Carolina Panthers

[HopHead]

As cool as it would be see them going 16-0, I wouldn't mind a loss or two to be honest. That whole undefeated thing starts weighing on you after a while. They already have a two game lead on home field advantage. And now own the tiebreaker on Green Bay.

[CLTProductions]

As cool as it would be see them going 16-0, I wouldn't mind a loss or two to be honest. That whole undefeated thing starts weighing on you after a while. They already have a two game lead on home field advantage. And now own the tiebreaker on Green Bay.

Other than Atlanta once, I am not really sure who they would even lose to. Their remaining schedule is such a joke (even if Romo comes back by Thanksgiving). If I had to be realistic, I'd say they lose to Atlanta once (just cause) and possibly the Giants, finishing the season at 14-2. Just amazing

Edited November 9, 2015 by Jayvee

[HopHead]

Other than Atlanta once, I am not really sure who they would even lose to. Their remaining schedule is such a joke (even if Romo comes back by Thanksgiving). If I had to be realistic, I'd say they lose to Atlanta once (just cause) and possibly the Giants, finishing the season at 14-2. Just amazing

They have the toughest strength of schedule remaining for the unbeaten teams. 

[CLTProductions]

They have the toughest strength of schedule remaining for the unbeaten teams. 

While I think that is a useless stat (it means virtually nothing, look no further than Atlanta), I'd much rather have the Panthers remaining schedule than the Pats or Bengals.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Jayvee

[HopHead]

While I think that is a useless stat (it means virtually nothing, look no further than Atlanta), I'd much rather have the Panthers remaining schedule than the Pats or Bengals.

Anyone can win on a given Sunday, so yea it's a trivial stat. But then again, everyone has pointed out that Carolina hasn't played anyone all year (until yesterday) so it's something to throw back at the pundits. 

[caterpillar2]

Like the perfect deep ball  Ginn dropped in OT or the one dropped by Olsen. etc.  You sound like a parent being overly critical of their child and will never see what the poor kid is doing right.  As for the deep ball on most of those routes, the receiver isn't open, he's overthrowing on purpose to make sure that the only player with a chance of catching the ball is a Panther receiver.  He was doing that on the ball that got intercepted but conditions were so wet he couldn't muster up the distance. 

Your novice perspective and analysis on Cam and football in general is rather alarming.  Cam does have a tendency to overthrow at times but some of it's due to pressure (the other team does play defense) and literally from exhaustion in my opinion, he's asked to run the ball quite a bit and that is a major problem.  He can't keep this up, if so I'd be surprised.  They have some developing options on offense but most haven't matured  enough to support the QB, J Stew is a banger and reliable, hopefully he maintains as well..  I hate to make predictions but Cam is gonna run out of gas, so numbers will drop and the Panthers will do a nose dive soon, losing 3-4 games.  The defense simply isn't getting enough pressure on opposing QBs and without a consistently reliable offense or options aside from Newton, it'll be very difficult to pull out those close games.   Hopefully I am wrong but Cam can't be expected to take that type of punishment and also excel at the QB position, gotta take a toll on the body.

You say that my novice perspective and analysis of Cam and football in general is rather alarming. Yet, you add credit to  what I have said all along. He overthrows, runs too much, etc. Maybe a "novice" sees things as they really are and not as others want him to see.

[AuLukey]

You say that my novice perspective and analysis of Cam and football in general is rather alarming. Yet, you add credit to  what I have said all along. He overthrows, runs too much, etc. Maybe a "novice" sees things as they really are and not as others want him to see.

8-0 with no play-making wide receiver.  I'll just leave that here.

[RiverwoodCLT]

[ES Charlotte]

You say that my novice perspective and analysis of Cam and football in general is rather alarming. Yet, you add credit to  what I have said all along. He overthrows, runs too much, etc. Maybe a "novice" sees things as they really are and not as others want him to see.

Can we just stop talking about it?

[cltbwimob]

Can we just stop talking about it?

Can I get an "Amen"?

[ah59396]

Can we just stop talking about it?

maybe you weren't aware, but Steve Young was also mediocre.  Duh.

[Durhamite]

You say that my novice perspective and analysis of Cam and football in general is rather alarming. Yet, you add credit to  what I have said all along. He overthrows, runs too much, etc. Maybe a "novice" sees things as they really are and not as others want him to see.

Cam throws more on target and great balls than overthrows.  The offense is designed around his ability to run which in my opinion impacts his accuracy at crucial times in the game.  By novice, I mean your analysis is laser focused on stats and comparison to other QBs, their team, and offensive strategy.  The Panthers have had the luxury of focusing on defense in recent drafts because of Cam's ability to run.  The team traded D Will and didn't replace him.  Yet, the Panthers still run the ball at the same rate or 50%+rush to 40% pass, no team in the league runs 50%+ of plays but the Panthers (take a look at Cam's rush stats).  Brady and others use the pass as run plays, short dumps (easier throws with higher completion rate) and depend on blocking schemes and yards after catch to offset the lack of a running game.   It's the state of the game versus the way teams were built 20+ years ago....the Panthers are a throwback while deploying a hybrid spread option attack with Cam as a true running threat and decoy. 

I'm not knocking your opinion or analysis, but from my position as analytic hawk and football fanatic, you obviously can't see what coaches, experts and others use as metrics to evaluate the overall effectiveness of a QB.  

He doesn't run too much because it's an integral part of the offensive scheme and not sure how much one solid rock body can tolerate. Luck is out for 6 weeks.  Losing Cam would totally devastate the offense and the team would have to acquire another RB.  When Cam or the team in general screws up, I have no problem pointing it out.  No disrespect but novice don't see or refuse to fully appreciate all the variables that make a dynamic machine like the Panthers work. 

[CarolinaCrown]

It's gotta be great to practice here. 

[RiverwoodCLT]

Week 9   Carolina is one of the 3 undefeated teams in the NFL.  Carolina is the only teams that has not lost a game in the NFC.  Does the Panther need to get better?  Yes  

From ESPN

The Panthers have won 12 straight regular-season games dating to last season. The Packers were the first team in that stretch that had a winning record entering the week.

Cam Newton is on pace for the lowest completion percentage and Total QBR of his career this season, but the Panthers keep finding ways to win. Their regular-season win streak is now up to 10.

Cam Newton has a 94.1 Total QBR in the fourth quarter this season, second-best in the NFL. That's helping overcome his 37.1 QBR in the first three quarters.

Is Cam perfect? No  Does he know how to win games? yes

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by RiverwoodCLT

[cltbwimob]

WRT the continued Cam discussion- for the love of God in Heaven, just let it go.

Here just to placate everyone, Cam is either great or terrible or mediocre on every play.  Some plays he looks like a hall of fame quarterback, some plays he looks like he's never picked up a football, and some plays he just looks like a run of the mill quarterback, so all sides of this debate at some point in each game are correct in their observations of Cam.  However those who think Cam is not so great a quarterback are likely to pay special attention to every one of Cam's flaws and hardly notice when he does something right.  The opposite is true for big-time Cam fans.  But you know what? IT DOESN"T MATTER; the team is 8-0 and in commanding lead in our division.  Who cares if Cam is an elite QB or if he sucks, the team is still undefeated halfway through the season.   I'll take an 8-0 team with Cam Newton over a 6-2 team with Aaron Rodgers.   Cam is also very much a pillar of the community even if he isn't the greatest QB ever, and I feel fortunate that he is a Carolina Panther even if I do not always see the genius that other people see in his play.

These are conversations fit for a playground at recess, and I feel as if my IQ drops every time I open this thread now.  Can we please make this less about Cam, and more about the Carolina Panthers as a team?

[DMann]

Anyone think that Cleveland would like to have a quarterback like Cam?  

[ah59396]

WRT the continued Cam discussion- for the love of God in Heaven, just let it go.

Here just to placate everyone, Cam is either great or terrible or mediocre on every play.  Some plays he looks like a hall of fame quarterback, some plays he looks like he's never picked up a football, and some plays he just looks like a run of the mill quarterback, so all sides of this debate at some point in each game are correct in their observations of Cam.  However those who think Cam is not so great a quarterback are likely to pay special attention to every one of Cam's flaws and hardly notice when he does something right.  The opposite is true for big-time Cam fans.  But you know what? IT DOESN"T MATTER; the team is 8-0 and in commanding lead in our division.  Who cares if Cam is an elite QB or if he sucks, the team is still undefeated halfway through the season.   I'll take an 8-0 team with Cam Newton over a 6-2 team with Aaron Rodgers.   Cam is also very much a pillar of the community even if he isn't the greatest QB ever, and I feel fortunate that he is a Carolina Panther even if I do not always see the genius that other people see in his play.

These are conversations fit for a playground at recess, and I feel as if my IQ drops every time I open this thread now.  Can we please make this less about Cam, and more about the Carolina Panthers as a team?

I don't think that's fair at all.  No one that is arguing for Cam on here says he is perfect or elite.  I've already made a point to note that I think him being included in the MVP conversation is premature.  He can be inaccurate at times and baffles me occasionally with his throws.  But to say he is mediocre or worse is (as many of us have shown at this point) ridiculous.  That's what we are arguing against.  And again, as you've noted, we are 8-0.

[CLTProductions]

Anyone think that Cleveland would like to have a quarterback like Cam?  

No, because that would mean they would potentially be good. We don't know how to be good at football in Cleveland. Plus they would ruin him like that team has ruined every other player they've had since 1999.

[DMann]

No, because that would mean they would potentially be good. We don't know how to be good at football in Cleveland. Plus they would ruin him like that team has ruined every other player they've had since 1999.

Amen Brother!  My hometown team fell off my radar when Brian Sipe retired.  I was never really a big Bernie Kosar fan.

[cltbwimob]

 

I don't think that's fair at all.  No one that is arguing for Cam on here says he is perfect or elite.  I've already made a point to note that I think him being included in the MVP conversation is premature.  He can be inaccurate at times and baffles me occasionally with his throws.  But to say he is mediocre or worse is (as many of us have shown at this point) ridiculous.  That's what we are arguing against.  And again, as you've noted, we are 8-0.

I'm not really sure I understand what is so unfair about my post.  All I am really saying is that on every snap someone in either the pro-Cam or anti-Cam (or ambivalent-Cam) crowd is right, so no one here really has a monopoly on the truth about Cam.  Some plays, Cam looks like he is playing at the level of Tom Brady; some plays he looks as if he is playing at the level of an intramural flag football league; some plays he just looks like a standard quarterback in the NFL.  But no one has really shown anything here.  The only thing that has been done is one individual keeps saying that he is not a great quarterback, and a chorus of other individuals reject his claim (with some resorting to flaming).  However no one has provided real proof to substantiate either claim.  The only cold hard evidence that has been provided is someone early in the argument decided to throw in some stats, but that was roundly rejected because "stats don't show the whole picture".  When someone makes a claim that Cam is not a good quarterback, following it up with something like "dude do you even watch the games; he is awesome" or "he has a piss poor corps of receivers which is why his pass completion percentage is low" or "stats don't show the whole picture" is not really proof of his awesomeness, and saying it over and over again doesn't make it correct.  Some have even resorted to ad hominem attacks against a certain individual (i.e. accusing him of being racist) because he doesn't agree with the forum consensus that Cam is a good quarterback.  Are these the best arguments the pro-Cam crowd has to show that those in the anti-Cam or ambivalent-Cam crowd are clearly out of their minds?

The reason I personally said he was mediocre in the first place (and at this point I'm sorry I did) is because I believe the sum total of all of his plays since his rookie year if averaged would put him squarely in the middle of all starting NFL QBs that have played within the last 5 years.  One way to think of it is if an unbiased but qualified observer could go back and review every snap he's ever taken in the NFL,  rate them on a scale of 1-5 (with "1" being WTH were you thinking Cam and "5" being throw to Greg Olsen in the End Zone with less than a minute left to beat Seattle at Seattle), and average all the values he received for each play, I would expect the value of that average to be really close to a "3"-not terrible but not great either.  Sure Cam has been brilliant in the last four games, but that is not even proof that he is a great quarterback, or even a good quarterback.  It is a small sample of games which is not large enough to draw a definitive conclusion one way or the other.  Still it doesn't matter because Cam fits into the organization and he is probably the best QB in the league for the style of smash-mouth grind-it-out football that the Panthers play, and his presence is certainly a big part of the 8-0 record. 

I will remind everyone once again that the opening salvo in this argument was fired on Oct 5 and it is now Nov 11, and with all the insults, flaming, and various other proofs that Cam is indeed a good quarterback, I think it can be agreed upon that this is an argument fitting a group of third graders on the playground, not a bunch of 20 something-40 something adults.  Nevertheless here we are; let's celebrate how far we've come.

 

[ah59396]

I'm not really sure I understand what is so unfair about my post.  All I am really saying is that on every snap someone in either the pro-Cam or anti-Cam (or ambivalent-Cam) crowd is right, so no one here really has a monopoly on the truth about Cam.  Some plays, Cam looks like he is playing at the level of Tom Brady; some plays he looks as if he is playing at the level of an intramural flag football league; some plays he just looks like a standard quarterback in the NFL.  But no one has really shown anything here.  The only thing that has been done is one individual keeps saying that he is not a great quarterback, and a chorus of other individuals reject his claim (with some resorting to flaming).  However no one has provided real proof to substantiate either claim.  The only cold hard evidence that has been provided is someone early in the argument decided to throw in some stats, but that was roundly rejected because "stats don't show the whole picture".  When someone makes a claim that Cam is not a good quarterback, following it up with something like "dude do you even watch the games; he is awesome" or "he has a piss poor corps of receivers which is why his pass completion percentage is low" or "stats don't show the whole picture" is not really proof of his awesomeness, and saying it over and over again doesn't make it correct.  Some have even resorted to ad hominem attacks against a certain individual (i.e. accusing him of being racist) because he doesn't agree with the forum consensus that Cam is a good quarterback.  Are these the best arguments the pro-Cam crowd has to show that those in the anti-Cam or ambivalent-Cam crowd are clearly out of their minds?

The reason I personally said he was mediocre in the first place (and at this point I'm sorry I did) is because I believe the sum total of all of his plays since his rookie year if averaged would put him squarely in the middle of all starting NFL QBs that have played within the last 5 years.  One way to think of it is if an unbiased but qualified observer could go back and review every snap he's ever taken in the NFL,  rate them on a scale of 1-5 (with "1" being WTH were you thinking Cam and "5" being throw to Greg Olsen in the End Zone with less than a minute left to beat Seattle at Seattle), and average all the values he received for each play, I would expect the value of that average to be really close to a "3"-not terrible but not great either.  Sure Cam has been brilliant in the last four games, but that is not even proof that he is a great quarterback, or even a good quarterback.  It is a small sample of games which is not large enough to draw a definitive conclusion one way or the other.  Still it doesn't matter because Cam fits into the organization and he is probably the best QB in the league for the style of smash-mouth grind-it-out football that the Panthers play, and his presence is certainly a big part of the 8-0 record. 

I will remind everyone once again that the opening salvo in this argument was fired on Oct 5 and it is now Nov 11, and with all the insults, flaming, and various other proofs that Cam is indeed a good quarterback, I think it can be agreed upon that this is an argument fitting a group of third graders on the playground, not a bunch of 20 something-40 something adults.  Nevertheless here we are; let's celebrate how far we've come.

 

 

I mean, it's a message board.  What else do you want to do on here besides debate stuff?

[Durhamite]

WRT the continued Cam discussion- for the love of God in Heaven, just let it go.

Here just to placate everyone, Cam is either great or terrible or mediocre on every play.  Some plays he looks like a hall of fame quarterback, some plays he looks like he's never picked up a football, and some plays he just looks like a run of the mill quarterback, so all sides of this debate at some point in each game are correct in their observations of Cam.  However those who think Cam is not so great a quarterback are likely to pay special attention to every one of Cam's flaws and hardly notice when he does something right.  The opposite is true for big-time Cam fans.  But you know what? IT DOESN"T MATTER; the team is 8-0 and in commanding lead in our division.  Who cares if Cam is an elite QB or if he sucks, the team is still undefeated halfway through the season.   I'll take an 8-0 team with Cam Newton over a 6-2 team with Aaron Rodgers.   Cam is also very much a pillar of the community even if he isn't the greatest QB ever, and I feel fortunate that he is a Carolina Panther even if I do not always see the genius that other people see in his play.

These are conversations fit for a playground at recess, and I feel as if my IQ drops every time I open this thread now.  Can we please make this less about Cam, and more about the Carolina Panthers as a team?

The Panthers are about Cam Newton, and hopefully he stays healthy .  However when someone flippantly tosses around words like "mediocre" and "run of the mill" to describe his play.....that's just completely fkn crazy with a lack of appreciation for the game and the QB position.  Not intellectual IQ but a deficient football IQ.  I don't see the problem with the discussion....you can totally ignore this thread all together, problem solved.

[cltbwimob]

I mean, it's a message board.  What else do you want to do on here besides debate stuff?

Understand, and I love good debate just as much as anyone.  However good debate usually entails proofs to either support or refute claims and counter-claims.  Ad hominem attacks and just making claims and counter-claims with no real proof is not debate.  I guess my biggest problem here is someone was accused of being a racist just because they don't think that Cam is a good quarterback.  The guy who received that accusation has made absolutely zero references to Cam's race.  When something like that happens, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's no longer debate, and it has devolved into mud-slinging.

The Panthers are about Cam Newton, and hopefully he stays healthy .  However when someone flippantly tosses around words like "mediocre" and "run of the mill" to describe his play.....that's just completely fkn crazy with a lack of appreciation for the game and the QB position.  Not intellectual IQ but a deficient football IQ.  I don't see the problem with the discussion....you can totally ignore this thread all together, problem solved.

Thanks for letting me know what I can and can't do wrt this thread.  BTW, once upon a time, I played football.  And I always admired what QBs did because I knew I was never quick thinking enough to be one.  So to say someone like me, who has in the past claimed that Cam is mediocre, has no appreciation for the game or the QB position is a patently false statement.

Edited November 11, 2015 by cltbwimob

[ah59396]

Understand, and I love good debate just as much as anyone.  However good debate usually entails proofs to either support or refute claims and counter-claims.  Ad hominem attacks and just making claims and counter-claims with no real proof is not debate.  I guess my biggest problem here is someone was accused of being a racist just because they don't think that Cam is a good quarterback.  The guy who received that accusation has made absolutely zero references to Cam's race.  When something like that happens, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's no longer debate, and it has devolved into mud-slinging.

Thanks for letting me know what I can and can't do wrt this thread.  BTW, once upon a time, I played football.  And I always admired what QBs did because I knew I was never quick thinking enough to be one.  So to say someone like me, who has in the past claimed that Cam is mediocre, has no appreciation for the game or the QB position is a patently false statement.

Yeah man, I agree, there should be no ad hominem attacks, especially one as serious as calling someone a racist with nothing to back it up.  But the comment was ignored by everybody else because it was stupid, which was pretty much the appropriate reaction.  

Regarding your other point, the issue you're going to run into is that there is no definitive "proof" that you seek.  It's a completely subjective topic.  Are there objective statistics we can review?  Sure.  But the reality is that what we are doing is also a billion dollar industry on television, internet and in print.  Sitting around, debating back and forth with whatever straws we have to support what we believe.  If it was as easy as just pointing to one definitive stat, ESPN would be out of business tomorrow.  

Cam passes the eye test for me as an all around QB.  You can throw stats at me to prove your point and I can throw stats back you.  How a guy can be the most prolific running QB in history (well on pace for it at least) and also be a decent passer and only be considered mediocre, I'll never understand.  Especially on an 8-0 team with the 12th ranked offense by yardage and 7th by scoring.  It's beyond me, but whatever.  Agree to disagree.

[grodney]

Cam Newton was named NFC Offensive Player of the Week.  Congrats, Cam!

He completed 15 of 30 passes (50%).