Panel recommends CATS tax

[itsjustme3]

Everyone can ride a bus and everyone pays a tax. There is no difference. Roads get a majority of the funding while transit is left to die like it is now. How are they not paying their fair share? They pay a increased fare everytime they get on. Raise it again shall we! Screw the less fortunate!

Yes, property owners would pay for the improved service (not saying a complete turn around but it would improve at least 1%) just like they paid for the Green Light Plan. That's how this country works, you pay for services that are provided to you, you have the right to patronize them or not.

Society coming to a halt is dramatic. Thousands of people being left without a way to get around is more like it. Wasting taxpayer money will never cease to happen as long as people have opinions.

Yes, let's give and give and give. Broken system? Who cares. Give more. Incompetent CATS planning? Who cares. Give more! Poor service that resulted in CATS losing the LSU contract? WHO CARES. GIVE MORE IF YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY!!

You can turn this into a rich vs poor argument all you want but the facts are CATS is a broken system and the money from my wallet won't make it better.

[Antrell Williams]

Yes, let's give and give and give. Broken system? Who cares. Give more. Incompetent CATS planning? Who cares. Give more! Poor service that resulted in CATS losing the LSU contract? WHO CARES. GIVE MORE IF YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY!!

You can turn this into a rich vs poor argument all you want but the facts are CATS is a broken system and the money from my wallet won't make it better.

I'm not advocating giving them anything, don't know why you're doing all that.

The money from your wallet won't help? New buses? NOPE. New bus stops? NOPE. More routes? HECK NO! More buses? NOOO! Express routes? HECK TO THE NO!

Just to reiterate, I'm not for the tax, but I'm not for keeping the status quo of stagnant Baton Rouge that has us where we are now.

[cajun]

CATS is a disaster. If their routes were any good, they'd have the ridership to support it. Don't think for a second you are supporting transit riders.....you are supporting a failed enterprise.

They lost a huge chunk of revenue with the LSU contract because of student complaints. They are not punctual, their busses are filthy, and their drivers are pathetic.

Vote no, and demand a replacement. The taxpayers already pay for the streets the busses use....now they have to fully subsidize people's means of transport through one of the worst run organizations in the region?

And stop comparing Baton Rouge's per capita funding to Houston, Little Rock, or New Orleans. Those cities have ridership and rail based transit to maintain.

How does a $3 million shortfall justify an $18 million annual check from property owners? Anyone want to answer that?

.....I'm waiting for a modern liberal to somehow connecting my opinion on Baton Rouge's transit with racism, stupidity, hate, or prejudice.

[Antrell Williams]

Vote no....and demand a replacement.

..then what's the point of voting no?

[cajun]

..then what's the point of voting no?

What is the point of voting yes?

[cajun]

..then what's the point of voting no?

What is the point of voting yes?

No one uses the current system, and you want to expand it (more than double the size) under the same incompetent leadership managing the same mode of transportation and fund it with a hefty, unfair tax?

[cajun]

Im over my tax dollars being spent to build roads that I don't use.

You've figured out how to levitate?

What citizen of EBR does not use a city or parishes maintained road, intersection, or sidewalk? Assuming you have figured out how to levitate or if you are bed ridden and don't use transportation, the goods and services you consume we're brought to you on roads....and that includes the over the road bus system that this proposal is all about.

You could argue that there is a benefit to people who don't use transit to having a good transit system by reducing the need for more road resources.....but you'd have to prove that CATS can attract more ridership than it's current dismal numbers. The total budget would now be up to $30 million. Ridership would have to more than double in a city with stagnant population growth to justify that....not to mention that there are only a handful of neighborhoods in Baton Rouge that are not car-centric.

This proposal, as vague as it is, doesn't even include a rail based means of transport, and will create even more incentive to live in a suburb to avoid unfair taxes.

Is Baton Rouge going to have yet another tax to support a rail line?

[Antrell Williams]

You've figured out how to levitate?

What citizen of EBR does not use a city or parishes maintained road, intersection, or sidewalk? Assuming you have figured out how to levitate or if you are bed ridden and don't use transportation, the goods and services you consume we're brought to you on roads....and that includes the over the road bus system that this proposal is all about.

You could argue that there is a benefit to people who don't use transit to having a good transit system by reducing the need for more road resources.....but you'd have to prove that CATS can attract more ridership than it's current dismal numbers. The total budget would now be up to $30 million. Ridership would have to more than double in a city with stagnant population growth to justify that....not to mention that there are only a handful of neighborhoods in Baton Rouge that are not car-centric.

This proposal, as vague as it is, doesn't even include a rail based means of transport, and will create even more incentive to live in a suburb to avoid unfair taxes.

Is Baton Rouge going to have yet another tax to support a rail line?

How are you supposed to prove that CATS can attract riders with it's current situation? Fares increased, they lost the LSU contract, the buses are older than me, and the bus stops look like over-sized birds nests. You don't have to have pedestrian oriented neighborhoods to have a sucessful bus system, but you do have to have good service and good management.

How can you mention rail in this proposal? It would cost multiples more than this one tax and people already don't ride PT in BR.

The proposal isn't vague:

http://www.brcats.com/PageDisplay.asp?p1=2697

http://www.brcats.com/Images/Interior/maps/cats_tax_2012.pdf

What is the point of voting yes?

No one uses the current system, and you want to expand it (more than double the size) under the same incompetent leadership managing the same mode of transportation and fund it with a hefty, unfair tax?

Who's going to come in and provide a bus service?

[cajun]

How are you supposed to prove that CATS can attract riders with it's current situation?

They have been an abject failure at attracting riders.

At $30,000 total budget, their cost of service for 7,000 passengers per day for 360 operating days annually and an average distance traveled would be about as efficient as pairing the riders up and issuing them a taxi. They damn well better come up with way more riders.....and it takes more than fancy bus stops to attract them.

They'd need at least 17,000 riders per day in the new system to justify its costs. More than twice what currently exists. Do you understand how big of a jump that is?

The area served by the proposal hasn't grown very much, and is either services by Tiger Trails or is in an auto-centric neighborhood. The likelyhood of the system expanding beyond 10,000 daily riders within the next decade is very slim.

You don't have to have pedestrian oriented neighborhoods to have a sucessful bus system, but you do have to have good service and good management.

Neither of which CATS has ever provided....and pedestrian oriented neighborhood attract riders.

Unless by "successful" you mean useless and subsidized to the point that it only provides transit for people who have no other option....and doesn't get people out of their cars.

How can you mention rail in this proposal? It would cost multiples more than this one tax and people already don't ride PT in BR.

They don't use buses either but you want to expand bus service. Explain that logic.

Rail is costly, but has proven far more successful at attracting new riders (those with other options) than buses.

Buses don't get people out of their cars in suburban areas like Baton Rouge in enough volume to impact traffic.....and because most

of the city is auto-centric with adequate parking and sprawled development, buses will remain an service used for people who have no other option.

Who's going to come in and provide a bus service?

Find a new provider, as many cities do. LSU found one because the students complained about the same terrible service, filthy buses, bad/dangerous drivers, and pisspoor schedule management that the current CATS users have to endure.

I want to be clear. I'm not attacking transit. I'm attacking the CATS system and this proposal....and thanks for the links. I see more details of the proposal now but still see major issues and vague wording.

Baton Rouge needs great transit. I don't think that is what is proposed here.

[dan326]

I say we try to call the aliens that built the pyramids and get them to fix our problems.

[itsjustme3]

Find a new provider, as many cities do. LSU found one because the students complained about the same terrible service, filthy buses, bad/dangerous drivers, and pisspoor schedule management that the current CATS users have to endure.

It's discussions like these that make me so depressed because A) so many people are addicted to living off of someone roses money (CATS riders for example who want property owners to pay for their transportation) and B) people who have this silly notion that hard working taxpayers should not only feed their families but anyone and everyone else who doesn't have as much of ____ as someone else.

What would happen in this country if there was a great depression tomorrow? Anarchy. Because too many people are addicted on living off of someone elses money and without it being given to them they'd go out and take it from someone who has it.

I have a car. I paid for it because I have a job. I have a job because I went to school and studied. At no point in filling up my car, getting to work, to getting home do I depend on someone elses money. Yet CATS riders do. They ride the bus so they should be the ones paying for it.

If not then CATS will eventually go out of business (be it from a lack of funding or gross mismanagement) and when it does the CATS riders will have to adapt or move to a city like Houston. I hear they have a terrific public transport system.

[buckett5425]

I dont understand why I'm forced to own a car to live in this town, its impossible to do with out it. Maybe I'd like to spend my money on other necessities instead of sitting on traffic.

So instead Im stuck paying for and maintaining my vehicle until I find a job in a city with mass transit, be it publicly or privately funded. Someone explain to me how only have one form of transportation in this city is a wise decision?

Ive said this before, and I've said it again, until we have walkable urban communities in this city, like northgate or perkins road, mass transit will never be successful in this city. Why take a bus when it brings you to nowhere?

[Ronald120]

So you actually think that because something doesn't work in Jefferson Parish that it's doomed to fail in Baton Rouge? What if it works in another part of the country???? Oh I guess that wouldn't count because it didn't work in Jefferson Parish and that trumps every other parish or county in the United States. Right?

Let's see...

Both Jefferson Parish and East Baton Rouge Parish are in Louisiana. They are among the most populous parishes in the state (top 2, over 400k). And both have nearly equally sh*tty bus systems given their populations. It's even worse for Jefferson because their services are even more limited, especially on the Westbank. Nonetheless, Jefferson Parish is the best basis for comparison and Veolia Transportation managing the system hasn't provided any significant improvement to the system, especially returning the system to its Pre-Katrina glory (when it was clearly better than EBR system). Now they have done a better job with RTA; however, that, imo, has nothing to do with the fact that a private company is managing RTA. Before Katrina, RTA was a well-oiled machine that Katrina washed up. Also, no other area in Louisiana has the asset called the St. Charles Streetcar which can practically make any transit system profitable.

[cajun]

I dont understand why I'm forced to own a car to live in this town, its impossible to do with out it. Maybe I'd like to spend my money on other necessities instead of sitting on traffic.

Do what you want with you money....your means of transportation is not the responsibility of the property owners of Baton Rouge.

Maybe you can get the federal government to buy you a Chevy Volt.

So instead Im stuck paying for and maintaining my vehicle until I find a job in a city with mass transit, be it publicly or privately funded. Someone explain to me how only have one form of transportation in this city is a wise decision?

Ive said this before, and I've said it again, until we have walkable urban communities in this city, like northgate or perkins road, mass transit will never be successful in this city. Why take a bus when it brings you to nowhere?

So, on one hand you are frustrated that this tax is unlikely to pass and that so many are against it and you are forced to buy a car....but on the other you admit that buses will fail.

Why saddle taxpayers with the responsibility of paying for a transit system that will fail? Higher property taxes relative to the surrounding areas, combined with the pathetic public schools, are going to encourage people to move to unincorporated areas and the suburbs....decreasing the values of homes in the city. In response, the city raises property tax rates to cover budget short falls. More people leave. The never-ending cycle begins.

Don't pretend that this doesn't happen in the US.

[itsjustme3]

Let's see...

Both Jefferson Parish and East Baton Rouge Parish are in Louisiana. They are among the most populous parishes in the state (top 2, over 400k). And both have nearly equally sh*tty bus systems given their populations. It's even worse for Jefferson because their services are even more limited, especially on the Westbank. Nonetheless, Jefferson Parish is the best basis for comparison and Veolia Transportation managing the system hasn't provided any significant improvement to the system, especially returning the system to its Pre-Katrina glory (when it was clearly better than EBR system). Now they have done a better job with RTA; however, that, imo, has nothing to do with the fact that a private company is managing RTA. Before Katrina, RTA was a well-oiled machine that Katrina washed up. Also, no other area in Louisiana has the asset called the St. Charles Streetcar which can practically make any transit system profitable.

So EBR and Jeff Parish has crappy bus systems? And?

[itsjustme3]

I dont understand why I'm forced to own a car to live in this town, its impossible to do with out it.

If I lived in a town where I had to ride the subway and I detested the subway, I would move. Why is it because you hate cars that property owners like myself would be forced to pay for you and other bus riders? What are you going to do when more and more property owners give up and move? Whose money would you want to take then?

[buckett5425]

Do what you want with you money....your means of transportation is not the responsibility of the property owners of Baton Rouge.

Maybe you can get the federal government to buy you a Chevy Volt.

So, on one hand you are frustrated that this tax is unlikely to pass and that so many are against it and you are forced to buy a car....but on the other you admit that buses will fail.

Why saddle taxpayers with the responsibility of paying for a transit system that will fail? Higher property taxes relative to the surrounding areas, combined with the pathetic public schools, are going to encourage people to move to unincorporated areas and the suburbs....decreasing the values of homes in the city. In response, the city raises property tax rates to cover budget short falls. More people leave. The never-ending cycle begins.

Don't pretend that this doesn't happen in the US.

So you're pretty much apathetic and believe things in BR will never change? All the more reasons to move.

[buckett5425]

If I lived in a town where I had to ride the subway and I detested the subway, I would move. Why is it because you hate cars that property owners like myself would be forced to pay for you and other bus riders? What are you going to do when more and more property owners give up and move? Whose money would you want to take then?

Cities with subways also have roads. Nice thing in a city like that is it gives you the choice to either take the subway, or if you dont like it, you can drive your car. Must be nice to live in a city that provides multiple transportation options.

Who's money would I want to take? Why is this about me taking something from someone else, you act as thought I wouldn't be paying my fair share for this service? Maybe I believe if we ALL pay just a lil bit, we can all have a wonderful system to use that can save your family money. If you choose not to use that service, thats not my fault, but don't deny me that opportunity because you are short sighted. More cars and more roads won't solve BR's problems or increase economic prosperity. However providing multiple transportation options will.

I understand if you don't like CATS, it is a mismanaged system. But one could argue thats due to their lack of funding. But just because you don't like CATS doesn't mean you can bash all mass transit.

[Antrell Williams]

They have been an abject failure at attracting riders.

At $30,000 total budget, their cost of service for 7,000 passengers per day for 360 operating days annually and an average distance traveled would be about as efficient as pairing the riders up and issuing them a taxi. They damn well better come up with way more riders.....and it takes more than fancy bus stops to attract them.

They'd need at least 17,000 riders per day in the new system to justify its costs. More than twice what currently exists. Do you understand how big of a jump that is?

The area served by the proposal hasn't grown very much, and is either services by Tiger Trails or is in an auto-centric neighborhood. The likelyhood of the system expanding beyond 10,000 daily riders within the next decade is very slim.

Yes I understand how big of a jump that is. Do you know what the improvements include? Just in case you don't:

¨ Decrease wait times between buses from the current average of 75 minutes to 15 minutes (at peak hours)

¨ Build 3 new transfer centers to replace "spoke” system with "grid” system

¨ Overhaul bus stops, with new shelters and benches

¨ Overhaul all signage for transit stops, providing detailed route and time information

¨ Add GPS tracking to fleet, with exact arrival times accessible on cell phones

¨ Increase service from 19 to 37 routes, including high-demand areas that currently are not served (eg. O'Neal Lane, Coursey Blvd., Essen and Siegen Lane)

¨ Increase peak-hour buses from 32 to 57.

¨ Create eight new express and limited stop lines

75 minutes to 15 minutes is a drastic improvement, as well as 3 transfer centers, the 18 new routes, peak hour buses increased by 25, and eight express routes. It's not like they are adding 2 buses and a couple bus stops, we might actually see a CATS bus on a daily basis instead of once every blue moon.

Neither of which CATS has ever provided....and pedestrian oriented neighborhood attract riders.

Unless by "successful" you mean useless and subsidized to the point that it only provides transit for people who have no other option....and doesn't get people out of their cars.

They don't use buses either but you want to expand bus service. Explain that logic.

Rail is costly, but has proven far more successful at attracting new riders (those with other options) than buses.

Buses don't get people out of their cars in suburban areas like Baton Rouge in enough volume to impact traffic.....and because most

of the city is auto-centric with adequate parking and sprawled development, buses will remain an service used for people who have no other option.

No by successful I mean able to sustain a profit and provide decent service.

You have to start with buses. You can't have a sucessful rail system without a succesful bus system. Look at our neighbors in New Orleans and here in Houston.

Yes but what would feed that rail? Buses do.

I lived in a car oriented part of Houston and the buses were full 80% of the time, sure all of them didn't have a car but it is a overwhemingly successful system in a car oriented city just like BR, doesn't matter about population. Same concept.

Find a new provider, as many cities do. LSU found one because the students complained about the same terrible service, filthy buses, bad/dangerous drivers, and pisspoor schedule management that the current CATS users have to endure.

I want to be clear. I'm not attacking transit. I'm attacking the CATS system and this proposal....and thanks for the links. I see more details of the proposal now but still see major issues and vague wording.

Baton Rouge needs great transit. I don't think that is what is proposed here.

LSU found one because it's a college campus, no company is coming into Baton Rouge with a privte transit system if we let CATS fold. Would you invest you're money in a city that let it's own system crumble to nothing?

It seems like you're attacking transit. What is proposed here is a beginning, not a solution, not something we can just build and they will come. You have to start somewhere and where else than now? Let CATS fail and we won't have PT for the next 10 years at least.

It's discussions like these that make me so depressed because A) so many people are addicted to living off of someone roses money (CATS riders for example who want property owners to pay for their transportation) and B) people who have this silly notion that hard working taxpayers should not only feed their families but anyone and everyone else who doesn't have as much of ____ as someone else.

What would happen in this country if there was a great depression tomorrow? Anarchy. Because too many people are addicted on living off of someone elses money and without it being given to them they'd go out and take it from someone who has it.

I have a car. I paid for it because I have a job. I have a job because I went to school and studied. At no point in filling up my car, getting to work, to getting home do I depend on someone elses money. Yet CATS riders do. They ride the bus so they should be the ones paying for it.

If not then CATS will eventually go out of business (be it from a lack of funding or gross mismanagement) and when it does the CATS riders will have to adapt or move to a city like Houston. I hear they have a terrific public transport system.

Oh lord $14 a month? Do you even live in EBR? Everyone lives off of everyone. You are not the only one paying for the congested roads and insterstates.

There are students who are trying to buy a car by going to school and studying like you, but since they don't have a car, screw them college kids trying to do anything to get an eduation. You depend on someone elses money when you sit in traffic.

[Antrell Williams]

I dont understand why I'm forced to own a car to live in this town, its impossible to do with out it. Maybe I'd like to spend my money on other necessities instead of sitting on traffic.

So instead Im stuck paying for and maintaining my vehicle until I find a job in a city with mass transit, be it publicly or privately funded. Someone explain to me how only have one form of transportation in this city is a wise decision?

Ive said this before, and I've said it again, until we have walkable urban communities in this city, like northgate or perkins road, mass transit will never be successful in this city. Why take a bus when it brings you to nowhere?

"Americas next great City" except you need a car to live here. How hypocritical eh?

Creating walkable communites is over-rated to me, you can build a denser pedestrian freidnly environment without it having to be super urban. Creating hubs of employment and entertainment systems would help.

The main reason why the light rail in Houston works is because of the medical center. If South Medical District were to be taken in the same direction as TMC here, it would make buses much more feasible.

Do what you want with you money....your means of transportation is not the responsibility of the property owners of Baton Rouge.

Maybe you can get the federal government to buy you a Chevy Volt.

So, on one hand you are frustrated that this tax is unlikely to pass and that so many are against it and you are forced to buy a car....but on the other you admit that buses will fail.

Why saddle taxpayers with the responsibility of paying for a transit system that will fail? Higher property taxes relative to the surrounding areas, combined with the pathetic public schools, are going to encourage people to move to unincorporated areas and the suburbs....decreasing the values of homes in the city. In response, the city raises property tax rates to cover budget short falls. More people leave. The never-ending cycle begins.

Don't pretend that this doesn't happen in the US.

So why is it the responsibilty of others to pay for you're roads if they don't want to? The Volt comment was unessecarily rude.

There is no guarantee it will fail, there is no guarantee it will be sucessful but which is more likely? I'd say that it improves. It happens in the US but you don't get better for free. No city has, no city will. Be stagnant, stay stagnant and young people like me will never return to Baton Rouge.

If I lived in a town where I had to ride the subway and I detested the subway, I would move. Why is it because you hate cars that property owners like myself would be forced to pay for you and other bus riders? What are you going to do when more and more property owners give up and move? Whose money would you want to take then?

Why don't you move then? Anyone who doesn't want to pay for city amenities can move.

[buckett5425]

Thank you Antrell.

And as always, I know some of us disagree a lot, but I do enjoy the exchanging of ideas. So lets keep that up.

[cajun]

So you're pretty much apathetic and believe things in BR will never change? All the more reasons to move.

My definition of better doesn't involve wasting public funds that are needed elsewhere...such as in public safety infrastructure.

The city is getting better because of the people that live there...not because of bloated government.

Baton Rouge has for the most part avoided irresponsible government spending to the scale of many comparable cities. The city turned down ALIVE but taxes itself to improve sewers, sidewalks, parks, fire, and roads. That is prudent behavior.

Now it faces a significant increase of property tax in a district gerry mannered based on public support for bloated government.

Private capital is mobile. Steal from people to support public services they don't want enough, and they will take their tax dollars to the suburbs.

[cajun]

So why is it the responsibilty of others to pay for you're roads if they don't want to?

Are you suggesting that we stop maintaining public right of ways? Maybe you'd be happier in a city without adequate roads.

When have you, as a citizen, not used a street or sidewalk or depend on a product or service that was not brought to you on a road?

The buses that you demand requires them, as an added layer of public service. Streets are far more necessary as basic public infrastructure than vehicles that transport citizens on them.

The Volt comment was unessecarily rude.

Why? What is the difference? The taxpayers are subsidizing the transportation for people. What is to stop them from buying cars for citizens? Since subsidies public transit is now a right, where does the entitlement culture stop?

The federal and state govenments already cover

cell phones, broadband, health care, and food.

Why is the mark of a "good city" one that involves taking from the producers of society and giving to those that don't contribute or contribute very little?

People with that train of thought are always the first to exercise the hypocrisy of criticizing those who move to the suburbs......and always the first to ridicule people who choose not to be robbed blind to pay for crappy public service and bloated government that they don't need.

Baton Rouge's taxes need to remain competitive to the suburbs...otherwise, the city will start a downward spiral that is impossible to correct.

There is no guarantee it will fail, there is no guarantee it will be sucessful but which is more likely? I'd say that it improves. It happens in the US but you don't get better for free. No city has, no city will. Be stagnant, stay stagnant and young people like me will never return to Baton Rouge.

The entire city will be just a little closer to failure if the tax passes because of the unfair nature of the tax and the low usage of public transit. This will incentivize the tax base's already rapid movement to the suburbs.

[buckett5425]

Are you suggesting that we stop maintaining public right of ways? Maybe you'd be happier in a city without adequate roads.

When have you, as a citizen, not used a street or sidewalk or depend on a product or service that was not brought to you on a road?

The buses that you demand requires them, as an added layer of public service. Streets are far more necessary as basic public infrastructure than vehicles that transport citizens on them.

Why? What is the difference? The taxpayers are subsidizing the transportation for people. What is to stop them from buying cars for citizens? Since subsidies public transit is now a right, where does the entitlement culture stop?

The federal and state govenments already cover

cell phones, broadband, health care, and food.

Why is the mark of a "good city" one that involves taking from the producers of society and giving to those that don't contribute or contribute very little?

People with that train of thought are always the first to exercise the hypocrisy of criticizing those who move to the suburbs......and always the first to ridicule people who choose not to be robbed blind to pay for crappy public service and bloated government that they don't need.

Baton Rouge's taxes need to remain competitive to the suburbs...otherwise, the city will start a downward spiral that is impossible to correct.

The entire city will be just a little closer to failure if the tax passes because of the unfair nature of the tax and the low usage of public transit. This will incentivize the tax base's already rapid movement to the suburbs.

"Why is the mark of a "good city" one that involves taking from the producers of society and giving to those that don't contribute or contribute very little?"

So only "have nots" use public transportation? Interesting.

And we've found the root of your argument. Is this where I begin my liberal talking points? haha

[buckett5425]

Baton Rouge's taxes need to remain competitive to the suburbs...otherwise, the city will start a downward spiral that is impossible to correct.

The entire city will be just a little closer to failure if the tax passes because of the unfair nature of the tax and the low usage of public transit. This will incentivize the tax base's already rapid movement to the suburbs.

The suburbs only remain a viable alternative to more dense development as long as fuel prices are low. As fuel costs increase, living in more urban areas will become more competitive if not cheaper. As more people live in urban walkable areas, mass transit becomes more feasible(for the everyday citizen) and the cycle continues. So do not suggest that there is a downward spiral that is impossible to correct. Fuel prices will change peoples living patterns just as cheap fuel prices drove people to the suburbs. Baton Rouge needs to be ahead of the game, not behind.