SouthPark Mall

[TheOneRJ]

SouthPark says that all but one space is filled within the mall and that they have tenants waiting for more space to become available.

https://www.wcnc.com/amp/article/money/southpark-mall-thriving-money-charlotte-nc/275-2108028e-a890-448c-a38f-418f3ade5c8b

[DH17]

On 6/27/2022 at 7:53 PM, TheOneRJ said:

SouthPark says that all but one space is filled within the mall and that they have tenants waiting for more space to become available.

https://www.wcnc.com/amp/article/money/southpark-mall-thriving-money-charlotte-nc/275-2108028e-a890-448c-a38f-418f3ade5c8b

I think this really highlights that there is definitely still a space for "premium" malls with high-end stores and top amenities.

I frequently hear from folks that they are "going to South Park today" and will window-shop or buy a luxury item.  On the other hand they'll just order online or go to the Outlet mall if shopping for lower-end/every-day clothing.

[nakers2]

3 hours ago, DH17 said:

I think this really highlights that there is definitely still a space for "premium" malls with high-end stores and top amenities.

I frequently hear from folks that they are "going to South Park today" and will window-shop or buy a luxury item.  On the other hand they'll just order online or go to the Outlet mall if shopping for lower-end/every-day clothing.

I've said this for a while. When people began talking about how the Pandemic would finally kill Southpark, I retorted with this exact statement. I'm curious if this might spur a high end retail surge at other area malls? Perhaps making for other destination spots? I find it more likely they'd find space nearby the mall, like in Buckhead, Atlanta.

[TheOneRJ]

4 hours ago, nakers2 said:

I've said this for a while. When people began talking about how the Pandemic would finally kill Southpark, I retorted with this exact statement. I'm curious if this might spur a high end retail surge at other area malls? Perhaps making for other destination spots? I find it more likely they'd find space nearby the mall, like in Buckhead, Atlanta.

I think that is what the developers/management of Phillips Place is doing.

Edited July 2, 2022 by TheOneRJ

[nakers2]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:13 PM, TheOneRJ said:

I think that is what the developers/management of Phillips Place is doing.

I hope so, and I'm saying this as someone with modest income. I enjoy the atmosphere of the Southpark area. I know a lot of urbanists hate Southpark and places like it, but personally it give an heir of class. Not to mention that when I DO want to spend some money, I've got a central location to go to. As much as I'd love to see high end retail Uptown, I need to be realistic. It will take some time before St Laurent or Louis V will open a store up there, especially at or near the Epicenter. 

[kayman]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:27 PM, nakers2 said:

I've said this for a while. When people began talking about how the Pandemic would finally kill Southpark, I retorted with this exact statement. I'm curious if this might spur a high end retail surge at other area malls? Perhaps making for other destination spots? I find it more likely they'd find space nearby the mall, like in Buckhead, Atlanta.

I just need Simon Properties to add a full second level to SouthPark itself. A full second level to the mall itself would accommodate the variety of more upscale boutiques & destination retail to come, allows more land redevelopment on the existing mall property while maintaining present-level of gross leasable square footage in a smaller footprint, and encourage more mixed use & vertical density on the site. 

[KJHburg]

while Southpark is prosperous not all malls are of course.  This is a video inside the closed Parkwood Mall in Wilson.  Many small town malls are struggling but not all.  Many carve up the old interior shop space into big box junior anchor spaces like Cleveland Mall in Shelby. 

But this is really interesting.   This mall needs to just be torn down and replaced with residential, maybe some retail.  Belks moved to an open air shopping center nearby in Wilson but the other 2 old anchors are gone from the market (of course Sears is gone for good) 

 

[LKN704]

11 hours ago, kayman said:

I just need Simon Properties to add a full second level to SouthPark itself. A full second level to the mall itself would accommodate the variety of more upscale boutiques & destination retail to come, allows more land redevelopment on the existing mall property while maintaining present-level of gross leasable square footage in a smaller footprint, and encourage more mixed use & vertical density on the site. 

IIRC Simon looked into adding a second level, but I believe they deemed it to be impossible from a structural standpoint. The existing mall and columns (remember that the mall is essentially built over parking) wouldn't be able to support the additional load. 

[KJHburg]

^^ they would not do a 2nd level in this retail environment.   anyway due to excessive heat I did a mall walk first visit to the mall in a while.   Every storefront is open or leased.  The new area with Suffolk Punch will be good for the mall.  (leaves the real shoppers to do their thing and others to wait on them)  Yes the Psycho Bunny is open! No time to shop just walking. 

This mall is still our only Class AAA mall and is the market dominate mall for sure. 

 

[TheOneRJ]

Finding creative ways to add more square footage to the mall isn’t unrealistic. Simon is currently doing exactly that at Phipps Plaza in Atlanta.

[nakers2]

I think it is far more realistic for Southpark to expand outward. And if one of the large department stores closes in the coming years (my money is on Macy's) utilize that space for small retail. The mall has tons of surface parking, and if they got creative, could even eliminate or build on/replace one or more of the parking structures with retail on parking. 

[go_vertical]

I think a mid (or high) rise hotel with conference/meeting space on the corner of Sharon and Fairview where the Circle K currently sits with a new mall wing extention towards either Nordstrom or Belk seemlessly connecting everything would be interesting. 

[Temeteron]

1 hour ago, go_vertical said:

I think a mid (or high) rise hotel with conference/meeting space on the corner of Sharon and Fairview where the Circle K currently sits with a new mall wing extention towards either Nordstrom or Belk seemlessly connecting everything would be interesting. 

We need more millennial driven stores.  If they don’t bring more the younger population will shop in South End.  Not everyone who shops at South Park is rich and old.  They need to bring Zara, Diesel, Gstar, etc.  

[kayman]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:52 PM, TheOneRJ said:

Finding creative ways to add more square footage to the mall isn’t unrealistic. Simon is currently doing exactly that at Phipps Plaza in Atlanta.

Yeah that's what I was inferring to as to the vertical expansion as Phipps Plaza is doing just that. Another thing, Simon can do a second level expansion partially rather than all at once. They could rebuild portions of the mall as 2 level portions as the opportunities become available. This is how they can achieve this will maximizing development density within the existing developed areas surrounded by Sharon Road, Fairview Road, Carnegie Boulevard, and Barclay Downs Drive. 

[TheOneRJ]

On 7/13/2022 at 1:09 AM, nakers2 said:

I think it is far more realistic for Southpark to expand outward. And if one of the large department stores closes in the coming years (my money is on Macy's) utilize that space for small retail. The mall has tons of surface parking, and if they got creative, could even eliminate or build on/replace one or more of the parking structures with retail on parking. 

There isn’t much surface parking left. Aside from the small amount fronting the anchors, the only surface parking with enough room to develop is surrounding Dick’s and The Container Store.

If Simon could acquire the land that the (outdated) DoubleTree currently occupies it would allow them ample room to expand the mall outwards towards Symphony Park. Speaking of Symphony Park, I wonder if the plans Simon announced before the pandemic to convert it into a town center were cancelled.

[Temeteron]

1 hour ago, TheOneRJ said:

There isn’t much surface parking left. Aside from the small amount fronting the anchors, the only surface parking with enough room to develop is surrounding Dick’s and The Container Store.

If Simon could acquire the land that the (outdated) DoubleTree currently occupies it would allow them ample room to expand the mall outwards towards Symphony Park. Speaking of Symphony Park, I wonder if the plans Simon announced before the pandemic to convert it into a town center were cancelled.

There is plenty of surface parking on the Macy’s/Dillards side off Morrowcroft

[TheOneRJ]

3 hours ago, Temeteron said:

There is plenty of surface parking on the Macy’s/Dillards side off Morrowcroft

These are very small parking lots. Neither of these spaces are large enough for a parking structure unless the current Dillard’s parking deck is expanded. Otherwise this parking would have to be moved elsewhere for redevelopment of these spaces.

[Madison Parkitect]

13 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

If Simon could acquire the land that the (outdated) DoubleTree currently occupies it would allow them ample room to expand the mall outwards towards Symphony Park.

I had to get a rental car from the Enterprise in that hotel and oh boy is that hotel really rough. It's shocking how outdated it is for being in such an upscale area. It's like they haven't put any money into it in 30 years.

[JRCLT]

I understand south parks success…but I really hate it’s suburban nature…an island attraction surrounded a sea of parking and fast current heavy traffic wide roads making the whole area a walkability nightmare. All so close to center city…

[kayman]

7 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I understand south parks success…but I really hate it’s suburban nature…an island attraction surrounded a sea of parking and fast current heavy traffic wide roads making the whole area a walkability nightmare. All so close to center city…

I believe that's why SouthPark is now a municipal service district (MSD) aka NC-version of a community/business improvement district (BID/CID). The SouthPark MSD long range plan is to break down as many superblocks into walkable blocks as possible outside of the mall property itself. 

That's why Simon ought to go as vertical with a second level, & as many highrises on-site, as possible while creating as many adjacent to street-streetfacing active retail areas along public streets throughout the mall property.

Look at what has occurred with the redevelopment and density created in Tysons, Virginia in the DMV and the densitification of Buckhead in Atlanta as key examples of the future evolution of SouthPark. 

[LKN704]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:50 AM, Madison Parkitect said:

I had to get a rental car from the Enterprise in that hotel and oh boy is that hotel really rough. It's shocking how outdated it is for being in such an upscale area. It's like they haven't put any money into it in 30 years.

Off topic but years ago I had family stay there and it was easily one of the strangest hotels I have ever been in. Everything about it gave me this eerie feeling...I felt like I was an urban explorer walking around an abandoned hotel.

The layout of the property makes me think it was some kind of executive housing before it became a Doubletree...the check in desk and layout of the lobby reminded me of a building concierge/security desk in an apartment building, and the way they built the complex around the pool (which strangely has a waterfall in it?) also gives me apartment complex vibes. 

I saw enough faux mahogany wall-paneling for a lifetime after being in the hotel for about an hour. 

[LKN704]

45 minutes ago, kayman said:

Look at what has occurred with the redevelopment and density created in Tysons, Virginia in the DMV

I sincerely hope that Southpark does NOT follow Tysons lead IMO. 

First Virginia made the mistake of not allowing the Silver Line to tunnel under the area, and Tysons is now left with extremely tall aerial structures and gigantic elevated stations that form a physical (and mental) barrier between different parts of the area.

All the walkability that the Metro was supposed to create never happened. Sidewalks were never built. In areas where there are sidewalks, they often end abruptly or lead to intersections without crosswalks. The area is extremely dangerous to walk in as a pedestrian. The area has poor transit usage...Tysons alone has 4 metro stations in the neighborhood but only 11% of people who live in Tysons regularly use public transit. Metro has failed to reduce the number of car trips in the area. Traffic is still bad. 

There may be islands of development (like the Boro) but they are isolated from each other and you cannot walk more than a 1/4 from them without putting your own body at risk of getting hit by someone speeding in an Escalade. The new housing development estimates that were drawn up pre-Metro opening are severally overestimated. 

These images below alone illustrate everything wrong with Tysons...beautiful Metro stations surrounded by high-speed roads. 

 

The last image is from an article entitled "Many Silver Line riders have no way to safely reach their offices".

Anyways, rant aside, I think Southpark is actually way more walkable than Tysons. Southpark also seems more dense to me, but that could be because it is more heavily wooded than Tysons. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by LKN704

[kayman]

1 hour ago, LKN704 said:

I sincerely hope that Southpark does NOT follow Tysons lead IMO. 

First Virginia made the mistake of not allowing the Silver Line to tunnel under the area, and Tysons is now left with extremely tall aerial structures and gigantic elevated stations that form a physical (and mental) barrier between different parts of the area.

All the walkability that the Metro was supposed to create never happened. Sidewalks were never built. In areas where there are sidewalks, they often end abruptly or lead to intersections without crosswalks. The area is extremely dangerous to walk in as a pedestrian. The area has poor transit usage...Tysons alone has 4 metro stations in the neighborhood but only 11% of people who live in Tysons regularly use public transit. Metro has failed to reduce the number of car trips in the area. Traffic is still bad. 

There may be islands of development (like the Boro) but they are isolated from each other and you cannot walk more than a 1/4 from them without putting your own body at risk of getting hit by someone speeding in an Escalade. The new housing development estimates that were drawn up pre-Metro opening are severally overestimated. 

These images below alone illustrate everything wrong with Tysons...beautiful Metro stations surrounded by high-speed roads. 

 

The last image is from an article entitled "Many Silver Line riders have no way to safely reach their offices".

Anyways, rant aside, I think Southpark is actually way more walkable than Tysons. Southpark also seems more dense to me, but that could be because it is more heavily wooded than Tysons. 

I agree about the older parts of Tysons as it's layout similar to Perimeter Center and Cumberland areas in Metro Atlanta. However, I feel that SouthPark will rapidly transform into a more densely developed edge city. 

[JRCLT]

I believe that's why SouthPark is now a municipal service district (MSD) aka NC-version of a community/business improvement district (BID/CID). The SouthPark MSD long range plan is to break down as many superblocks into walkable blocks as possible outside of the mall property itself. 
That's why Simon ought to go as vertical with a second level, & as many highrises on-site, as possible while creating as many adjacent to street-streetfacing active retail areas along public streets throughout the mall property.
Look at what has occurred with the redevelopment and density created in Tysons, Virginia in the DMV and the densitification of Buckhead in Atlanta as key examples of the future evolution of SouthPark. 

SouthPark has a weird location flanked by SFH on all sides which could make things difficult…for density and transit alike. Hopefully its a place that values walkability in the future.

[Madison Parkitect]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:28 PM, LKN704 said:

Off topic but years ago I had family stay there and it was easily one of the strangest hotels I have ever been in. Everything about it gave me this eerie feeling...I felt like I was an urban explorer walking around an abandoned hotel.

The layout of the property makes me think it was some kind of executive housing before it became a Doubletree...the check in desk and layout of the lobby reminded me of a building concierge/security desk in an apartment building, and the way they built the complex around the pool (which strangely has a waterfall in it?) also gives me apartment complex vibes. 

I saw enough faux mahogany wall-paneling for a lifetime after being in the hotel for about an hour. 

You'll be pleased to know all that faux mahogany paneling is still there and hasn't been repaired in any way since you saw it "years ago."