SouthPark Mall

[juniper]

"Bergdorf Goodman has a lot of international and tourist customers, so they'd lose a lot of business not accepting Visa. NM treats them differently in the corporate hirearchy becuase of this. I actually prefer BG over NM usually, but NM is easier to get to."

NM only takes their own card and AMEX because AMEX is the only one that allows them to gather customer information. That's why you can order with a visa online or over the phone: because you have to give them your address, et cetera.

"I think it comes down to subjective factors when comparing one store's service to another. I'm not a big TRC fan because I've never gotten very good service there, whereas Old Dog Clothing Co. and Paul Simon Co. have always been hospitable."

I like shopping at TRC but they can be really stuffy. Mr. Conger always remembers me, and the other partners are very nice, but if another employee spots me first then I receive patronizing remarks. I was looking at sportcoats, trying them on, and a guy came up to me and said, "we have jeans in a room over there." I just said, "oh, I know, I'm trying on jackets right now." Then later when I was actually looking at the jeans and what not, he came back to ask us if we were killing time before a movie. My wife has a bit of a shorter fuse than I do. She said, "we came to shop."

[moving uptown]

trc?

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Jackson at Belk is amazing. Everyone that shops in the suit department goes directly to him and will wait in line for an hour if he's busy. He must make a ton of commission.

A good friend of mine worked for years at Belk Store Services and said that year after year, Jackson was the top salesperson in the entire Belk chain. Don't know if that's still the case, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. He's definitely good at what he does. Heath in the men's shoe department is also excellent. He's been there for at least 20 years.

[juniper]

trc?

Taylor Richards and Conger. They have a website, www.trcstyle.com but they don't really update it. The video is new but the articles and q&a have been up since at least fall 2005.

[mallguy]

There is now drywall (sticking out in hallway, indicating construction in the store space) up in the main corridor where a few of the recently-closed stores were; apparently there are a few new stores coming soon.

The Dillard's looks nice- and a BIG suit sale going on through February sometime, with an additional 30% off ending today. Good service today and good deals there!

[StevenRocks]

When did LV have a counter inside Belk?

I know it was there most of the '90s on Level 2 near the escalators, approximately between where the Nautica department and Cosmetics is now.

[DigitalSky]

hey here's something interesting. As of current, Hanes Mall has 1,494,945 square feet. SouthPark has 1,448,784 square feet. That means, if SouthPark were to add only 46,161 square feet, it would make them the largest mall in the state.

Sources:

http://www.shophanesmall.com/shop/hanes.ns...tSheet?readform

http://freesearch.costar.com/Detail/Detail...2DB2151BCF5FE0A

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

hey here's something interesting. As of current, Hanes Mall has 1,494,945 square feet. SouthPark has 1,448,784 square feet. That means, if SouthPark were to add only 46,161 square feet, it would make them the largest mall in the state.

Interesting. I know that limits were put on SouthPark's size when they did the rezoning a few years back, as a compromise of sorts with the surrounding neighborhoods that wanted NO expansion at the mall whatsoever. Have the recent expansions brought the mall to that limit? Could they expand another 46,000 sq. feet even if they wanted to?

[DigitalSky]

Interesting. I know that limits were put on SouthPark's size when they did the rezoning a few years back, as a compromise of sorts with the surrounding neighborhoods that wanted NO expansion at the mall whatsoever. Have the recent expansions brought the mall to that limit? Could they expand another 46,000 sq. feet even if they wanted to?

Hmm. I think they could, and as I was thinking, that number probably doesn't reflect the finished Dillard's expansion, so if you take that into account and then the possibility of Neiman Marcus adding a third level, that would easily make SouthPark the largest mall in the state.

[moving uptown]

Hmm. I think they could, and as I was thinking, that number probably doesn't reflect the finished Dillard's expansion, so if you take that into account and then the possibility of Neiman Marcus adding a third level, that would easily make SouthPark the largest mall in the state.

how does that compare to concord mills or is that not considered a mall?

[juniper]

I know it was there most of the '90s on Level 2 near the escalators, approximately between where the Nautica department and Cosmetics is now.

That's interesting. My wife, who worked for BSS up until recently, vaguely remembered this.

how does that compare to concord mills or is that not considered a mall?

Concord Mills is now smaller than SouthPark, but I'm not sure of the exact size.

[DigitalSky]

how does that compare to concord mills or is that not considered a mall?

It is considered the 4th largest mall, after Hanes, SouthPark and Triangle Town Center!

I believe the list for NC's top 10 is like this (someone correct me if i'm wrong)

1- Hanes Mall

2- SouthPark Mall

3- Triangle Town Center

4- Concord Mills

5- Crabtree Valley

6- The Streets at Southpoint

7- Northlake Mall

8- Carolina Place Mall

9- Four Seasons Town Center

10- Eastland Mall

That's interesting. My wife, who worked for BSS up until recently, vaguely remembered this.

Concord Mills is now smaller than SouthPark, but I'm not sure of the exact size.

I believe Concord Mills is around 1.4, that's what I've always heard and read, don't know the exact footage.

[monsoon]

The vast expansion of SouthPark from what it was when built in 1971 is another of Charlotte's biggest urban planning failures. It ranks up there with the building of I-277 and the leveling of most of downtown. Bragging over who has the largest mall is like bragging over who has the worst cancer.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

The vast expansion of SouthPark from what it was when built in 1971 is another of Charlotte's biggest urban planning failures. It ranks up there with the building of I-277 and the leveling of most of downtown. Bragging over who has the largest mall is like bragging over who has the worst cancer.

Where do you hear bragging? Cantnot starts their post by saying "Hey, here's something interesting...." And if, indeed, SouthPark is now or soon will be the largest mall in the state, then that IS an item of some interest. Whether or not SouthPark is/was an urban planning failure isn't even remotely part of cantnot's post.

Thanks for bringing that to our attention, cantnot! Many of us will be interested to find out if SouthPark is...or soon will be....the largest mall in North Carolina.

Edited February 6, 2007 by PlazaMidwoodGuy

[AuLukey]

Well regardless of the woes of malls in general, do you all think that SouthPark, as an area of the city, would have blossomed into what it is today if the mall had not been built there? In a way, despite the mall itself being a poor example of urban planning, it did spark a heck of a lot of property value increases and higher end development in the long run. Or am I wrong? was this area geographically destined to become the "premier" area of the city regardless?

Edited February 6, 2007 by aussie luke

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Well regardless of the woes of malls in general, do you all think that SouthPark, as an area of the city, would have blossomed into what it is today if the mall had not been built there? In a way, despite the mall itself being a poor example of urban planning, it did spark a heck of a lot of property value increases and higher end development in the long run. Or am I wrong? was this area geographically destined to become the "premier" area of the city regardless?

For the most part, the southern side of Charlotte was already the more affluent section of the city by the time they started building the mall on the southern fringe of town. With that in mind, I think what is now the SouthPark area would still have become one of the "nicer" areas of the city. But there's no doubt that area wouldn't have exploded like it did without the mall. And the trend over the last few years to make the mall even more "upscale" is only inflating the property values in that vicinity even more.

[monsoon]

I disagree the mall has much to do with inflating property values around it. There is no proof that SP had anything to do with that. In fact, the nicest neighborhoods over that way are not near that mall.

[ScottCLT]

3- Triangle Town Center

From everything I've seen, TTC is 1.3 million sqft, which is less than Concord Mills. What is it with all the big malls in this state being within 100,000 sqft of each other?

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I disagree the mall has much to do with inflating property values around it. There is no proof that SP had anything to do with that. In fact, the nicest neighborhoods over that way are not near that mall.

While there isn't proof that the mall has increased property values, there are some very nice neighborhoods right next door, namely to the east.

Morrocroft Estates and Foxcroft are home to some of the richest people in Charlotte. Leon Levine, Bruton Smith, and Jerry Richardson all have homes there. The Croslands', and the Harris' also have residences there, although I believe the family leaders live in Seven Eagles.

---

Does the size of SouthPark mall include the new SouthPark Village and C&B?

Edited February 6, 2007 by moonshield

[AuLukey]

I disagree the mall has much to do with inflating property values around it. There is no proof that SP had anything to do with that. In fact, the nicest neighborhoods over that way are not near that mall.

I agree met, there is no hard evidence that the mall had an impact on the area because we don't have numbers to match that up against had the mall not been built. Regardless though, any mall will spur at least some development after it is built, however positive or negative. Look at Northlake and Concord Mills, before the malls were built, property values in those areas were nothing worth mentioning outside of their proximity to the interstates. Now suddenly land in those areas have become hot(ter) commodities.

Concord Mills is especially an example of a mall that changed the face of a city. Concord has long been one of the stronger towns of the Charlotte metro but was merely a blip on the map as far as entertainment was considered. Before Concord Mills, one of the only things to do was go into Charlotte. Going to downtown Concord wore out after awhile. Even shopping at most major big boxes required driving into Charlotte.

Now, within the last decade (or however long it has been) Concord's border with Mecklenburg County has burst into hotels, restaurants, the new Convention Center, and other general sprawl (aka bad planning.) However, this area has generated massive amounts of revenue for both Concord and Cabarrus county. Hotel occupancy in the city is at an all time high (which can only be partially in part due to increasing the seating capacity of LMS) which can easily be noted that is a direct impact of the ever growing "hotel forest" built up a block from the mall. So, despite the woes that malls bring to an area, they drastically change the outcome of that area. Who knows what would have developed in the space between residential Concord (the pre-CMills city limit) and Charlotte had the mall not been built. My guess is that it would've stayed farmland or have been developed into a mass of coldesac neighborhoods.

While this rant may better suit the Concord Mills thread, I use it as an example that despite an area's prestige or humility, a large-scale development such as a mall is bound to steer an area into a completely different direction than it would have gone otherwise. Thus, while the neighborhoods of SouthPark may not all be directly next to the mall, much of the newer urban development is springing up along the very same roads that border the mall. It just amazes me that in a time of interstate ramp build-up, an area completely isolated from them would become so well developed from the 70's through the 90's. I'm sure SouthPark is not alone in this development trend, but in my opinion, that area's overall success is due to the presence of the mall. It may not have the impact now that it used to, but in order to get the ball rolling, something has to push it.

Otherwise an argument over the location of nice neighborhoods spurring high end development can be questioned as to areas such as Myer's Park. Why didn't it become like SouthPark? Then again, there are many things about that area in Charlotte which I must admit I do not know due to my inexperience of urban interest. So I welcome any criticism to my opinion.

[monsoon]

^By the mid 1980s, SouthPark was a dark dead dying mall. The interior had not been updated in 15 years, and it was not a popular mall for shopping. Despite that, the area around Southpark continued to grow and prosper. I know this very well as I lived off Colony Rd. in 1984 & 1985. However if and when I needed to mall shop I, like everyone else I knew, went to Eastland. At that time Foxcroft East was one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Charlotte being built and people continued to move into the area.

In other words, the area developed despite the presence of the mall.

In regards to Concord Mills, one could argue that it is there because of the Speedway. I will agree that malls often locate in areas where vast sprawl is occuring and that is certainly happening in that part of Cabarrus county though most of it is due to really bad planning. That sprawl stops dead when one gets to the border in Huntersville where they don't allow it. And the disaster around Concord Mills highlights how little effect that Southpark had on the area around it. It is in the middle of a residential neighbor sector of Charlotte, not in the middle of sprawling big box retail.

I will repeat what I said earlier, regional shopping malls are a mistake not an asset. They suck life off the streets, increase traffic congestion, and are a symptom of a people living an unsustainable lifestyle.

[otherstream]

^By the mid 1980s, SouthPark was a dark dead dying mall. The interior had not been updated in 15 years, and it was not a popular mall for shopping. Despite that, the area around Southpark continued to grow and prosper. I know this very well as I lived off Colony Rd. in 1984 & 1985. However if and when I needed to mall shop I, like everyone else I knew, went to Eastland. At that time Foxcroft East was one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Charlotte being built and people continued to move into the area.

In other words, the area developed despite the presence of the mall.

I largely agree that a mall's fortunes generally follow the fortunes of the surrounding area, rather than vice versa. Southpark was not directly responsible for any residential boom in the area; very few malls have that effect. But you have to admit that the presence of the mall was largely -- if not almost entirely -- responsible for all the office/business development in the area, which ultimately affected the residential component -- and will do so even more in the coming years. It's just like the effect Tyson's Corner (DC) and Lenox Square (Atlanta) had over their areas.

I'd have to say that the description of Southpark as "dark, dead, and dying" in the 1980s may be a bit of an exaggeration, though. Granted, it was a few years older than Eastland and might've looked it, but I remember thinking in 1986, while managing a store across the street, that Eastland was Charlotte's dowdy and doomed mall and that Southpark was the more upscale option. Southpark may have been eclipsed briefly as the "prestige center" in town, but it was never really in such terrible shape. Like the older Friendly Center in Greensboro, which had a similar cycle, it's pretty much the top of the heap now, which wouldn't likely be the case if its past decline had been significant.

None of this, mind you should be construed to suggest that I'm particularly fond of Southpark or its environs. I avoid the whole area like the plague; it's amazing how successfully it manages to be both bland and pretentious.

[StevenRocks]

I will repeat what I said earlier, regional shopping malls are a mistake not an asset. They suck life off the streets, increase traffic congestion, and are a symptom of a people living an unsustainable lifestyle.

Regional shopping malls were an inevitablity of the suburban age and a reaction to what was perceived at the time as cramped, inconvenient, congested downtowns. There were a lot of development mistakes made over the past 50 years or so, but malls are a symptom, not a cause, of humanity's desire to consume more than what it needs to.

SouthPark should not be the poster child for what ails the region. And despite its' near-failure as a shopping destination, it recovered nicely and will likely have a robust future, somewhat ironically, as a new kind of dense urban center

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

Regional shopping malls were an inevitablity of the suburban age and a reaction to what was perceived at the time as cramped, inconvenient, congested downtowns. There were a lot of development mistakes made over the past 50 years or so, but malls are a symptom, not a cause, of humanity's desire to consume more than what it needs to.

SouthPark should not be the poster child for what ails the region. And despite its' near-failure as a shopping destination, it recovered nicely and will likely have a robust future, somewhat ironically, as a new kind of dense urban center

Good point! While there were certainly mistakes made over the years where SouthPark (or pretty much any other suburban shopping mall) is concerned, I think SouthPark has done a pretty good job of reinventing itself and has become a focal point for an entire section of the city of Charlotte. Would I prefer to see every square foot of that retail in Uptown Charlotte? You betcha! But I've seen a lot worse than SouthPark when it comes to malls and the development that surrounds them.

[monsoon]

... You betcha! But I've seen a lot worse than SouthPark when it comes to malls and the development that surrounds them.

What examples might that be in Charlotte?

By any measure SouthPark's development is about as bad as it gets in terms of urban development and sustainability. I see no evidence that it is developing into a dense urban center. The reality of the situation is that it is a shopping mall focused on itself with little regard for the surroundings, all of the office space is disconnected glass box buildings, and the token new urbanist development that has sprung up around it is nothing but botique housing that will only serve very well off people. There is no community building there as Southpark's persona is exclusivity. In fact the long term community that was there before the new mall often protests the continued construction at Southpark. This is an example of how not to build an urban environment as there are tens of thousands there, and not one pedestrian to be found. Sure thjere are dead malls and strip malls that look worse but ironically that is why SP is worse than all of them. They spend a lot of money trying to dress up 1970s thinking on urban planning.

It's fine that you think Southpark is great development, but many people involved with this forum would disagree that a regional shopping mall represents good urban development.