North Gulch - Northwestern Mutual - 30+ Acres Mixed Use

[Nathan_in_DC]

Ah, all those beautiful railroad tracks, being used for nothing but freight... it's a shame.

That really is a huge area though. Too bad that just across the interstate is all that low density section 8 that will stay low density for the forseeable future.

[nashvillwill]

It's a shame they don't pick up those two massive parking lots along 8th/Rosa to add to their development.

I'm guessing they are state owned lots. Can anyone confirm?

[smeagolsfree]

It's a shame they don't pick up those two massive parking lots along 8th/Rosa to add to their development.

I'm guessing they are state owned lots. Can anyone confirm?

I think you are correct and I agree on many levels. The state has no business being in the parking lot business. State employees need to pay like the rest of the public and not have their parking subsidized by tax dollars.

By the way I did miss one building being demolished adn that is at the upper left hand corner. It is down as well.

[East Side Urbanite]

Ron,

Great work.

WW

[UTgrad09]

Has anyone else actually been in the little triangle between the tracks? It's kind of interesting/strange. Because of the raised tracks and overgrown brush, you don't even feel like you're in the city. There are points where you can't see downtown at all.

Here's a great google street view of the area.

I was actually very curious about what could be done with developing this site before I found out this was part of the NW Mutual deal.

The land from JoJohnston to Nelson Merry would be very hard to utilize, because of how limited the space is between the steep hill that leads to the RR tracks and the street.

I think it could make for a cool mixed use development that mimics the red brick Bruton Snuff factory just to the north. Build right up to the street, clear out the brush and trees right next to the RR tracks, and repaint/repair the RR bridges/tunnels.

[jdavidf]

I live near there and I've always thought these various oddly shaped pieces of land would be tricky to develop.. I've been wondering lately if the plan may be to completely re-work the street grid in there in order to better use the whole property - but then I can't imagine what they'll do with the RR tracks, though..

And I didn't realize until now that their property included the hillside between Jo Johnston and Clinton Streets, either..

It would be pretty swell if AT&T could be moved from there.. but they did just recently build that new facility, so it's hard to imagine them volunteering to do it again..

David

[nashvillwill]

Ill tell you what would fit perfectly in that awkward wedge between the railroad tracks.....a train station!!!!

Pipe dreams.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Ill tell you what would fit perfectly in that awkward wedge between the railroad tracks.....a train station!!!!

Pipe dreams.

You know, the more I look at this, the more it angers me: What the heck is a freight yard doing right in the middle of the central business district? I mean, yes, it is CSX's property that they inherited from the L&N, and there have always been freight operations there mixed with passenger operations earlier on. But we're no longer in an era of heavy industry right next to the capitol. A freight storage and switching yard has absolutely no business being there. Except in cases where a line is directly servicing a business or intermodal facility such as an airport or water port, freight rail operations in CBDs are unnecessary and obsolete.

The free marketer in me despises the idea of them being forced to relocated, but the urban developer in me despises their existence and the fact that they're taking up space that could be used for carrying people, not refrigerators and cabbage.

[UTgrad09]

A lot of cities have some sort of switching yard close into town...it's where a number of different lines cross. I lived right next to the one in Knoxville when I attended UT. It was noisy, but I didn't mind because I like watching trains.

[BnaBreaker]

I actually like having the freight trains downtown. It adds an interesting gritty character to the area, though it is unfortunate that the layout of the tracks where this particular development is slated to go takes up so much open space.

[bwithers1]

You know, the more I look at this, the more it angers me: What the heck is a freight yard doing right in the middle of the central business district?

Keep in mind, most freight lines that in today's world are near any cities' CBDs were laid when these areas were not in the central business district but were way at the edge of town. Often, even Union Stations (like Nashville's) were built literally at the edge of town. It's just that they were built at a time when the current downtown pretty much WAS the city limits. Then warehouse districts sprang up along the railroad lines at what had been the edge of town (like Cummins Station or the Cannery complex) where land was cheaper, and then at the turn of the century streetcar suburbs sprang up past those districts. That's way Vanderbilt sat amidst pastures with cows grazing along West End Ave until well into the 1890s. The same goes for Belmont.

Unfortunately for Nashville, some of the rail lines that exist were passenger train lines originally, but were bought by CSX and used exclusively for freight later. The Louisville & Nashville (L&N) lines are one example. Others, like the Tennessee Central ilnes in Nashville, were taken up and replaced by I-440. For those lines that still exist, it's going to be nearly impossible to get passenger rail going on them again, with limited success a la the Star line to Lebanon.

And one thing about the railroads is that they absolutely have the right of way for traffic. So reconfiguring streets et al can be tricky because the railroads are notoriously difficult to work with. And they are also notoriously bad about maintaining their properties in terms of brush control.

Whatever goes into this space will have an interesting configuration, to be sure!

[jdavidf]

I actually like having the freight trains downtown. It adds an interesting gritty character to the area, though it is unfortunate that the layout of the tracks where this particular development is slated to go takes up so much open space.

We love the trains downtown.. watching them from home when come across the river and encircle the city - it's like watching a toy train set (a really really big toy train set!).. just another part of the character of this side of town and I think it would be a shame if it wasn't there..

On the other hand it does gobble up a lot of land right there.. but what are you going to do? HOpefully the developers will make the best of it.

[jdavidf]

Keep in mind, most freight lines that in today's world are near any cities' CBDs were laid when these areas were not in the central business district but were way at the edge of town. Often, even Union Stations (like Nashville's) were built literally at the edge of town. It's just that they were built at a time when the current downtown pretty much WAS the city limits. Then warehouse districts sprang up along the railroad lines at what had been the edge of town (like Cummins Station or the Cannery complex) where land was cheaper, and then at the turn of the century streetcar suburbs sprang up past those districts. That's way Vanderbilt sat amidst pastures with cows grazing along West End Ave until well into the 1890s. The same goes for Belmont.

High praise alert: You sure remind me of It's Just Dave -- like you were there and were describing from memory!

[nashvylle]

Unfortunately for Nashville, some of the rail lines that exist were passenger train lines originally, but were bought by CSX and used exclusively for freight later. The Louisville & Nashville (L&N) lines are one example. Others, like the Tennessee Central ilnes in Nashville, were taken up and replaced by I-440. For those lines that still exist, it's going to be nearly impossible to get passenger rail going on them again, with limited success a la the Star line to Lebanon.

Why would it be nearly impossible to add passenger rail? I hate that we don't have any Amtrak options...

[timmay143]

I wonder if they'll end up developing this in phases or has that already been said by the developers? #Cantremeberbraingettingfull

[TNinVB]

Yes, but their meatballs are quite a bit better than any of the retail outfits you named. Anyone that's actually been to an IKEA knows what I'm talking about...

And don't forget about their fresh baked cinnamon rolls!

[Neigeville]

I actually like having the freight trains downtown. It adds an interesting gritty character to the area, though it is unfortunate that the layout of the tracks where this particular development is slated to go takes up so much open space.

The movement of the trains on their elevated tracks/bridges is also very cool, it adds a vertical dimension, especially when you're driving or walking under them. America is said to have the most advanced freight rail in the world; but some of the skimpiest passenger rail.

[nashvillwill]

America is said to have the most advanced freight rail in the world; but some of the skimpiest passenger rail.

That's what happens when you put the economy above all else. The citizens and the environment come second fiddle to money in this country.

Oops! Sorry, that's just my inner hippie talking. Just ignore him.

[NashRugger]

Why would it be nearly impossible to add passenger rail? I hate that we don't have any Amtrak options...

Look up the whole SunRail and CSX debacle in central Florida. CSX almost made it not happen.

[nashvylle]

almost* didnt happen. thats why Im hoping we can find a way

[dmillsphoto]

CSX should be investigated as a monopoly. I hate that company.

[NashRugger]

CSX should be investigated as a monopoly. I hate that company.

Hate em all you want, they move a lot of our goods and don't have another option on the rails here.

CSX doesn't want the liability of having passenger rail on its lines, so the state of Florida purchased the section for, I remember correctly, over $250mil.

[nashvylle]

what I don't understand, is I assume the government built the rails, so how does csx have control?

[smeagolsfree]

The rail companies own the lines and most of them were built by the RR companies and have been owned by them for a hundred years or more. The old companies financed all of the tracks and were able to make up profits by transporting cargo and passengers over the 150 years or so they have been around. Most of the lines that go into the National Parks out west were financed by and built by the Great Northern RR. Many cities sprouted up around the lines and there was competition by cities to get the RR to come though their city. I don’t think there was any govt. regulation and this was all done through free enterprise.

I am not an expert in this area but the RR companies I think own the land under the line, so therefore they own the line.

[MLBrumby]

CSX should be investigated as a monopoly. I hate that company.

Ah, but they've paid lots of money to have the government protect them against competition with lots and lots of regulations. Remember, the bigger government gets, the bigger companies get more and more for their money. When more regulations are piled onto business, the only companies that can deal with them are those with resources. It's happening with the big banks now!

And yes, Ron is right... the railroads did build those lines.. and over the decades, the government has allowed them to consolidate and become an oligopoly. As an attorney whose firm represented one of the largest railroads, I can tell you that the single greatest reason they don't allow passenger service on their lines is purely, and completely for the liability.