But now that I really think about it, where would you even have parking and also pull up for valet and check in? Its not like the old days where you could pull up on Orange and leave your car out front while you check out a room...

[sunshine]

I caught part of Buddy Dyer speech. He said there are 15 projects going on. What are those?

 

Unrelated : Amway Center supposed to attract business and new developments and yet I see non of those happening...restaurants continue to close down....what gives? Parrmore still terrible....

[Bungalower-MattBroffman]

I caught part of Buddy Dyer speech. He said there are 15 projects going on. What are those?

 

Unrelated : Amway Center supposed to attract business and new developments and yet I see non of those happening...restaurants continue to close down....what gives? Parrmore still terrible....

Post tomorrow on Bungalower that outlines the project list...working on it right now.

[aent]

I caught part of Buddy Dyer speech. He said there are 15 projects going on. What are those?

 

Unrelated : Amway Center supposed to attract business and new developments and yet I see non of those happening...restaurants continue to close down....what gives? Parrmore still terrible....

 

Restaurants will always close down... tenants will have unfeasible concepts that can't compete in the market and landlords will try to maximize the rent and charge as much as they can, making it more difficult for those concepts to compete. I think a major goal of the Amway Center was to get people to be willing to cross under I-4 on foot... not necessarily to get development west of it. It looks like the entertainment complex is happening, as well as the soccer stadium. Once those get done, I think we'll see some more projects proposed west of I4 in that area as the mindset that people won't continue west will be diminished.

[spenser1058]

The Citrus Bowl and Tinker Field have existed since the 30's; the Orlando Arena lasted for not quite 25; we're up to 5 for the Am. Let's review exactly what surrounds or surrounded any or all of those venues. Whatever the merits of the soccer stadium may be, let's simply accept the fact that it has nothing to do with "rescuing" Parramore or even redeveloping Parramore. This is all about making some speculators (I welcome Jack's term here) more wealthy and giving the appearance of activity west of I4. Hopefully, it will be good for soccer supporters and will generate $$$$ for the endless number of bars that are the raison d'etre for downtown's existence these days. 

 

One question to ask when thinking about any of these venues: would you want to live beside it? Another question: if the soccer folks were butting up stumps to put the stadium in Orlando Festival Park or the rugby fields out by the fairgrounds (both owned by the city), do you think Buddy would be moving heaven and earth and spending highly inflated prices with city dollars to build it?

Edited October 11, 2013 by spenser1058

[Jernigan]

It's not fair at all to use Amway Arena as a "sports venue" to judge other venues. No more than comparing Fashion Square to Thorton Park.

Amway did nothing for economic development BY DESIGN. Generous parking around all sides meant people were able to go "door to door." New Amway has ushered in pregame and post game parties around town and more importantly pedestrian and LYMMO crowds to start spontaneous LETS GO MAGIC cheers. Apply that to the rediculous fanboy crowd that soccer attracts - in an integrated, street front, remote parking situation, and we will all be cheering.

Crowds will only migrate east, and at first they will be walking double-step. But just as the "western frontier" has stretched from I-4 to Division the last 2 years, it will push to Parramore in 2 more. How much that expands north and south of Church is up to the land owners in Parramore - and no body else

[Bungalower-MattBroffman]

Here's an overview of the projects Dyer was talking about.

[spenser1058]

It's not fair at all to use Amway Arena as a "sports venue" to judge other venues. No more than comparing Fashion Square to Thorton Park.

Amway did nothing for economic development BY DESIGN. Generous parking around all sides meant people were able to go "door to door." New Amway has ushered in pregame and post game parties around town and more importantly pedestrian and LYMMO crowds to start spontaneous LETS GO MAGIC cheers. Apply that to the rediculous fanboy crowd that soccer attracts - in an integrated, street front, remote parking situation, and we will all be cheering.

Crowds will only migrate east, and at first they will be walking double-step. But just as the "western frontier" has stretched from I-4 to Division the last 2 years, it will push to Parramore in 2 more. How much that expands north and south of Church is up to the land owners in Parramore - and no body else

 

I completely agree that the the new Amway Arena, by eliminating the sea of parking and pushing it closer to the existing pedestrian core was definitely an improvement. Theory suggests in the long run it should add to, rather than detract from the nature of downtown.

 

However, like those other venues, it still hasn't happened and I'm asking my self why? That also ties into my other posts about what's happening with retail in the area, not only downtown, but also out towards Fashion Square.

 

It gets a bit meta, but if the idea, as some of us envisioned when downtown redevelopment began, was an integrated whole, where people can live work and play without need for a car, there has been an epic stall. How do we fix that? Can it be fixed?

 

First, and hopefully this will now be addressed, is a lack of strategy. Second, we don't have anyone making that strategy currently who can competently address the part most glaring in its absence: the retail portion.  Finally, as cloudship used to note in these pages, we are seeing in Buddy the Moses vs. Jacobs battle between "big project" growth and "organic" growth. Our successes, whether they be College Park, Thornton Park or Audubon Park, seem to fall more toward the latter. When we began, I tended to be agnostic - whatever worked, worked. I increasingly feel, however, that we may be reaching the limits of what "big project" growth can do for us. Going forward, is the right hand on the tiller to progress, given that Buddy, from Day One, has been about one big project after another. Block by block growth organically was never tried to bring Parramore around, the very things that brought back our Main Street neighborhoods (I know it's hard to believe now, but there was a time when everyone supposed Eola Heights, Thornton Park, even College Park might be headed for a parramore-like future.)

 

I guess my point in all of this is to ask, do we need a mid-course correction?

[sunshine]

Thanks Matt for making the list. I was expecting something shiny, new and exciting..lol...it is not much to brag about a homeless shelter, a trail and bus route expansion.

[jack]

This is just my opinion

 

1. Facilities (sports, arts, etc.) generally do not have the impact that is advertised but it all depends on multiple factors. Amway is nice, but the Magic were already here in Orlando. Soccer is slightly different but you will not revitalize an area with events 100 nights a year. It does not hurt, but it is not the only factor. 
2. Amway's biggest impact is probably the future soccer stadium and getting people used to crossing I-4.
3. Buddy is definitely a big picture guy. I appreciate that but the small details need to be worked out by the residents. It is the only way it will work.
4. I also believe that we need more residents. More residents will create a voting bloc that demand change. 
5. Retail that develops to serve the local residents will begin to attract outsiders as well
6. I will say that when I do go out to eat, it is not downtown. I wish Cask and Larder was in downtown. I hate driving to Winter Park. 

[Pete C]

Matt reported it before, but I think the new apartment building in Thornton Park is a pretty big deal. Nobody really even seemed excited about it and that surprised me. That eyesore of land will finally have something nice that will increase downtown population. There is still a great deal of demand for rentals downtown.

[truebluecfl]

I agree that we haven't seen major change in the area surrounding new Amway, but from what it looked like before it was there I think we can all agree there's been progress. The thing with most stadiums is you build on cheap land on the "not so good" side of town. That is why you usually don't see the positive development around stadiums. This kind of approach seems to be changing though, especially with MLS stadiums. Although the proposed location for us is not the best in everyone's opinion, we are not going to have a stadium on Orange ave, Eola or in Thorton Park but the next best thing is Church street, and I do believe you will see progress in Parramore with more activity and incentive to go west of I-4. Plus, if our city core is going to expand and if we ever start getting some major businesses to build some 500ft towers those empty lots and warehouses scattering the west side look like a good place to start and far enough from the airport were it could maybe happen in the future.

[sunshine]

"Organic growth" is for small city. or we would not have cities like Dubai, Miami, Hong Kong..........if we are just sit and wait...we will always playiny the catch up game as a second to third tier city...

 

We already throw hundred of millions for billionaires to build their playground...what is more to throw another 40 to 50 mils to Simon to build a shopping center down here...

 

West Plam Beach city place is also build on ghetto...

[prahaboheme]

Matt reported it before, but I think the new apartment building in Thornton Park is a pretty big deal. Nobody really even seemed excited about it and that surprised me. That eyesore of land will finally have something nice that will increase downtown population. There is still a great deal of demand for rentals downtown.

 

You are right - this is a pretty big deal.  I think there has been a general decline in enthuisiam about new proposals lately.  This will be great filler for the South Eola neighbhorhood and will have a huge impact on the residential use of area businesses like Publix.  The Thornton Park Publix is already near capacity on many occasions -- this level of influx may encourage Publix to seek out new downtown locations for another shop.  Or better yet, Whole Foods may get into the mix.  Or maybe, just maybe, CVS will see this as an opportunity to finally open up a pharmacy.

[sunshine]

It is a big deal in term of bringing people,  but on design wise and usage wise. It is underwhelming. It is one of those typical Orlando condo low rise that creativity is not required.

 

If the design is let say a 20 stories tall building, using less footprint with greenspace in front and a retail portion with a CVS design into it. Then we can celebrate. 

 

It will only have 3000 sqft of retails space. If they spilt it up, it will be too small to put in anything meaningful. 3000 sqft is not even enough to put in a Buffalo Wild Wings or Friday.

[jack]

This is a cool project and I am glad it is moving forward.If they built 20 stories, it probably would be too expensive to build. Remember Skyhouse is taking a manufacturing approach to their buildings. Build the same thing in every city. 

 

The retail will struggle since they are isolated.  That area needs Eola Place to get started.  

[Pete C]

It's not terribly exciting, but I think it's a sharp looking building. It looks more interesting than NORA or Central Station.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Pete C

[prahaboheme]

Not every building needs or should have retail.  This is a residential building in a residential section of South Eola.