Michigan Street/Midtown Neighborhood Development

[GRDadof3]

Anyone else think these numbers sound skewed?

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20150607/NEWS/306079987/planners-seek-to-make-grand-rapids-medical-mile-a-healthy-place-to

"28,000 people ride commuter shuttles on Michigan each month?" Are they counting rides or unique riders?

"20,000 people live in neighborhoods North and South of Michigan Street?" How far North and South? I think the few census tracts surrounding Michigan Street have about 3000 or so.

"50,000 researchers, faculty, staff and students work and study on Medical Mile?" VARI, probably the biggest of the bunch, only has what, 300 or 400 researchers? MSU doesn't even have 100. MSU's med school size is a couple hundred students. Maybe they added one too many zeroes?

And then Zimmerman Volk is back with their own version of voodoo real estate math, not based on any market studies that local housing and development experts are consulted on. Oy vey.

THIS is how real estate bubbles are created: inflated returns and data (lighthousedave).. They could just show their sources but they wont, partcularly ZV (the previous dda director used them and became skeptical).

[MJLO]

Anyone else think these numbers sound skewed?

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20150607/NEWS/306079987/planners-seek-to-make-grand-rapids-medical-mile-a-healthy-place-to

"28,000 people ride commuter shuttles on Michigan each month?" Are they counting rides or unique riders?

"20,000 people live in neighborhoods North and South of Michigan Street?" How far North and South? I think the few census tracts surrounding Michigan Street have about 3000 or so.

"50,000 researchers, faculty, staff and students work and study on Medical Mile?" VARI, probably the biggest of the bunch, only has what, 300 or 400 researchers? MSU doesn't even have 100. MSU's med school size is a couple hundred students. Maybe they added one too many zeroes?

And then Zimmerman Volk is back with their own version of voodoo real estate math, not based on any market studies that local housing and development experts are consulted on. Oy vey.

THIS is how real estate bubbles are created: inflated returns and data (lighthousedave).. They could just show their sources but they wont, partcularly ZV (the previous dda director used them and became skeptical).

 

If you created a 1 mile radius at Michigan and Fuller you cold get to 20k people but I dunno how genuine it would be.

[wmrharris]

The 50,000 number is likely derived from the Corridor Report's list of anchor institutions:

GVSU: 3,300 students & employees

GRCC 18,700 students & employees

MSU: 360 students, 125 employees

Spectrum 16,000

St Mary's (Trinity Health) 2,500

VAI ~300

 

Between them, that's slightly more than 41,000. Are there another 9-10k in service and light industry? Perhaps.

[Veloise]

If you created a 1 mile radius at Michigan and Fuller you cold get to 20k people but I dunno how genuine it would be.

 

http://onthemap.ces.census.gov/

 

While the legend suggests that these are jobs, my data selection was for "homes." This depicts the population of workers living within the 1-mile radius.

 

 

 

Employment

[jas49503]

Anyone else think these numbers sound skewed?

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20150607/NEWS/306079987/planners-seek-to-make-grand-rapids-medical-mile-a-healthy-place-to

"28,000 people ride commuter shuttles on Michigan each month?" Are they counting rides or unique riders?

"20,000 people live in neighborhoods North and South of Michigan Street?" How far North and South? I think the few census tracts surrounding Michigan Street have about 3000 or so.

"50,000 researchers, faculty, staff and students work and study on Medical Mile?" VARI, probably the biggest of the bunch, only has what, 300 or 400 researchers? MSU doesn't even have 100. MSU's med school size is a couple hundred students. Maybe they added one too many zeroes?

And then Zimmerman Volk is back with their own version of voodoo real estate math, not based on any market studies that local housing and development experts are consulted on. Oy vey.

THIS is how real estate bubbles are created: inflated returns and data (lighthousedave).. They could just show their sources but they wont, partcularly ZV (the previous dda director used them and became skeptical).

I think the numbers are pretty accurate. most of the staff at spectrum take a shuttle to and from work. this includes the hospital and all the workers at 25/35 michigan.  for every student, researcher, physician there are probably 10 other workers of one sort or another.  that estimate may be conservative.

 

when you include faculty of MSU that includes most of the physicans on staff at spectrum through the various residencies.  this obviously numbers in the hundreds and dwarfs the number of researchers at van andel.  

[GRDadof3]

The 50,000 number is likely derived from the Corridor Report's list of anchor institutions:

GVSU: 3,300 students & employees

GRCC 18,700 students & employees

MSU: 360 students, 125 employees

Spectrum 16,000

St Mary's (Trinity Health) 2,500

VAI ~300

 

Between them, that's slightly more than 41,000. Are there another 9-10k in service and light industry? Perhaps.

 

 

GVSU: 3300 students and employees on medical mile? In the health sciences department? 

GRCC is not on medical mile. They have one medical building that is across the street from Spectrum, but that's it. Including the entire GRCC population in this count is disingenuous at best.

MSU: makes sense

Saint Mary's? You might as well say the Van Andel Arena is on medical mile. 

VAI: probably right.

 

But what does your intuition tell you? 50,000 people on medical mile? C'mon, that's how many people worked in the world trade centers, 2 buildings 100 some stories tall. 

 

All data is suspect until it is validated. Let's see the data, corridor study people. 

[MJLO]

I agree with you,  It sounds more like they are doing a study on Grand Rapids CBD more than the medical mile.

[jas49503]

welcome to research.  this sounds like a typical paper supporting the agenda of the authors, and while the numbers may be real, the endpoints measured as well as the area included can be chosen by the authors to support any conclusion that they want. of course the same thing is done in business with all these pro formas that are generated.  they should call them what they really are, wild-ass guesses put to paper but I guess pro forma takes up less space.

 

upon further reflection I think that only the shuttle numbers are accurate and that is rides, not riders.  there are a large number of people working in 25/35 michigan and lemmon-holton cancer center though.  if they define the neighborhoods as all the neighborhoods bordering the mile, and include the entire neighborhood then that is probably accurate as well. midtown, heritage hill, downtown, and belknap lookout probably have 20k people in them when the entire neighborhood is included and you round up to the nearest 10k to give a nice round number.

 

maybe they are figuring a literal mile stretching from the river and running east.  that would capture a lot more people than just the medical institutions.  

[GRDadof3]

welcome to research.  this sounds like a typical paper supporting the agenda of the authors, and while the numbers may be real, the endpoints measured as well as the area included can be chosen by the authors to support any conclusion that they want. of course the same thing is done in business with all these pro formas that are generated.  they should call them what they really are, wild-ass guesses put to paper but I guess pro forma takes up less space.

 

upon further reflection I think that only the shuttle numbers are accurate and that is rides, not riders.  there are a large number of people working in 25/35 michigan and lemmon-holton cancer center though.  if they define the neighborhoods as all the neighborhoods bordering the mile, and include the entire neighborhood then that is probably accurate as well. midtown, heritage hill, downtown, and belknap lookout probably have 20k people in them when the entire neighborhood is included and you round up to the nearest 10k to give a nice round number.

 

maybe they are figuring a literal mile stretching from the river and running east.  that would capture a lot more people than just the medical institutions.  

 

 

This is a major study too, being done by the Planning Dept for a complete rewrite of the master plan involving the areas in question. It's not for marketing purposes or anything like that. It will affect federal grants for transportation, housing policy, parking, the current residents there, and a lot of other planning and design decisions. 

 

It would be really nice to see the data and methodology. I know from experience you won't get that from Zimmerman Volk. Why the city still uses that group is beyond me. 

[arcturus]

Must the be same outfit which estimated ridership for the Silver Line.

[GR_Urbanist]

I'm glad I'm not the only one hat was confused about those numbers.

 

If 50k actually were in that area, it would FAR different than it does now. It would be a dense as a street in Manhattan and 100% built-out. Certainly not the still underused and half empty plots of land that still make up a good portion of the area.

[GRDadof3]

I'm glad I'm not the only one hat was confused about those numbers.

 

If 50k actually were in that area, it would FAR different than it does now. It would be a dense as a street in Manhattan and 100% built-out. Certainly not the still underused and half empty plots of land that still make up a good portion of the area.

 

Going back to the World Trade Center complex, it was 13.4 Million square feet of office space before it was destroyed. 50,000 workers.

 

There's about 1.7 Million square feet of general office space in all of downtown Grand Rapids (whatever NAI Commercial considers the core business district), around 15% the size of the World Trade Center. 

 

Just sayin. 

[gvsusean]

Going back to the World Trade Center complex, it was 13.4 Million square feet of office space before it was destroyed. 50,000 workers.

 

There's about 1.7 Million square feet of general office space in all of downtown Grand Rapids (whatever NAI Commercial considers the core business district), around 15% the size of the World Trade Center. 

 

Just sayin. 

Thats so crazy, that a pair of towers in NYC have more office space than all of DTGR... really makes GR feel insignificant haha

[GRDadof3]

Thats so crazy, that a pair of towers in NYC have more office space than all of DTGR... really makes GR feel insignificant haha

 

Not insignificant, but just to give an illustration of what a complex of 50,000 workers looks like. Now does it make sense that 50,000 people work on Medical Mile? 

[MJLO]

Not insignificant, but just to give an illustration of what a complex of 50,000 workers looks like. Now does it make sense that 50,000 people work on Medical Mile? 

 

Is it possible if you include the Mile in the CBD?   I thought about 20k worked on the hill.

[GRDadof3]

Is it possible if you include the Mile in the CBD?   I thought about 20k worked on the hill.

 

The Michigan Corridor study is saying that 50,000 work on "medical mile" alone. It also says that over 5000 housing units can be added along medical mile in the next 5 years. That's where the breakdown seems to be happening.

[Plainfielder]

I see they tore down a couple of homes at 404 Michigan Street just before the Spectrum Health fleet shuttle services building. Wolverine Building Group is doing the demolition and have construction signs posted on the fencing surrounding the area. Anyone have an idea for what's planned there?

[GRDadof3]

I see they tore down a couple of homes at 404 Michigan Street just before the Spectrum Health fleet shuttle services building. Wolverine Building Group is doing the demolition and have construction signs posted on the fencing surrounding the area. Anyone have an idea for what's planned there?

 

Parking.

 

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/14217-health-hillmedical-mile-developments/?p=1335074

[Allison Slater]

Before anyone cries about the parking, GVSU I think is planning another large building on a nearby parking lot.  This lot is to replace a portion of the one being lost, resulting in a net loss of parking.

[GRDadof3]

Wasn't sure where to put this, but recently in Chicago they opened the new elevated park "The 606" which runs through the near West Side of Chicago near Humboldt Park, an area badly underserved with public and green spaces. 

Edit: they should have made it wider to safely and comfortably accommodate both cyclists and pedestrians. It looks like they had room...

Was trying to think of a corridor for a good candidate for this in GR. The only one I could think of was the rail line that runs just North of Michigan St behind Flat Landers. There could then be a dedicated lane on Houseman (?) that could connect to I believe a planned cycle-track on Fountain Street. The new rail-to-trail would then connect to Riverside Park/Monroe Avenue area and could run all the way out to downtown Ada and the bike trails beyond. 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Michigan+St+NE+%26+Houseman+Ave+NE,+Grand+Rapids,+MI+49503/@42.9610153,-85.6471629,1242a,20y,41.35t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x8819ada9697e8f0d:0xe05e00e872034cd0

 

The beauty of this corridor is that it would serve the Midtown and Eastown area, linking it to Monroe North and Riverside Park/Creston, pump more use into the park along College Street and the rail corridor, and increase recreational riding throughout the entire area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GRDadof3]

Your link is a little messed up.

Sorry, it's just a link to google maps at Michigan and Houseman:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Michigan+St+NE+%26+Houseman+Ave+NE,+Grand+Rapids,+MI+49503/@42.9704658,-85.6477101,17z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x8819ada9697e8f0d:0xe05e00e872034cd0

 

[jas49503]

there is a request by third coast development to rezone several parcels on Michigan, where Proos is located, to traditional business/mixed use.  I don't have any other details, just what came to me in the mail for the zoning meeting.

[HavingAhoot]

I recently drove passed the old B&B distributing and saw that work is taking off for the new Vender mill cider location. Cant wait!

Word is it will be open fall..... last I saw

[joeDowntown]

Drove by the 616 development yesterday and it is definitely going to change that area. A lot of density being added on that corner. It's like the Birch Lodge won the lottery with this building being built right next door.

Joe

[HavingAhoot]

Not super exciting news but the Wendy's on Michigan street will start construction next week some time and will be shut-down for 3 months to make a modern looking Wendy's like this.