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SouthPark Mall


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18 minutes ago, kickazzz2000 said:

It's now called BUCKHEAD ATLANTA, which is quite creative.

Ha no they are re-naming it. Again. It will soon be called Buckhead Village (again). And it is not doing well. In fact the newest owner (owners of Ponce City Market) wants to get lower end tenants in place because no one is coming to hang out and they recognize they need people to linger there longer. So looking to this place as a model for higher end shops may not be a good example of what to aspire to. https://www.reporternewspapers.net/2020/02/06/struggling-shops-likely-to-be-renamed-buckhead-village-add-community-friendly-business-new-owner-says/

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12 minutes ago, sakami said:

Ha no they are re-naming it. Again. It will soon be called Buckhead Village (again). And it is not doing well. In fact the newest owner (owners of Ponce City Market) wants to get lower end tenants in place because no one is coming to hang out and they recognize they need people to linger there longer. So looking to this place as a model for higher end shops may not be a good example of what to aspire to. https://www.reporternewspapers.net/2020/02/06/struggling-shops-likely-to-be-renamed-buckhead-village-add-community-friendly-business-new-owner-says/

Christmas shopping is also the most important time of the year for a mall and Southerners don't bundle up to go shopping in 35 degree weather like people in New York City. If given the choice in December to go Christmas shopping indoors when the temps are 35 degrees or wander around outside, my guess is most people in Charlotte would pick the indoor mall. 

Edited by CLT2014
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Redevelopment of malls only really occur (and are needed) for struggling malls, which SouthPark is not. The value of the mall will not change if it is no longer enclosed or if there are no longer parking lots, therefore that type of investment is not going to happen. There is nothing wrong with the mall as is. This is one of those if it’s not broke, don’t fix it scenarios. 

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Sadly I think what you are seeing is a consolidation of luxury retail, and a fragmenting of levels of luxury. Luxury retail and hospitality don't just plop down in a city because we want it. And it's clear that the massive luxury expansion in the 90-00s, and subsequent dilution of the term "luxury," has taken a toll on costs and revenue, with a lot of retailers closing up shop in cities as successful as Atlanta. I mean, Lenox and Phipps are probably two of the top malls in the country in the luxury segment, and they can't even keep retailers going for long. And people are expecting Chanel and Prada to open here? We are lucky to have what we have, in fact I would say we are punching above our weight. Back in 2008, there was Hermes, Juicy, and Ralph Lauren, which all lasted a couple of years before closing, and even then, we are left with LV, Tiffany, Burberry, and a few others that are regulars at "luxury malls" in the country. 

Seriously, look at malls that call themselves luxury, and you'll find the same list of retailers (LV, Kate Spade, Coach, Tory Burch, Tommy Bahama, maybe a Gucci, Tumi, Tiffany, Michael Kors). Very few malls have the upper echelon of luxury (Prada, Chanel, Hermes, etc.), and even those are losing their once luxury-fortress-like statuses. 

If Simon can keep SouthPark at its current level, and continue to find tenants, the mall is successful. And you're not going to see the mall redeveloped anytime soon. Not even a second floor. Not in this economy or future economies. The way things are transpiring, we have peaked globally and just hope to stay afloat. 

Edited by Rufus
grammar
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1 hour ago, Rufus said:

Sadly I think what you are seeing is a consolidation of luxury retail, and a fragmenting of levels of luxury. Luxury retail and hospitality don't just plop down in a city because we want it. And it's clear that the massive luxury expansion in the 90-00s, and subsequent dilution of the term "luxury," has taken a toll on costs and revenue, with a lot of retailers closing up shop in cities as successful as Atlanta. I mean, Lenox and Phipps are probably two of the top malls in the country in the luxury segment, and they can't even keep retailers going for long. And people are expecting Chanel and Prada to open here? We are lucky to have what we have, in fact I would say we are punching above our weight. Back in 2008, there was Hermes, Juicy, and Ralph Lauren, which all lasted a couple of years before closing, and even then, we are left with LV, Tiffany, Burberry, and a few others that are regulars at "luxury malls" in the country. 

Seriously, look at malls that call themselves luxury, and you'll find the same list of retailers (LV, Kate Spade, Coach, Tory Burch, Tommy Bahama, maybe a Gucci, Tumi, Tiffany, Michael Kors). Very few malls have the upper echelon of luxury (Prada, Chanel, Hermes, etc.), and even those are losing their once luxury-fortress-like statuses. 

If Simon can keep SouthPark at its current level, and continue to find tenants, the mall is successful. And you're not going to see the mall redeveloped anytime soon. Not even a second floor. Not in this economy or future economies. The way things are transpiring, we have peaked globally and just hope to stay afloat. 

So what you are saying is the dark ages are coming? Life will not get better? The US empire is at an end much like the fall of Rome? 
 

I need to go move out to the country...

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3 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

So what you are saying is the dark ages are coming? Life will not get better? The US empire is at an end much like the fall of Rome? 
 

I need to go move out to the country...

Hahaha...sorry to make it sound dark and dreary, but retail today is certainly on a downward turn. It's not all doom and gloom, but expectations need to be laid in reality. 

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4 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Hahaha...sorry to make it sound dark and dreary, but retail today is certainly on a downward turn. It's not all doom and gloom, but expectations need to be laid in reality. 

Being well traveled I’ve noticed that the U.S. is far more internet oriented than other countries (or at least that’s what I’ve noticed).  We need more boutique style stores and less stores like Dillard’s, Sears, JCPenney, Staples, and Bed Bath & Beyond etc.  Those stores you can get basically the same stuff online or anywhere else.  Overstaturation big time IMO.  

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19 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Hahaha...sorry to make it sound dark and dreary, but retail today is certainly on a downward turn. It's not all doom and gloom, but expectations need to be laid in reality. 

I get what you are saying now. I was looking at it in a context of the US as a whole, not retail. Sorry. 

 

That said, I was just down in Miami, in the design district, and Luxury retail seemed booming. I know it is a microcosm, and also an area catering to European wealth, but still, booming.  

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14 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

I get what you are saying now. I was looking at it in a context of the US as a whole, not retail. Sorry. 

 

That said, I was just down in Miami, in the design district, and Luxury retail seemed booming. I know it is a microcosm, and also an area catering to European wealth, but still, booming.  

I agree.  There are A LOT of ABSURDLY rich people in South Florida (from Naples on the Gulf Coast to Miami-Palm Beach on the east coast).   The level of wealth in S. Fla. is out of control.  It's understandable though.  If I were super rich, I'd love to live there.  

As far as shopping goes, between year round tropical weather and super rich clientele, outdoor malls like the one below in Coral Gables are bound to thrive.

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cgables.jpg

Edited by SydneyCarton
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15 hours ago, Temeteron said:

We need more boutique style stores and less stores like Dillard’s, Sears, JCPenney, Staples, and Bed Bath & Beyond etc.  Those stores you can get basically the same stuff online or anywhere else.  Overstaturation big time IMO.  

I do have to ask why these stores were mentioned...since these stores provide retail for a lot of middle-income and below, which is a much larger swath of people than luxury. There's a reason they are more prominent in terms of branches...because more people can afford them. Now, did they oversaturate markets, and now are paying the price? Sure, absolutely. 

And the reason downtown Miami is seeing retail resurgence is because it has tons of foreign investment being poured into it, and that in turn is producing this. But at the expense of other malls in the city. Look at the Falls, Dolphin Mall, Aventura, etc. You will see these malls are struggling because retail keeps shifting to where the investment is, rather than coexisting. You're not going to see this level of foreign investment in Charlotte anytime soon, and that's ok. But let's not compare Miami, which is the 3rd largest international gateway in the country, with Charlotte that is less than half the size and importance. I'd rather we look to Denver, Austin, Nashville, San Diego as our peers, especially in retail. 

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13 hours ago, Rufus said:

And the reason downtown Miami is seeing retail resurgence is because it has tons of foreign investment being poured into it, and that in turn is producing this. But at the expense of other malls in the city. Look at the Falls, Dolphin Mall, Aventura, etc. You will see these malls are struggling because retail keeps shifting to where the investment is, rather than coexisting. You're not going to see this level of foreign investment in Charlotte anytime soon, and that's ok. But let's not compare Miami, which is the 3rd largest international gateway in the country, with Charlotte that is less than half the size and importance. I'd rather we look to Denver, Austin, Nashville, San Diego as our peers, especially in retail. 

None of those malls are struggling. None of their stores are closing to relocate to downtown Miami either. Miami is large enough to support multiple locations for those brands. I also wouldn’t class any of those cities as peers to Charlotte. Charlotte’s peers are Orlando, San Antonio, Sacramento, Portland, etc. 

On another note, the relocated St John is now under construction. Hopefully Gucci will open before the holiday season. 

33DEE6EF-6D11-4795-99A5-08606DB87EE7.jpeg

Edited by TheOneRJ
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8 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

None of those malls are struggling. None of their stores are closing to relocate to downtown Miami either. Miami is large enough to support multiple locations for those brands. I also wouldn’t class any of those cities as peers to Charlotte. Charlotte’s peers are Orlando, San Antonio, Sacramento, Portland, etc. 

On another note, the relocated St John is now under construction. Hopefully Gucci will open before the holiday season. 

33DEE6EF-6D11-4795-99A5-08606DB87EE7.jpeg

That St John facade has been there for over 3 weeks now.  Also, why do you feel that the other cities are not Charlotte’s peers and the ones you’ve mentioned are? Just curious

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I feel like the Colony redevelopment has a chance to support some luxury brands, however there is limited retail involved with that development. In the future SouthPark and Charlotte in general will undoubtedly have more luxury retailers, we're the second largest banking capitol. Bankers, executives, and professionals can and will be able to support at least one location for some luxury brands. I'm in no way saying we're going to have Rodeo Drive in Charlotte, but I certainly hope more luxury retailers will realize their potential in Charlotte. This is unrelated, But I also hope to see some more mainstream brands open stores in South End. If I had to pick a few stores randomly, It'd be an Urban Outfitters, Zara, Nike, American Eagle, etc. 

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It's still a mystery to me how Albany, NY has a two-story Zara (each floor plate is roughly the size of the H&M in SouthPark) in Crossgates mall - since 2017 - and they still have no presence here.  Come to think of it, that mall had an H&M as far back as the late 90's/early 2000s.  And trust me, there's NOTHING about Albany that is fashion forward in the slightest.  What gives?

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22 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

It's still a mystery to me how Albany, NY has a two-story Zara (each floor plate is roughly the size of the H&M in SouthPark) in Crossgates mall - since 2017 - and they still have no presence here.  Come to think of it, that mall had an H&M as far back as the late 90's/early 2000s.  And trust me, there's NOTHING about Albany that is fashion forward in the slightest.  What gives?

Sometimes it’s about proximity to other cities (Albany is close to the megalopolis of NYC, DC and Philly ).  Also proximity to distribution centers and airports etc.  companies tend to expand geographically.  Not all, but a lot.  Also real estate plays a role too. Some companies want to wait until they have to right spot and the right square feet.  This is why SouthPark was last at getting H&M.  Northlake and Carolina Place had H&Ms before SP due to having to wait for store leases to finish and shuffle around other stores.  My guess is a lot of future store openings in the category of “fast fashion” (Zara, Forever 21, etc)  might choose South End/Uptown over SP.  The luxury brands will continue to be at SP IMO.  

Edited by Temeteron
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14 minutes ago, Temeteron said:

Sometimes it’s about proximity to other cities (Albany is close to the megalopolis of NYC, DC and Philly ).  Also proximity to distribution centers and airports etc.  companies tend to expand geographically.  Not all, but a lot.  Also real estate plays a role too. Some companies want to wait until they have to right spot and the right square feet.  This is why SouthPark was last at getting H&M.  Northlake and Carolina Place had H&Ms before SP due to having to wait for store leases to finish and shuffle around other stores.  My guess is a lot of future store openings in the category of “fast fashion” (Zara, Forever 21, etc)  might choose South End/Uptown over SP.  The luxury brands will continue to be at SP IMO.  

I get that they may end up in SouthEnd, but Albany is a 3hr drive from NYC on the short end and a 6hr drive to DC on the extreme end.  Atlanta has two Zaras and we're 3:45 from here to both of those stores.  When you look at their US store location map there's a three state gap in their footprint in one of the fastest growing regions in the country.  That giant hole in the market just seems enormously odd to me.  I could see if we were talking about a Chanel or something of that ilk, but Zara?

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22 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

I get that they may end up in SouthEnd, but Albany is a 3hr drive from NYC on the short end and a 6hr drive to DC on the extreme end.  Atlanta has two Zaras and we're 3:45 from here to both of those stores.  When you look at their US store location map there's a three state gap in their footprint in one of the fastest growing regions in the country.  That giant hole in the market just seems enormously odd to me.  I could see if we were talking about a Chanel or something of that ilk, but Zara?

It will be here sooner or later.  And when it does come just like everything else, it will be half the size of European locations, and half the selection. SMH lol

Edited by Temeteron
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5 hours ago, Temeteron said:

That St John facade has been there for over 3 weeks now.  Also, why do you feel that the other cities are not Charlotte’s peers and the ones you’ve mentioned are? Just curious

Because all of those cities are more comparable in population to Charlotte. Austin has barely surpassed 2 million, Nashville has yet to do so. Denver is fast approaching 3 million while San Diego has already done so. 

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2 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

Because all of those cities are more comparable in population to Charlotte. Austin has barely surpassed 2 million, Nashville has yet to do so. Denver is fast approaching 3 million while San Diego has already done so. 

You have a point however they aren’t that much of a difference.  A significant difference would be the populations of NY, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, etc.  

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10 minutes ago, Temeteron said:

You have a point however they aren’t that much of a difference.  A significant difference would be the populations of NY, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, etc.  

They might not be significantly different but that doesn’t make them peers. 

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19 hours ago, turbocraig said:

It's still a mystery to me how Albany, NY has a two-story Zara (each floor plate is roughly the size of the H&M in SouthPark) in Crossgates mall - since 2017 - and they still have no presence here.  Come to think of it, that mall had an H&M as far back as the late 90's/early 2000s.  And trust me, there's NOTHING about Albany that is fashion forward in the slightest.  What gives?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_District,_New_York

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11 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

It’s got lots of pretty old buildings and the Upstate/Adirondack area in general is gorgeous in the summer and early fall, but a cradle of fashion it is not.  I’m not saying CLT is either, but I would have bet my bottom dollar CLT would have had H&M, Zara, or [insert brand here] before ALB.  That the opposite is true has always mystified me.  I’m from that area and visit family there each year still.   I would’ve lost that dollar.  

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2 hours ago, turbocraig said:

It’s got lots of pretty old buildings and the Upstate/Adirondack area in general is gorgeous in the summer and early fall, but a cradle of fashion it is not.  I’m not saying CLT is either, but I would have bet my bottom dollar CLT would have had H&M, Zara, or [insert brand here] before ALB.  That the opposite is true has always mystified me.  I’m from that area and visit family there each year still.   I would’ve lost that dollar.  

The architecture in Albany is gorgeous.   The architecture is vastly superior to Raleigh or Columbia.

That being said, Charlotte is far more prosperous than A, and its retail is significantly better.

Edited by SydneyCarton
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3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

The architecture in Albany is gorgeous.   The architecture is vastly superior to Raleigh or Columbia.

That being said, Charlotte is far more prosperous than A, and its retail is significantly better.

The only thing I know about Albany is that dystopian capitol complex... which is unfortunate

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