SouthPark Mall

[mallguy]

I agree with monsoon's views of SouthPark. The mall is in a relatively dense area, although it is still not pedestrian-friendly. For example, I like to go from the mall to Barnes & Noble and Harris-Teeter, but I pretty much have to drive between all three destinations.

I think Northlake, Eastland, Concord Mills and Carolina Place are all worse from a pedestrian's perspective, but just because there are larger parking lots and less dense development around those malls, not because the planning around those other malls is any better; all of them, including SouthPark, are equally car-friendly.

[uptownliving]

Obviously Southpark is not a beacon of urbanity...but I do give them credit for putting in sidewalks all around the mall that actually connect to the mall. You can walk on a sidewalk from the entrance of the mall to any of the surrounding properties. You can't do that at Eastland, Carolina Place, or Concord Mills. At those malls you are forced to walk across a huge parking lot where sidewalks don't exist. In the case of Concord Mills there are no pedestrian crosswalks (or sidewalks) for Speedway Blvd so good luck walking anywhere there.

You won't see a lot of people on the sidewalks around SouthPark Mall, but at least the infrastructure is there so that people that chose to walk have the option to do so safely.

Edited February 7, 2007 by uptownliving

[monsoon]

......

You won't see a lot of people on the sidewalks around SouthPark Mall, ....

Enough said. Like I said above, it's especially sad in the SouthPark case because of the amount of investment that has taken place there. Eastland at least has the excuse of 20 years of neglect.

[otherstream]

You won't see a lot of people on the sidewalks around SouthPark Mall, but at least the infrastructure is there so that people that chose to walk have the option to do so safely.

Agreed. To be honest, I've never felt that the sidewalks were all that especially crowded in Dilworth or Elizabeth or Plaza-Midwood most of the time either.

Southpark is what it is: a suburban shopping mall surrounded by a suburban office park. I agree that it's probably a good deal better than most other mall-centered developments and most other suburban commercial developments in general. At least in the Southpark area the stores, restaurants, and offices are close enough that you could walk to them if you were so inclined, even if you didn't see much interesting stuff along the way.

My problem with the area stems less from the physical layout and more from the fact that I'm not in its target demographic; I find "upscale" malls exceedingly boring, and I'd argue that there's more "urbanity" in the re-purposed strip centers and thrift stores and ethnic markets along South Boulevard and Central Avenue that there ever will be at Southpark or any other sanitized, overplanned "mixed-use" area or project, no matter how "dense" it may be.

[Miesian Corners]

SP reminds me of a better version of Cherry Creek in Denver or Southdale Center in Edina, MN (suburban MPLS). Unlike those in Denver and Edina (and as Plaza Midwood said), at the very least developers and the city have attempted to make the SP area more pedestrian friendly. I do see many people using the new sidewalks around the mall as a running track (maybe because of all of the hotels in the area).

I'm not saying that any of the three mentioned are models of good development, just that they typify retail found in most less-dense American cities.

Otherstream, I don't fit the demographic either. But as an aspiring demographer, from what you stated, I can tell you that people like us do fit Central Ave and South Blvd markets. That in itself tells a story. Retailers choose locations because of a target demographic and similar/complimentary competitors (and, to a degree, where they can afford to lease space). We're never going to see a Value Village, Paper Skyscraper, or Hmong market on Sharon Rd (or Fifth Ave in NYC, Newbury Street in Boston, Michigan Ave in Chicago, Union Square in San Francisco, etc.) nor are we ever going to see a Tiffany on Central Ave.

Edited February 7, 2007 by Miesian Corners

[otherstream]

We're never going to see a Value Village, Paper Skyscraper, or Hmong market on Sharon Rd (or Fifth Ave in NYC, Newbury Street in Boston, Michigan Ave in Chicago, Union Square in San Francisco, etc.) nor are we ever going to see a Tiffany on Central Ave.

Agreed completely. I was just saying that my distaste for Southpark is largely a subjective thing based on my own tastes and not necessarily a criticism of its physical characteristics. In other words, I didn't want to seem like I was saying that the fact that I don't like malls makes all malls inherently bad.

Edited February 7, 2007 by otherstream

[turbocraig]

MC, are you talking about the Cherry Creek Mall itself, or the Cherry Creek area? The area around the mall is very pedestrian friendly. I was just there last month and walked all around there. Lots of streetfront retail, restaurants, etc in low-rise buildings... there were people walking all over the place. It's much better from that standpoint than SP, in my opinion.

[PlazaMidwoodGuy]

What examples might that be in Charlotte?

It's fine that you think Southpark is great development, but many people involved with this forum would disagree that a regional shopping mall represents good urban development.

Examples? Eastland, Carolina Place, North Lake and Concord Mills.

Carolina Place sits in a sprawly, big-box cluttered, traffic congested nightmare. North Lake is a suburban mall at an interstate exit surrounded by a sea of asphalt, and increasingly surrounded by cookie cutter residential. The same can be said of Concord Mills, but on a larger and uglier scale than North Lake. Eastland is....well...Eastland.

I never said SouthPark was great development. I didn't say it was URBAN development at all, good or bad. I said it has done a good job of reinventing itself...changing with the times, if you will. I also said I would've preferred all that shopping to be downtown. But the reality is that it isn't. The mall is there, it's not going away anytime soon and it's still a better environment, IMO, than the other malls I listed above. It's stable, it's an anchor for an entire section of the city, and over the years it has managed to lose at least some of its original, totally suburban feel, whether or not you happen to like its existence. Would I like to see more pedestrians using the sidewalks there? Sure. But the lack of people walking around the area would seem to be more a product of our car-based American culture and the way people THINK about getting from point A to point B than anything else. Could people park at Morrocroft Village and do a little shopping at, say, Borders and THEN walk over to the mall to pick up some glassware at Crate & Barrel, a new top at Banana Republic and some overpriced jeans at Lucky, THEN walk over to Harper's for a smart lunch? Sure they could! And they could do all that relatively easily. But will they? I doubt it. Heck, there are people that will eat dinner in one end of Uptown and then get in their car to DRIVE to the other end of it to go to a bar, when they could have easily walked the entire way!

I'm all for dense, urban, walkable, sustainable development. But we're talking about something that was built as a suburban shopping mall 37 years ago. I maintain that, compared to the other examples of regional malls in the Charlotte area, SouthPark isn't doing so bad.

Edited February 7, 2007 by PlazaMidwoodGuy

[mallguy]

At least SouthPark has an excuse and they're trying to improve: it was built when "pedestrian-friendly" developments didn't really exist much, and at least density around the mall, with sidewalks, is growing.

Northlake and Concord Mills don't have an excuse, as they were built when people knew better than to build sprawling malls surrounded by seas of asphalt and horrid sprawl, and pedestrian-friendly developments could have easily been done instead. Shame!

The worst is the former Bell Tower Mall in Greenville, SC- at one end of downtown, at the edge of urban, pedestrian-friendly development and next to what turned out to be a beautiful park and waterfall, but still just a bad '60s beige brick mall surrounded by a sea of asphalt, with no consideration for the mall's surroundings!

[Miesian Corners]

MC, are you talking about the Cherry Creek Mall itself, or the Cherry Creek area? The area around the mall is very pedestrian friendly. I was just there last month and walked all around there. Lots of streetfront retail, restaurants, etc in low-rise buildings... there were people walking all over the place. It's much better from that standpoint than SP, in my opinion.

Cherry Creek area (around the mall). I thought the mall was pretty darn ugly (although the greenway on the creek is nice) and maneuvering the parking lot and internal roads was terrible. Colorado Blvd running past the office buildings was no better than sections of Independence Blvd. Strip development, offices set far back from the street with surface parking, etc. And while the Cherry Creek area has some good street retail, I didn't see how it was much different than what Piedmont Town Center and the Grubb project are like.

[turbocraig]

2nd Ave and all the cross streets around there (Fillmore, Clayton, Milwaukee, Detroit) are all a gridded network and very ped-friendly with street level stuff, not like an internally-oriented stand-alone development. Maybe you didn't get over to those blocks, but I'd love to see SP have that kind of development. You should definitely check it out next time you're there.

[monsoon]

Northlake and Concord Mills don't have an excuse, as they were built when people knew better than to build sprawling malls surrounded by seas of asphalt and horrid sprawl, and pedestrian-friendly developments could have easily been done instead. Shame!ings!

Actually Northlake with built with a transit mall in mind, and all of the streets there have sidewalks and Bike Lanes. It's probably doing a better job, such as it is, than Southpark.

[mallguy]

Actually Northlake with built with a transit mall in mind, and all of the streets there have sidewalks and Bike Lanes. It's probably doing a better job, such as it is, than Southpark.

Fair point. I'd just expect that these days, a new retail center would be at least a faux downtown or lifestyle center or the like (at least to look pedestrian-friendly), like the Wal-Mart on Wilkinson. But your point is a good observation; I had forgotten the bike lanes. Does anybody use them?

[Temeteron]

Actually, IMO, i think SouthPark is more urban than Lenox Square.....LS is a nightmare

[Version70-8]

Actually, IMO, i think SouthPark is more urban than Lenox Square.....LS is a nightmare

^^^^^There is no way! At least IMO.

[tiblerbrit]

I had forgotten the bike lanes. Does anybody use them?

Not if they value their life. I got in a traffic accident over there a few years ago because of the ridiculous road construction on I-77 and the filtering of mass amounts of traffic onto one lane of highway (I think this has been fixed), but the I-77 overpass there is scary.

[uptownliving]

Actually, IMO, i think SouthPark is more urban than Lenox Square.....LS is a nightmare

Having actually walked around both those malls I would tend to agree. The sidewalks around Lenox are not very good.

[RubberNecker]

Enough said. Like I said above, it's especially sad in the SouthPark case because of the amount of investment that has taken place there. Eastland at least has the excuse of 20 years of neglect.

You are never going to get people to walk from their million dollar gated communites to Nieman Marcus. It defeats the point of thier 'Benz. Most of the neighborhoods within a 15 mintue walk of the mall are very ritzy and these people wouldn't be caught dead walking to get their mail, let alone the mall!

I work across the street (carnegie blvd) from the mall I the only people is regularly see walking the sidewalks are the folks from the projects. Really there are not that many residences THAT close to the mall to encourage walking. It is improving with Piedmont town center, the residence, and the Earth Fare project (and the many proposed developments) being built as these residences are not the millionaire homes.

Another thing people talk about is SouthPark traffic. Honestly, it isn't bad at all. I drive through it 4 times a day and it isn't bad. Until traffic (and parking) becomes a nightmare like around Phipps and Lenox, people will continue to drive 'cause it is easy!

[spectacle21]

Actually, IMO, i think SouthPark is more urban than Lenox Square.....LS is a nightmare

The area around Lenox Mall may be a traffic nightmare, but it is far more 'urban' than SouthPark.

[mallguy]

Most of the neighborhoods within a 15 mintue walk of the mall are very ritzy and these people wouldn't be caught dead walking to get their mail, let alone the mall!

You're right on and you made me laugh. But the same people who won't walk to SouthPark will walk at least a block or two from their office to Capital Grille uptown. So if there is a pedestrian-friendly and inviting urban environment where it's s easier to get around by foot than by car, they will. They'd still drive to SouthPark but then could maybe walk around as they shop. That kind of environment will be available around SouthPark in many years, if ever, but hopefully it could happen. I'd like to be able to hoof it a block or two to Williams-Sonoma across the street from the mall, but these days, I wouldn't.

[StevenRocks]

I still like SouthPark, warts and all.

[lupitachica]

But the lack of people walking around the area would seem to be more a product of our car-based American culture and the way people THINK about getting from point A to point B than anything else. Could people park at Morrocroft Village and do a little shopping at, say, Borders and THEN walk over to the mall to pick up some glassware at Crate & Barrel, a new top at Banana Republic and some overpriced jeans at Lucky, THEN walk over to Harper's for a smart lunch? Sure they could! And they could do all that relatively easily.

I actually think its the design of the area. Its just not pedestrian friendly imo. Yeah you can walk but its not particularly easy or enjoyable to walk to & from the South Park mall. Before I moved here, I came to visit and even though I was staying at a hotel across the street, it was not simple to cross over to the mall and do my shopping. You're crossing wide lanes of heavy speeding traffic and imo it doesn't feel as if you're meant to walk around over there. I do agree that there's a car based culture here but I think it goes beyond that.

[Temeteron]

New store for SouthPark....Olsen of Europe....will be in the former spot of Crane & Co. next to Guess

[uptownliving]

New store for SouthPark....Olsen of Europe....will be in the former spot of Crane & Co. next to Guess

Will this be their 2nd USA location?

I wish we could get some Euro fashion men's stores here like H&M or Zara...

[JerseyBoy]

Will this be their 2nd USA location?

I wish we could get some Euro fashion men's stores here like H&M or Zara...

I believe so, the other one is at King of Prussia mall near Philadelphia.