Metro Orlando Airport News

[jrs2]

11 hours ago, aent said:

I'm honestly surprised that is news to anyone, why else would Atlanta make sense to be the busiest airport, by far, not even close? I don't think Atlanta is on the top of anyone's top destination desires....

No, I mean that even their connecting flights numbers are inflated.

[shardoon]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

No, I mean that even their connecting flights numbers are inflated.

Every connection involves an arrival and a departure. Each person counts as 2, and they never set foot outside the sterile area. 

[jrs2]

20 hours ago, shardoon said:

Every connection involves an arrival and a departure. Each person counts as 2, and they never set foot outside the sterile area. 

But in your roundtrip Caribbean example every person counted as 4... That's like two independent round trip flights, right? Home to MIA and MIA to Caribbean...family of 4, so in essence 8 + 8.

[shardoon]

8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

But in your roundtrip Caribbean example every person counted as 4... That's like two independent round trip flights, right? Home to MIA and MIA to Caribbean...family of 4, so in essence 8 + 8.

Correct. If you connect in Atlanta outbound, that's 2, then the return trip is another 2. So one round trip connect is a 4 passenger count for Atlanta. However your home airport, the airport that you went through ticketing, the TSA line, and eventually the baggage claim on return will only log you as 2 (departing outbound and arriving on return).

[jrs2]

this is a good schematic of the current and future phases ala Terminal C.  It shows Phase 1x as well, the other 4 gates plus the enclosed walk path to the intermodal center.  Is the current Landside terminal going to be the only landside for this phase plus the next phase(s) of this side (the west facing terminal)? I ask b/c the choke points will be great if they all funnel their way through to the same landside.

I also included a full buildout diagram/model.  I guess they'll be relying heavily on the APMs

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by jrs2

[shardoon]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

this is a good schematic of the current and future phases ala Terminal C.  It shows Phase 1x as well, the other 4 gates plus the enclosed walk path to the intermodal center.  Is the current Landside terminal going to be the only landside for this phase plus the next phase(s) of this side (the west facing terminal)? I ask b/c the choke points will be great if they all funnel their way through to the same landside.

I also included a full buildout diagram/model.  I guess they'll be relying heavily on the APMs

 

I tend to disagree with choke points. If done right, it will work smooth. Each side fully built out is 60 gates. No different than what the North terminal handles on each side fairly smoothly. As far as the APM, they really better get a start on it asap for phase 2. They have no choice, especially if they abandon moving walkways. Heck, Detroit has moving walkways in addition to an APM, and that airport was built over 20 years ago....... how can they design properly and MCO cannot?

Edited May 10, 2023 by shardoon

[HankStrong]

I typed this:

I know it's just a rendering, but having the APM go all the way around the new complex and dead-end instead of just going the few hundred extra feet and come back directly is such a waste of time. 

*ah-ha moment by looking closer*

Then I realized this APM isn't connected to the one that goes back to TA/TB.  This would be a totally separate APM that just goes around the loop for TC/TD.  It looks like a short 6 station half-circle.

[codypet]

17 hours ago, jrs2 said:

this is a good schematic of the current and future phases ala Terminal C.  It shows Phase 1x as well, the other 4 gates plus the enclosed walk path to the intermodal center.  Is the current Landside terminal going to be the only landside for this phase plus the next phase(s) of this side (the west facing terminal)? I ask b/c the choke points will be great if they all funnel their way through to the same landside.

I also included a full buildout diagram/model.  I guess they'll be relying heavily on the APMs

 

 

Hey! You can see the proposed Sunrail station in this rendering.  Just to the east of Brightline.

[shardoon]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

I typed this:

I know it's just a rendering, but having the APM go all the way around the new complex and dead-end instead of just going the few hundred extra feet and come back directly is such a waste of time. 

*ah-ha moment by looking closer*

Then I realized this APM isn't connected to the one that goes back to TA/TB.  This would be a totally separate APM that just goes around the loop for TC/TD.  It looks like a short 6 station half-circle.

Just a comment on the renderings....the Terminal C/D APM looks like they are having dead ends and not having a complete circle. Wouldn't it be cheaper to just build the complete circle so you do not have to have complex lane changing systems at the ends? Maybe I'm wrong? Not sure.

Also, is there any possible way of having an APM connect all the sterile areas of the North airsides to the sterile areas of the south terminal complex? Probably not, but that's why I'm not a fan of airsides.

[codypet]

I'm also fairly certain there's going to be a 3rd mid-crossfield taxiway.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

Hey! You can see the proposed Sunrail station in this rendering.  Just to the east of Brightline.

I thought the Sunrail platform would go directly into the Intermodal building and not off to the side...

How can the east airside concourse not have a skylight strip over those 6 gates at all?  Airsides 1 & 3 were retrofitted that way because they weren't "good enough" compared to Airsides 2 & 4.  So, what, now, not having a skylight over same in Terminal C is good enough?   $$$

[codypet]

22 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I thought the Sunrail platform would go directly into the Intermodal building and not off to the side...

How can the east airside concourse not have a skylight strip over those 6 gates at all?  Airsides 1 & 3 were retrofitted that way because they weren't "good enough" compared to Airsides 2 & 4.  So, what, now, not having a skylight over same in Terminal C is good enough?   $$$

Yea the plan was always off to the side and not share a lobby or platfrom with BL.  That might change in the future, but this is the plan I've seen tossed around since 2013.  I've been through the reasons why it was that way in the past, but what makes me ponder is all that bridge for the BL tracks heading south to the maintenance building.

[jrs2]

16 minutes ago, codypet said:

Yea the plan was always off to the side and not share a lobby or platfrom with BL.  That might change in the future, but this is the plan I've seen tossed around since 2013.  I've been through the reasons why it was that way in the past, but what makes me ponder is all that bridge for the BL tracks heading south to the maintenance building.

so the Sunrail platform will be opposite that drive-up to the Intermodal?  I thought they said that the Intermodal was being built to be able to house three train systems?  And that the Sunrail space would be where dirt currently is way underneath between BL and the APM.

[codypet]

The 3rd rail system was at the time Maglev coming from the north just north of the Sunrail platform.  Hence the extra box under JFB. Unsure what the plan is now.

[jrs2]

28 minutes ago, codypet said:

The 3rd rail system was at the time Maglev coming from the north just north of the Sunrail platform.  Hence the extra box under JFB. Unsure what the plan is now.

So, that third Box under The JFB is assuming "Maglev" or equivalent is coming in from the north.  I assumed Sunrail would come in from the south like BL, but end at the Intermodal, and maybe use BL's tracks, right?

Also, in the Google satellite view, if you look at the Intermodal and spot the double BL tracks, there is another platform or rail bridge to the left (west of it) that is elevated.  What system is that for?

Edited May 10, 2023 by jrs2

[codypet]

6 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

So, that third Box under The JFB is assuming "Maglev" or equivalent is coming in from the north.  I assumed Sunrail would come in from the south like BL, but end at the Intermodal, and maybe use BL's tracks, right?

Also, in the Google satellite view, if you look at the Intermodal and spot the double BL tracks, there is another platform or rail bridge to the left (west of it) that is elevated.  What system is that for?

Maybe or maybe not using BL's tracks.

The other platform is for some Nona connector APM but details were very very fuzzy on that.

[HankStrong]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

Maybe or maybe not using BL's tracks.

The other platform is for some Nona connector APM but details were very very fuzzy on that.

It was for the Maglev, but you think it's a Nona APM now?  First I've heard of that, but cool if true.

[codypet]

16 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

It was for the Maglev, but you think it's a Nona APM now?  First I've heard of that, but cool if true.

Two different stations.  Maglev was on the east side of BL north of Sunrail.  Nona APM was on the west side of BL but it was very very conceptual. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by codypet

[HankStrong]

Since trains are my thing and airports aren't, can someone confirm what I'm saying?

I believe there are currently 4 runways at MCO: 17L/35R (the short one ~9,000' long), 17R/35L (~10,000' long), 18L/36R, & 18R/36L (both ~12,000' long) 

The 2 longer ones being the only ones that can handle the jumbo jets?  They look wider, too, which is where my assumption comes from.

 

My question is:

At what point with Terminals C/D do we need more runways?  I googled it and O'Hare has 8 runways, DFW has 7, and several have 6 including Denver & Detroit.  Is 4 enough?

[HankStrong]

Does anyone know why Terminal A2 is missing a leg?  It's like 8 or 9 gates never got built.  I wonder why C was started before A was finished.

Edited May 10, 2023 by HankStrong

[jrs2]

14 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Since trains are my thing and airports aren't, can someone confirm what I'm saying?

I believe there are currently 4 runways at MCO: 17L/35R (the short one ~9,000' long), 17R/35L (~10,000' long), 18L/36R, & 18R/36L (both ~12,000' long) 

The 2 longer ones being the only ones that can handle the jumbo jets?  They look wider, too, which is where my assumption comes from.

 

My question is:

At what point with Terminals C/D do we need more runways?  I googled it and O'Hare has 8 runways, DFW has 7, and several have 6 including Denver & Detroit.  Is 4 enough?

Hartsfield had 4 parallel runways up until a few years ago when they expanded the airport property across the expressway to the south.  Now they have 5; I flew in on that runway once; it's way out there.

O'Hare historically had 4 runways to the north of their terminals and 2 to the south.  Then by the late '90's they started reconfiguring everything to where now it is almost unrecognizable- cargo expansion being part of the reason why.

I believe LAX has 4 parallel runways still and they rank No.2 busiest last year or in 2019 pre-covid meltdown.

MCO can get away with 4 I think.

The two longest runways at MCO to the west of the terminals were from when it was McCoy AFB...built to handle the B-52's.  However the runways to the east can handle jumbo jets; I've seen Virgin 747's and BA 747's land on them for Airside 4.

O'Hare...well, Chicago is Chicago; they always have to have MORE; They expanded McCormick Place so that it would be the undisputed largest CC in the world.    O'Hare used to be the busiest.  However, even though they rank No.2, they do have more gates than Hartsfield (198 to 193), and if you zoom in and see how they stuck them in to the existing terminals, it's kind of funny; like they spent those dollars just to be able to say that their terminal is the largest in the world even though not the busiest.  SO O'Hare has 8 runways now.  Do they need them?  Dunno. Maybe cargo traffic is a lot.

[shardoon]

26 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Since trains are my thing and airports aren't, can someone confirm what I'm saying?

I believe there are currently 4 runways at MCO: 17L/35R (the short one ~9,000' long), 17R/35L (~10,000' long), 18L/36R, & 18R/36L (both ~12,000' long) 

The 2 longer ones being the only ones that can handle the jumbo jets?  They look wider, too, which is where my assumption comes from.

 

My question is:

At what point with Terminals C/D do we need more runways?  I googled it and O'Hare has 8 runways, DFW has 7, and several have 6 including Denver & Detroit.  Is 4 enough?

Not really necessary. LAX has 4. SFO has 4, but they intersect. It is all about distance between runways on whether you can use them simultaneously for takeoff and landings at the same time. Or having one ready for takeoff while the runway next to it can have a plane landing. I believe at MCO, we have enough distance between 3 of the 4 to have 3 simultaneous takeoffs or landings go on at once, which really is not needed. A lot of the other airports have runways that intersect or are too close to each other, so you really do not get any major added volume. 

I will part with an example that will put your mind at ease that MCO has more than enough runways.......... Heathrow has ONLY 2 and saw 61.6 million passengers in 2022. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by shardoon

[codypet]

44 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Does anyone know why Terminal A2 is missing a leg?  It's like 8 or 9 gates never got built.  I wonder why C was started before A was finished.

50 minutes ago, HankStrong said:

Since trains are my thing and airports aren't, can someone confirm what I'm saying?

I believe there are currently 4 runways at MCO: 17L/35R (the short one ~9,000' long), 17R/35L (~10,000' long), 18L/36R, & 18R/36L (both ~12,000' long) 

The 2 longer ones being the only ones that can handle the jumbo jets?  They look wider, too, which is where my assumption comes from.

 

My question is:

At what point with Terminals C/D do we need more runways?  I googled it and O'Hare has 8 runways, DFW has 7, and several have 6 including Denver & Detroit.  Is 4 enough?

The west Runways are the OG Air Base Runways, with the east ones being added in the late 80's/early 90's and around 00.  There are plans to extend all of them (except the easternmost which is bounded by the lake on the south and the highway on the north) when Terminals C &D get built.

[bic]

1 hour ago, HankStrong said:

At what point with Terminals C/D do we need more runways?  I googled it and O'Hare has 8 runways, DFW has 7, and several have 6 including Denver & Detroit.  Is 4 enough?

Runway placement is primarily dictated by prevailing winds at the airport's location. Hubs like DEN, ORD & DFW experience strong winds from different directions at different times of the year and thus have constructed parallel runways to prevent cross-wind operations. LAX features a similar runway layout to MCO given that it has two parallel runways on either side of a central terminal complex but oriented east-west thanks to the on-shore winds it sees at its location directly on the ocean and no cross-wind runways. It managed to support upwards of 88 million passengers prior to the pandemic.

[jrs2]

Check this out:

https://orlandoairports.net/site/uploads/O-and-D-Rank-202206.pdf

Busiest O&D airports in the US.  I didn't have time to convert the pdf to a jpeg.

Ending 12mos in June 2022, MCO is No.2 behind LAX.  Impressive.  Terminal C didn't open until September 2022.  And, since then, new routes have started for JetBlue, among other new routes for other airlines at the other older gates. I'd like to see this same chart this year.