Scaleybark Station Area Projects

[kermit]

2 hours ago, VTinCV said:

Would hate to see something too dense especially since it’s surrounded by SFR.

 

-- retracted--

My apologies, I was out of line here.

Edited March 29, 2022 by kermit

[VTinCV]

13 minutes ago, kermit said:

Climate arson...

(not meant personally, but this is a large parcel within easy walking distance of a rail station. This could become one of the more walkable areas of South Charlotte if densification is done well)

Believe me. I appreciate density and work on high density projects on a daily basis. But this is on a neighborhood street that’s already too busy and almost completely surrounded by R-4. I just don’t think 4-5 stories is the right fit here. Along South?  Definitely. And replacing Southgate apartments? Bring it on. 
 

Would be interested to hear if anyone knows of any initial plans for the land.  Looks like no matter what happens a rezoning will have to take place. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by VTinCV

[KJHburg]

Maybe  the answer could be apartments surrounded by for sale 2-3 story townhomes on the perimeter of the property.   This is an interesting track of land and they need to include some affordable housing since this is county owned land in the mix as well. 

[southslider]

Before there even was a Blue Line, Dilworth blocked streets and fought the Arlington.  Back when Blue Line first opened, Dilworth fought connecting Carson St, while Sedgefield fought extending Poindexter Dr.  Over a decade later, and some vocal single-family interests again want to pretend they aren't suitable for more urban development a short walk from train stations.

[SouthEndCLT811]

11 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Maybe  the answer could be apartments surrounded by for sale 2-3 story townhomes on the perimeter of the property.   This is an interesting track of land and they need to include some affordable housing since this is county owned land in the mix as well. 

I actually live on the street that dead ends into the school (Applegate) and always thought if CMS sold the land that a development like what you've described would probably be a good use for it.  Please just put the apartments facing Scaleybark with even micro-retail for a bodega or something   

Either here or retail in the eventual apartments going on the gas station/storage facility/Zack's.

Re: the walkability someone referenced it really is getting to be pretty fun to see all the options we have.  In the past it was the LoSo brewery district and use the walking path on Belrose over to Heather you can get to Park Road in a little over a mile from my house.  But with Burr & Berry, Lower Left, Night Swim, Land of a Thousand Hills, the Gilde area and eventually the additional retail by the station it really does seem the options are growing which is really exciting to see.  (Edit: And also this list may seem like I have a bit of a coffee addiction lol)

Edited March 29, 2022 by SouthEndCLT811

[RANYC]

Given the land-suck and climate impacts of everyone having a car or multiple cars, I wonder if a good argument could be made for giving people who don't own vehicles additional tax breaks on top of what they already would get (such as no registration-related property taxes, gas and other taxes).  Given how much space cars take up, property owners in spaces designed to not accommodate cars might be good candidates for property tax breaks.

Edited March 29, 2022 by RANYC

[stang_esq]

On 3/29/2022 at 7:11 AM, RANYC said:

Given the land-suck and climate impacts of everyone having a car or multiple cars, I wonder if a good argument could be made for giving people who don't own vehicles additional tax breaks on top of what they already would get (such as no registration-related property taxes, gas and other taxes).  Given how much space cars take up, property owners in spaces designed to not accommodate cars might be good candidates for property tax breaks.

I'd love to see that.  You'd be fighting the War On Cars, which I suspect would upset quite a few folks in the Car Estabslishment inebriated with driver subsidies.   But you'd be taking a really positive step toward encouraging folks to choose to live in walkable areas, which would reduce developers' incentive to build in insular, suburban locations, as well as increase the demand for transit and bike infrastructure.  

Regarding the Collinswood parcel, this land sits 2/3 mile from the Scaleybark train station (and bus stop).  That seems like a pretty prime location for people to live densely because a fair % of urban-minded people are willing to walk that distance to hop on a train.   If you traveled a little farther down Scaleybark, then I would admit that folks wouldn't walk that far.  But with a decent-sized parcel like this, I feel it would be a missed opportunity if we didn't go dense.

[RANYC]

6 minutes ago, stang_esq said:

I'd love to see that.  You'd be fighting the War On Cars, which I suspect would upset quite a few folks in the Car Estabslishment inebriated with driver subsidies.   But you'd be taking a really positive step toward encouraging folks to choose to live in walkable areas, which would reduce developers' incentive to build in insular, suburban locations, as well as increase the demand for transit and bike infrastructure.  

Regarding the Collinswood parcel, this land sits 2/3 mile from the Scaleybark train station (and bus stop).  That seems like a pretty prime location for people to live densely because a fair % of urban-minded people are willing to walk that distance to hop on a train.   If you traveled a little farther down Scaleybark, then I would admit that folks wouldn't walk that far.  But with a decent-sized parcel like this, I feel it would be a missed opportunity if we didn't go dense.

Yes, it may be worth trying to take a "carrot" as opposed to "stick" approach to more fully integrating car-less living into the development landscape.  Tax incentives for careless-ness might be an avenue for fuller integration.  Plus, I have a hunch that tax incentives better reflect the reality that people getting around without cars and living in buildings designed without parking spaces have a lower carbon footprint and perhaps maintain living conditions/lifestyles needing a bit less in government resourcing over time.

Edited April 4, 2022 by RANYC

[Blue_Devil]

8 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Yes, it may be worth trying to take a "carrot" as opposed to "stick" approach to more fully integrating car-less living into the development landscape.  Tax incentives for careless-ness might be an avenue for fuller integration.  Plus, I have a hunch that tax incentives better reflect the reality that people getting around without cars and living in buildings designed without parking spaces have a lower carbon footprint and perhaps maintain living conditions/lifestyles needing a bit less in government resourcing over time.

"Of course I don't own cars, my LLC for my 3 dozen rental properties owns them" /s

[hambone931]

On 3/28/2022 at 5:48 PM, VTinCV said:

CMS has the old Colinswood land off of Scaleybark up for sale/lease. Does anyone know if there are any plans for this land yet?  Would hate to see something too dense especially since it’s surrounded by SFR. 
 

https://www.cms.k12.nc.us/cmsdepartments/construction/facilityplanning/Pages/PID-14909432---Scaleybark-Road-Surplus.aspx

This land is under contact with Woodfield Investments. Does anyone have a contact there that could give some insight on what they have planned for this property?

[CLT2014]

57 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Yes, it may be worth trying to take a "carrot" as opposed to "stick" approach to more fully integrating car-less living into the development landscape.  Tax incentives for careless-ness might be an avenue for fuller integration.  Plus, I have a hunch that tax incentives better reflect the reality that people getting around without cars and living in buildings designed without parking spaces have a lower carbon footprint and perhaps maintain living conditions/lifestyles needing a bit less in government resourcing over time.

Honestly... I'm not sure if a tax incentive is going to do much. People are already being "punished" by  skyrocketing fuel prices and car prices. Drivers are forecasted to spend ~$2,000 more in fuel this year.... used compact cars are going for $20,000+. Nonetheless, this town remains addicted to driving and you haven't really seen people cut back on driving or shift to transit in massive numbers. In effect the "carrot" is already there because riding transit is SO MUCH cheaper right now than driving and is a low cost alternative... but people would rather just pay more to drive.

Instead,  there seems to be more massive gas guzzling "all terrain vehicle" people "need" to get from brewery to brewery and navigate the gravel of  the whitewater center.  Everywhere you turn there's a person with a new Ford Bronco, Toyota 4Runner, Chevy Tahoe, Jeep Grand Cherokee, et.... and one of the most popular neighborhoods for these cars is South End itself. Go take a walk through a transit adjacent apartment parking garage.... big luxury SUV's and trucks EVERYWHERE. You barely see a fuel efficient compact or hybrid, let alone car-less living. 

I'm not sure what the breaking point is.... but I think people would spend A LOT of money before giving up their cars and an even bigger stick may be required to combat this stubbornness. during the recession in 2008, many people were current on their car payments and were willing to fall behind on their mortgage first / lose the entire house to foreclosure before they would have the car repossessed. People in poverty in this city are doing everything they can to keep a car versus rely on transit.,, so it is going to take A BIG punishment before middle class and above people give up their cars.

The other stick that may be required.... make traffic awful. Like absolutely awful. In other cities with high transit ridership, trying to commute 25 miles in a car is MISERABLE. Charlotte traffic can be bad during a very specific rush hour band, but this allows people to just make adjustments. If you leave at 7AM, you can commute 25 miles in like 30 minutes in the car. People would rather make a time adjustment, than take transit. In cities with high transit usage, commuting in the car is awful for a much longer period of time and the idea of living 25 miles out is laughable... you'd spend 2 hours each way. For local errands... make traffic so bad that driving to the Publix in South End from the Gold District takes 25 minutes, not 12. Make it so you can jog faster to NoDa than drive from Uptown, et...

Edited April 4, 2022 by CLT2014

[RANYC]

25 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Honestly... I'm not sure if a tax incentive is going to do much. People are already being "punished" by  skyrocketing fuel prices and car prices. Drivers are forecasted to spend ~$2,000 more in fuel this year.... used compact cars are going for $20,000+. Nonetheless, this town remains addicted to driving and you haven't really seen people cut back on driving or shift to transit in massive numbers. In effect the "carrot" is already there because riding transit is SO MUCH cheaper right now than driving and is a low cost alternative... but people would rather just pay more to drive.

Instead,  there seems to be more massive gas guzzling "all terrain vehicle" people "need" to get from brewery to brewery and navigate the gravel of  the whitewater center.  Everywhere you turn there's a person with a new Ford Bronco, Toyota 4Runner, Chevy Tahoe, Jeep Grand Cherokee, et.... and one of the most popular neighborhoods for these cars is South End itself. Go take a walk through a transit adjacent apartment parking garage.... big luxury SUV's and trucks EVERYWHERE. You barely see a fuel efficient compact or hybrid, let alone car-less living. 

I'm not sure what the breaking point is.... but I think people would spend A LOT of money before giving up their cars and an even bigger stick may be required to combat this stubbornness. during the recession in 2008, many people were current on their car payments and were willing to fall behind on their mortgage first / lose the entire house to foreclosure before they would have the car repossessed. People in poverty in this city are doing everything they can to keep a car versus rely on transit.,, so it is going to take A BIG punishment before middle class and above people give up their cars.

The other stick that may be required.... make traffic awful. Like absolutely awful. In other cities with high transit ridership, trying to commute 25 miles in a car is MISERABLE. Charlotte traffic can be bad during a very specific rush hour band, but this allows people to just make adjustments. If you leave at 7AM, you can commute 25 miles in like 30 minutes in the car. People would rather make a time adjustment, than take transit. In cities with high transit usage, commuting in the car is awful for a much longer period of time and the idea of living 25 miles out is laughable... you'd spend 2 hours each way. For local errands... make traffic so bad that driving to the Publix in South End from the Gold District takes 25 minutes, not 12. Make it so you can jog faster to NoDa than drive from Uptown, et...

Do you think there's enough carrot to developers who would build more space-efficient multi-family housing projects purposely without accommodation for cars?

[kermit]

44 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Do you think there's enough carrot to developers who would build more space-efficient multi-family housing projects purposely without accommodation for cars?

No, I do not. The whining about the still relatively high rental prices at the carless Optimist Park project illustrates that. IMO the city should develop a program for developers that is much like the state brownfields remediation program. If a developer builds a carless project then they should get property tax forgiveness for 5-10 years. A carless project should significantly reduce costs to the city elsewhere (road maintenance, enforcement,  emissions, and huge revenue boots from making areas more walkable) so such a plan would be fiscally justifiable. Honestly a better policy would be a parking tax throughout the city, every property owner would pay an annual fee for each space they maintain on their property.

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Honestly... I'm not sure if a tax incentive is going to do much. People are already being "punished" by  skyrocketing fuel prices and car prices. Drivers are forecasted to spend ~$2,000 more in fuel this year.... used compact cars are going for $20,000+. Nonetheless, this town remains addicted to driving and you haven't really seen people cut back on driving or shift to transit in massive numbers. In effect the "carrot" is already there because riding transit is SO MUCH cheaper right now than driving and is a low cost alternative... but people would rather just pay more to drive.

IMO tax incentives need to be at least equitable between drivers and non-drivers. You can currently get a (BIG) tax rebate if you buy an electric car, but there is no rebate for purchasing an electric bike -- why not? California's recent gas price rebates run the same way, drivers get $500, bike and transit riders get bupkis. These sorts of inequities are counter productive and simply encourage more driving.

Speaking of which, none of this discussion about how to reduce auto dependence has touched on climate concerns yet. Those costs are certainly the biggest social financial motivator to reduce driving. Some politician has gotta sack up and implement a substantial carbon tax (with a large portion rebated to low-income folks if necessary). As CLT2014 points out, $4 / gallon didn't change anyone's behavior, so lets make gas $10 / gallon and use the proceeds to build alternative forms of transportation. Nobody (other than a few weirdos like me) is gonna reduce their auto reliance without hitting them with a big stick.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

Is anyone aware of surveys that ask how much money people would require to remunerate them to live without a car? I have seen such surveys to ask what amount would be required to live without Google on their devices and such online choices, but nothing as large as the automobile. How much would it take for someone (me) to go carless?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/11/fed-tries-to-figure-out-value-of-free-internet-services-to-americans.html

So this, but for autos.

[kermit]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

Is anyone aware of surveys that ask how much money people would require to remunerate them to live without a car? I have seen such surveys to ask what amount would be required to live without Google on their devices and such online choices, but nothing as large as the automobile. How much would it take for someone (me) to go carless?

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/11/fed-tries-to-figure-out-value-of-free-internet-services-to-americans.html

So this, but for autos.

I don't know of such a survey, and I think I would have come across it if it existed.

I would bet the reason why it (probably) does not exist is because this is an incredibly broad question that would not generate helpful answers unless it was parsed appropriately. It might help to think about your question this way:

• How much would it take for a Ballantyne resident to go carless?
• How much would it take for a Plaza Midwood resident, who lives two blocks from the Teeter, to go carless?

I'll bet that the Btyner would want many thousands of dollars to compensate for the huge inconvenience to their chosen lifestyle, although they probably could not imagine a way to make the change at all. While the PM resident might be willing to do it for the cost of 10 Ubers a month (which is probably less than their car payment). The trick here is for society to find a way for more people to live in PM-like (e.g. walkable) settings and fewer in car dependent areas. The only pathway there is via zoning, code changes,  transit, bike infrastructure, and making suburbanites pay the true cost of their lifestyle choice.

Edited April 4, 2022 by kermit

[SouthEndCLT811]

Back to the topic.  Cool graphic from Twitter of the development in the area.  Add in the Woodfield property on the school site and the area is gaining some solid density

https://twitter.com/CLTdevelopment/status/1511336917840936977

https://twitter.com/BeaconCLT/status/1511390232272416771

Edited April 5, 2022 by SouthEndCLT811

[KJHburg]

this graphic from Thrift real estate summarizes all that is going on in this area. 

[Reverie39]

Holy cow. That area will look nothing like it does now. What are the timescales for these, are we expecting most of this to be complete in the next 2-3 years?

[KJHburg]

7 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Holy cow. That area will look nothing like it does now. What are the timescales for these, are we expecting most of this to be complete in the next 2-3 years?

Half of that is already built or under construction now and they missed the big TriPointe townhome community between S Tryon and I-77 where site development work is being done now. 

[Bjosephson87]

On 4/6/2022 at 5:19 PM, KJHburg said:

this graphic from Thrift real estate summarizes all that is going on in this area. 

What’s the plan for that 2.65 acre lot on South? 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bjosephson87

[KJHburg]

31 minutes ago, Bjosephson87 said:

What’s the plan for that 2.65 acre lot on South? 

that I do not know but I will ask around.  something in my mind said there was a hotel proposal there but not sure.  

[CTiger]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

that I do not know but I will ask around.  something in my mind said there was a hotel proposal there but not sure.  

Nevermind I'm stupid.

Edited April 13, 2022 by CTiger

[Prodev]

13 hours ago, Bjosephson87 said:

What’s the plan for that 2.65 acre lot on South? 

Apartments...shocker.

[stang_esq]

On 4/4/2022 at 3:28 PM, kermit said:

No, I do not. The whining about the still relatively high rental prices at the carless Optimist Park project illustrates that. IMO the city should develop a program for developers that is much like the state brownfields remediation program. If a developer builds a carless project then they should get property tax forgiveness for 5-10 years. A carless project should significantly reduce costs to the city elsewhere (road maintenance, enforcement,  emissions, and huge revenue boots from making areas more walkable) so such a plan would be fiscally justifiable. Honestly a better policy would be a parking tax throughout the city, every property owner would pay an annual fee for each space they maintain on their property.

IMO tax incentives need to be at least equitable between drivers and non-drivers. You can currently get a (BIG) tax rebate if you buy an electric car, but there is no rebate for purchasing an electric bike -- why not? California's recent gas price rebates run the same way, drivers get $500, bike and transit riders get bupkis. These sorts of inequities are counter productive and simply encourage more driving.

Speaking of which, none of this discussion about how to reduce auto dependence has touched on climate concerns yet. Those costs are certainly the biggest social financial motivator to reduce driving. Some politician has gotta sack up and implement a substantial carbon tax (with a large portion rebated to low-income folks if necessary). As CLT2014 points out, $4 / gallon didn't change anyone's behavior, so lets make gas $10 / gallon and use the proceeds to build alternative forms of transportation. Nobody (other than a few weirdos like me) is gonna reduce their auto reliance without hitting them with a big stick.

 

Your post is music to my ears.  Glad I'm not the only weirdo in the neighborhood.

[KJHburg]

I guess this is LoSo news maybe LoLoSo news and I guess everyone missed it worrying about south of the border issues.

""Rally Entertainment will debut its urban pickleball and entertainment concept in lower South End.  Rally will be on a 1.9-acre parcel at Old Pineville Road and Southside Drive. It should open in early 2023.  “Charlotte is such a vibrant city that embraces active living and has a thriving experiential entertainment scene,” says Barrett Worthington, co-founder of Rally. “We knew it would be the perfect place to launch the Rally brand and can’t wait to open in such a buzzworthy neighborhood as LoSo.”  He’s teamed up with Megan Charity — a world-ranked pickleball pro — on that concept. The duo previously founded a tennis and pickleball company with a focus on instruction on a web-based social platform.""

Rally Entertainment picks lower South End for new pickleball concept - Charlotte Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

since exercise reduces stress I recommend everyone giving this place a try