The SoBro | 32 stories 345 ft | 3rd & Demonbreun

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Thinking about the rumor that 10 floors (of parking) may be added to the SoBro, I wondered what the ultimate height in feet might be.

 

 

 

The first proposal was to be 29 floors at 395 ft. The floor to floor distance for the floors containing apartments figures to be 11.3 ft.

 

 

 

Apparently (unofficially) a rendering of a 33 story building was later released of a plan designed by the architects who designed the 86 story, 859 ft. Aqua Condos in Chicago. The 434' height on the diagram cannot be confirmed as official.

 

 

 

The Aqua in Chicago.

 

 

The Aqua has less than a 10' floor to floor height.

 

So....if the new architects use their formula for floor to floor (ftf), the revised 33 story building would be in the 330' tall range. If the original 11.3 ' ftf is applied, the building  would reach about 440'

 

Now, talk of putting the building on top of 10 floors of above ground parking means the building would increase in height by 106', meaning the total height could be as 'small' as 435' or as tall as 546'.

 

This would significantly impact not only the SoBro skyline, but the entire downtown.

 

My unofficial revised rendering (with apologies).

 

 

And against the whole skyline without the additional 10 floors (again unofficial).

 

According to this link, its 82 floors and not 86. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_(skyscraper)

Interesting to say the least.

They are based on commuting patterns. It's not something that cities can exactly pick and choose. Plus, with so many rural areas struggling, residents there have to look to the larger cities for jobs. It's also worth mentioning that commuters in these counties don't have to commute to Nashville. Some might have jobs in the suburbs or exurbs. Most folks in Shelbyville aren't driving to Nashville. If they leave the county, they're most likely headed to Murfreesboro.

 

Same with Lawrenceburg. They're not driving to Nashville....they're driving to Columbia and Spring Hill, which are a more manageable distance.

 

 

I'm not saying I completely agree with the methodology (I would rather see it separated out into Census tracts, rather than using county totals -- especially when you consider the wide variance in size of counties across the nation).

 

In Nashville's case, a lot of the reason for the relatively large size of our metro has to do with isolation. There aren't any sizable cities (not going to count Clarksville) within 100 miles in every direction. In a lot of cases, 150-200 miles. On top of that, of those cities within 100-200 miles, we're the largest...so people in the in-between areas are more likely to use our city's amenities (shopping/dining options/entertainment/airport/etc) than another city. In other words, our sphere of influence is larger geographically than a lot of other cities our size.

 

It's not a popularity contest, John. It's a numbers game.

Never said it was a popularity contest at all. In fact these numbers are inflated to get more money from the Department of Transportation for projects.

[UTgrad09]

Never said it was a popularity contest at all. In fact these numbers are inflated to get more money from the Department of Transportation for projects.

 

How are they inflated? Do they use some sort of different methodology when tabulating Nashville's metro numbers compared to other cities?

[volsfanwill]

In Nashville's case, a lot of the reason for the relatively large size of our metro has to do with isolation. There aren't any sizable cities (not going to count Clarksville) within 100 miles in every direction. In a lot of cases, 150-200 miles. On top of that, of those cities within 100-200 miles, we're the largest...so people in the in-between areas are more likely to use our city's amenities (shopping/dining options/entertainment/airport/etc) than another city. In other words, our sphere of influence is larger geographically than a lot of other cities our size.

I agree that people use Nashville from a much larger area because of a lack of sizable cities.   My family lives in Obion county, extreme North West TN, when I was little they would shop in Memphis, but over the last 15 years highway 22 to I-40 was widened to 4 lanes, so shopping in Nashville became more convenient. Now with 840 open in Williamson county, they can get to cool springs in about 2 and a half hours when it used to take over 3. so that is where they now go. Technically the closest shopping area is Paducha Kentucky but we havent been there in years.  

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

How are they inflated? Do they use some sort of different methodology when tabulating Nashville's metro numbers compared to other cities?

No, but they are trying to get every number they can to bump up numbers for federal dollars.

[UTgrad09]

No, but they are trying to get every number they can to bump up numbers for federal dollars.

 

Who is "they"?

[samsonh]

No, but they are trying to get every number they can to bump up numbers for federal dollars.

So you are saying every single one of them is inflated. Which means they are comparable

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Who is "they"?

 

 

So you are saying every single one of them is inflated. Which means they are comparable

JHC, I am not going to belabor the point. When municipalities report their population numbers to the federal government, they do so to get money for federally funded programs that fund projects based on population density. If Nashville reports that 1.7 million people will use said funding for certain programs, they will get the money as opposed to reporting Nashville has a population of 610,000+ in Davidson County alone and thus  get less money. The state, when applying for grants, will create MSA's and CSA's to get that funding. 20 years ago the MSA only included counties that bordered with Davidson, and at that time they did not count all 8. The state did not include mostly rural populations which in many cases did not use services in Nashville, Davidson County.

 

They also report these numbers to frankly, seem bigger and more metropolitan.

 

In other words, I would not always believe these projections. My wife worked for the census, and the way they were instructed to count people at times seemed a bit ridiculous. What the state counted as a dwelling was sometimes not a dwelling at all, and there were a lot of dead people appearing on the rolls.

 

Enough of this, I thought we were discussing The Sobro and the built environment, not demographic studies?

[UTgrad09]

The state, when applying for grants, will create MSA's and CSA's to get that funding. 20 years ago the MSA only included counties that bordered with Davidson, and at that time they did not count all 8. The state did not include mostly rural populations which in many cases did not use services in Nashville, Davidson County.

 

Um, no. The state does not create MSA's and CSA's. 

 

Suggested reading: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/fedreg_2010/06282010_metro_standards-Complete.pdf

 

If you'd like, I'll link you to the commuting numbers, though it is a massive file, and you'll have to do the math yourself.

 

 

And 20 years ago, the suburbs started adding massive amounts of jobs. Is it really inconceivable that the adjacent counties have residents that commute to our suburbs?

 

 

I understand if you have an issue with the way metro are defined or calculated. But this isn't some 'Nashville' or 'Tennessee' thing that is about chest puffing or shameless boosterism. Look around at a lot of the other cities....metro areas have been growing in geographic size everywhere. It's not that *we* are inflating the numbers. It's that sprawl in America has created massive metro regions and long range commuters.

 

 

You never seem to miss an opportunity to take a jab at Nashville, even when it's not necessary.

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Um, no. The state does not create MSA's and CSA's. 

 

Suggested reading: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/assets/fedreg_2010/06282010_metro_standards-Complete.pdf

 

If you'd like, I'll link you to the commuting numbers, though it is a massive file, and you'll have to do the math yourself.

 

 

And 20 years ago, the suburbs started adding massive amounts of jobs. Is it really inconceivable that the adjacent counties have residents that commute to our suburbs?

 

 

I understand if you have an issue with the way metro are defined or calculated. But this isn't some 'Nashville' or 'Tennessee' thing that is about chest puffing or shameless boosterism. Look around at a lot of the other cities....metro areas have been growing in geographic size everywhere. It's not that *we* are inflating the numbers. It's that sprawl in America has created massive metro regions and long range commuters.

 

 

You never seem to miss an opportunity to take a jab at Nashville, even when it's not necessary.

Well, I don't always jab Nashville my friend, but believe me living here is out of economics, not choice! In regards to the numbers, I am just relaying what has been told to me. I am no expert, but I find it odd these numbers change quite frequently and different numbers are reported by different sources. In any case, with these numbers you are making a point. If we are indeed at the numbers you cite, then we should have 10 Sobro's going up at one time! With that many people, we should easily fill those buildings.

 

To bring this back to a built environment discussion, and not a demographics class, there is no conceivable reason for so many delay's with this project when the demand is there for more downtown units. I know of an agent who  has 30+ people waiting on downtown units. He is the one who told me Signature may be back in play.

 

Regardless, I am still frustrated with how slow the process is here in Nashville to get anything done. The Sobro should have broken ground a year ago as condo's and the building would have been sold out by now.

 

And in regards to Nashville, it deserves criticism. Nashville has lagged behind for decades and we have a mayor that is more interested in tourists rather than residents. I can count how many times the mayor has made it to East Nashville since I moved here a year ago. Zero, Nada. Never. It's because we are not a tourist destination. Believe me if Tony were building the Sobro for tourists, Dean would have helped him built it by now.

Edited May 29, 2013 by 5th & Main Urbanite

[Hey_Hey]

 

Regardless, I am still frustrated with how slow the process is here in Nashville to get anything done. The Sobro should have broken ground a year ago as condo's and the building would have been sold out by now.

 

Unfortunately for development, demand is only part of the equation. We are slowly emerging from the worst credit market since the Great Depression, and no one could get money for anything. It doesn't just hit big developments either. There has been pent up demand for single family developments in Nashville for the last couple of years, but the credit markets have largely kept these developments in the planning stages.

There's also the matter of the potential revenue for the developers of the condos. If the Sobro was built and being marketed right now, I don't think they'd be able to recoup their development costs even if they if they sold 100% of the units. The median price for condos in Nashville tanked and wouldn't support new construction. Tony might be able to sell all of his units, but if he loses money on each transaction then it obviously doesn't make sense for him to go forward.

IMO, the lack of condo construction has nothing to do with the attitude of nashville developers, the city, or the people. It has everything to do with national and individual economic decisions.

[samsonh]

Well, I don't always jab Nashville my friend, but believe me living here is out of economics, not choice! In regards to the numbers, I am just relaying what has been told to me. I am no expert, but I find it odd these numbers change quite frequently and different numbers are reported by different sources. In any case, with these numbers you are making a point. If we are indeed at the numbers you cite, then we should have 10 Sobro's going up at one time! With that many people, we should easily fill those buildings.

 

To bring this back to a built environment discussion, and not a demographics class, there is no conceivable reason for so many delay's with this project when the demand is there for more downtown units. I know of an agent who  has 30+ people waiting on downtown units. He is the one who told me Signature may be back in play.

 

Regardless, I am still frustrated with how slow the process is here in Nashville to get anything done. The Sobro should have broken ground a year ago as condo's and the building would have been sold out by now.

 

And in regards to Nashville, it deserves criticism. Nashville has lagged behind for decades and we have a mayor that is more interested in tourists rather than residents. I can count how many times the mayor has made it to East Nashville since I moved here a year ago. Zero, Nada. Never. It's because we are not a tourist destination. Believe me if Tony were building the Sobro for tourists, Dean would have helped him built it by now.

 

I think you need to take a step back. I am sure the mayor is quite proud of what is happening in East Nashville. UTGrad was just pointing out that there is no big conspiracy to inflate numbers, smart people take lots of time figuring out how many people live where, because many people depend on those numbers to make very important economic decisions.

[UTgrad09]

If we are indeed at the numbers you cite, then we should have 10 Sobro's going up at one time! With that many people, we should easily fill those buildings.

 

If you were talking about an Asian city, or perhaps a South American or Canadian city of that size, then sure, 10 SoBros it is! But you'd be hard pressed to find an American city around our size. Heck...move up a city class. Still nowhere near 10 SoBros. Heck...lower the standard to 300 feet and Seattle doesn't even have 10 towers that are primarily residential. Seattle is twice as big as we are, and certainly no slouch in the skyline department.

Nashville hasn't seen the residential high rise boom that our contemporaries such as Austin and Charlotte have, and neither one of them has 10 SoBros. And they are the exceptions, not the rule.

As much as I would love to see a greater skyline and more residents downtown, we have to balance our dreams with the reality that we face. Only a fraction of our residents could afford to live in a posh high rise apartment or condo, and only a fraction of those would actually want to.

I do think there is some demand for more high rise options...but it's more like 1 Mondrian and 1 SoBro.

I also think that as more gets built downtown, and a higher percentage of residents actually live in the core areas (and bringing retail, grocery stores, and the "normal" residential entertainment/amenity demand with them) that it will snowball.

We're still in sort of the infancy of our urban residential renaissance. More will come.

To bring this back to a built environment discussion, and not a demographics class, there is no conceivable reason for so many delay's with this project when the demand is there for more downtown units. I know of an agent who  has 30+ people waiting on downtown units. He is the one who told me Signature may be back in play.

 

Regardless, I am still frustrated with how slow the process is here in Nashville to get anything done. The Sobro should have broken ground a year ago as condo's and the building would have been sold out by now.

 

And in regards to Nashville, it deserves criticism. Nashville has lagged behind for decades and we have a mayor that is more interested in tourists rather than residents. I can count how many times the mayor has made it to East Nashville since I moved here a year ago. Zero, Nada. Never. It's because we are not a tourist destination. Believe me if Tony were building the Sobro for tourists, Dean would have helped him built it by now.

I'm sure I could conceive a reason or two for the delays. It starts and ends with money. I don't know what the actual issue is, but the fact is if the money was there, and the market was there, this tower would be rising as we speak. It could be something with Tony's partners. It could be something with Tony himself. It could be something with the lender, or the price of the bid. It could be that little property that Tony has been wanting to buy (and if he can't, would almost certainly add to the bottom line cost of construction). Who knows? I'm not worried about it. If it gets built, awesome. If it doesn't, oh well...something else will eventually.

I don't have any data in front of me, but I know there have been numerous projects that get delayed for multiple years, for whatever reason...some end up dead in the water, some get redesigned, and some get built just as intended. Development and construction is a volatile business.

And yes, Nashville does deserve criticism. Every city does. I just think you are holding Nashville to an unrealistic, almost fantasy standard. There are things that we lag behind on...but again...poll residents of every major city in this country...you'll probably find similar complaints there. One thing I think we certainly lag behind on is mass transit...but that's sort of a chicken and egg thing, so we really need to work on strengthening our inner city density before that can become a full reality. As far as other things...what...skyline? Not every city has a tall or wide skyline. We're certainly behind the leaders in our tier, but we're not at the bottom, either. Growth? Definitely not behind on that. Economy? Again, we're strong there. In fact, in a lot of categories, we do rather well. Across the board, though, we could certainly use some improvement. Better infrastructure, more sidewalks, more bike lanes, smarter growth and development.

As for Dean...whatever. He's a politician. He does what politicians do. In fact, he does a better job of pimping us out than most of our recent mayors (with the exception of Bredesen). I don't think everything he does is great. In fact...I think he's kind of controlling. But that's probably better than having another Purcell...who was more of a behind the scenes guy. Nothing wrong with that in city government...unless you're the mayor. And you can slam Dean all you want, but he's arguably done as much for pointing Nashville towards a more urban direction than any previous mayor (in my opinion). There's no doubt he has his eyes on the future as much as the present.

[captainwjm]

  And you can slam Dean all you want, but he's arguably done as much for pointing Nashville towards a more urban direction than any previous mayor (in my opinion). There's no doubt he has his eyes on the future as much as the present.

Agreed

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

 

If you were talking about an Asian city, or perhaps a South American or Canadian city of that size, then sure, 10 SoBros it is! But you'd be hard pressed to find an American city around our size. Heck...move up a city class. Still nowhere near 10 SoBros. Heck...lower the standard to 300 feet and Seattle doesn't even have 10 towers that are primarily residential. Seattle is twice as big as we are, and certainly no slouch in the skyline department.

Nashville hasn't seen the residential high rise boom that our contemporaries such as Austin and Charlotte have, and neither one of them has 10 SoBros. And they are the exceptions, not the rule.

As much as I would love to see a greater skyline and more residents downtown, we have to balance our dreams with the reality that we face. Only a fraction of our residents could afford to live in a posh high rise apartment or condo, and only a fraction of those would actually want to.

I do think there is some demand for more high rise options...but it's more like 1 Mondrian and 1 SoBro.

I also think that as more gets built downtown, and a higher percentage of residents actually live in the core areas (and bringing retail, grocery stores, and the "normal" residential entertainment/amenity demand with them) that it will snowball.

We're still in sort of the infancy of our urban residential renaissance. More will come.

I'm sure I could conceive a reason or two for the delays. It starts and ends with money. I don't know what the actual issue is, but the fact is if the money was there, and the market was there, this tower would be rising as we speak. It could be something with Tony's partners. It could be something with Tony himself. It could be something with the lender, or the price of the bid. It could be that little property that Tony has been wanting to buy (and if he can't, would almost certainly add to the bottom line cost of construction). Who knows? I'm not worried about it. If it gets built, awesome. If it doesn't, oh well...something else will eventually.

I don't have any data in front of me, but I know there have been numerous projects that get delayed for multiple years, for whatever reason...some end up dead in the water, some get redesigned, and some get built just as intended. Development and construction is a volatile business.

And yes, Nashville does deserve criticism. Every city does. I just think you are holding Nashville to an unrealistic, almost fantasy standard. There are things that we lag behind on...but again...poll residents of every major city in this country...you'll probably find similar complaints there. One thing I think we certainly lag behind on is mass transit...but that's sort of a chicken and egg thing, so we really need to work on strengthening our inner city density before that can become a full reality. As far as other things...what...skyline? Not every city has a tall or wide skyline. We're certainly behind the leaders in our tier, but we're not at the bottom, either. Growth? Definitely not behind on that. Economy? Again, we're strong there. In fact, in a lot of categories, we do rather well. Across the board, though, we could certainly use some improvement. Better infrastructure, more sidewalks, more bike lanes, smarter growth and development.

As for Dean...whatever. He's a politician. He does what politicians do. In fact, he does a better job of pimping us out than most of our recent mayors (with the exception of Bredesen). I don't think everything he does is great. In fact...I think he's kind of controlling. But that's probably better than having another Purcell...who was more of a behind the scenes guy. Nothing wrong with that in city government...unless you're the mayor. And you can slam Dean all you want, but he's arguably done as much for pointing Nashville towards a more urban direction than any previous mayor (in my opinion). There's no doubt he has his eyes on the future as much as the present.

Cannot wait to discuss this tomorrow over coffee!!

[UTgrad09]

Cannot wait to discuss this tomorrow over coffee!!

 

Look forward to it!

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Supposedly Tony has two construction firms bidding to build this tower. As I recall the original start date for this project was listed on Bidclerk for 2014. I think I (we) may have jumped the gun on this project. I stated last summer I thought this would start by fall 2012. Boy was I wrong!

[UTgrad09]

Supposedly Tony has two construction firms bidding to build this tower. As I recall the original start date for this project was listed on Bidclerk for 2014. I think I (we) may have jumped the gun on this project. I stated last summer I thought this would start by fall 2012. Boy was I wrong!

I also think that due to Hensler's tower getting started, it might be wise for him to wait a little while so that they wouldn't open near the same time and flood the higher end market. If he does start in 2014, then Hensler's tower should be about finished by the time Tony's is getting out of the ground.

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

I bet the real issue is getting financing for a condo tower instead of apartments. I bet he does condos and radically changes the design since he cannot get the yellow brick building. He does not have the basement lot either which runs off the southern portion of his large lot behind the restaurant building, but he does have the strip fronting 3rd Avenue.

[samsonh]

If he can't get the financing to do apartments there is no way he can get the financing for condos, imo

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Apartments are easier. No need for pre-sales.

[Guest 5th & Main Urbanite]

Maybe this is coming on line soon? I have a feeling this is about to pop.

[smeagolsfree]

John knows this but maybe you don't. I did see Ted Kromer and the Magellan partner on site at the Sobro several weeks back and the reason I know this is I talked to William and William confirmed it so just wanted to pass that along I do believe that this project is about to start as well.

[dxfret]

From The Tennessean:

 

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130716/BUSINESS01/307160122/Giarratana-partners-seal-deal-pursue-32-story-SoBro-tower?odyssey=mod{sodEmoji.|}breaking{sodEmoji.|}text{sodEmoji.|}FRONTPAGE

[bigeasy]

So would this be considered good news, as in it is a go? Or could we still see this being shelved?

[chris holman]

There's really no way to really know until the crane is in the air for alot of projects I thought were going to be build but stopped, or stalled , or redesigned or canceled all together! !

But im hopping for the best