North Gulch - Northwestern Mutual - 30+ Acres Mixed Use

[timmay143]

Kind of off topic, but if you want to learn a bit about the old days and the railroad and other tycoons (Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, etc.) try to catch the series The Men Who Built America on the History Channel. Very informative and interesting, IMO!

[Neigeville]

Ah, but they've paid lots of money to have the government protect them against competition with lots and lots of regulations. Remember, the bigger government gets, the bigger companies get more and more for their money. When more regulations are piled onto business, the only companies that can deal with them are those with resources. It's happening with the big banks now!

And yes, Ron is right... the railroads did build those lines.. and over the decades, the government has allowed them to consolidate and become an oligopoly. As an attorney whose firm represented one of the largest railroads, I can tell you that the single greatest reason they don't allow passenger service on their lines is purely, and completely for the liability.

Another hidden subsidy for cars...when cars have a wreck, the road isn't liable. And roads don't pay taxes no matter how valuable the land they occupy. It always irks me when someone complains about public transit subsidies, as though car infrastructure somehow makes money.

As for the idea that corporate power is somehow increased by big government, I don't agree, on the contrary a big government is the only counterbalance to concentrated corporate power. But this takes us off topic.

BTW, I believe much of the land for those tracks was eminent domained. Why not take those parts back and give them to a passenger rail company on condition they share with the freight people?

And the liability issue obviously can be solved, there is passenger rail all over this country and the world, that sounds like a BS excuse to me.

[MLBrumby]

Off topic indeed. A) Just ask yourself why the big banks are now "too big to fail". You'll find the answer in the legislation passed the past five years. B) We need roads, all advanced societies have them. C) I am telling you what our client (the second largest RR) has hired our firm to deal with full-time, liability. You can choose not to believe it.

Regarding the railroad through downtown... just look at how Atlanta has dealt with their situation, and they have a whole lot more lines coming into their core. The creation of Radnor yards south of Nashville has alleviated much of that freight transfer... as anyone in Berry Hill and Elysian Fields would tell you (at all hours of the day). Of course, Nashville could do like Atlanta and build a system of viaducts over the gulch if they really wanted. It would cost a lot of money, and it's not likely that Jim Cooper would be able to get federal funding for such a project. It's just the reality of the situation... so Nashville should just continue to build up around it. Those railroads are not likely to be used for passenger service in the foreseeable future. Yes, it would be nice.

[nashvylle]

Another reason why I did not vote for Jim Cooper!

[Nathan_in_DC]

A lot of cities have some sort of switching yard close into town...it's where a number of different lines cross. I lived right next to the one in Knoxville when I attended UT. It was noisy, but I didn't mind because I like watching trains.

I had quite the view of it myself from Andy Holt and Morrill. I always got a kick out of it when they brought out the old steam locomotive to do switching work instead of just hauling the excursion train up the river.

But the one in Knoxville makes quite a bit more sense. Its location next to the river connects the local lines that serve the quarries and industry just up stream, as well as the remaining light industry in that part of town. It also isn't dividing downtown like the yards in Nashville are, which create a large physical barrier that hinders development and pedestrian access. It's kind of inconvenient that the ag campus and soccer fields are set apart, but that's it really.

Plus, Nashville is a city that could actually benefit from commuter rail in the near future, whereas Knoxville isn't.

[timmay143]

I had quite the view of it myself from Andy Holt and Morrill. I always got a kick out of it when they brought out the old steam locomotive to do switching work instead of just hauling the excursion train up the river.

But the one in Knoxville makes quite a bit more sense. Its location next to the river connects the local lines that serve the quarries and industry just up stream, as well as the remaining light industry in that part of town. It also isn't dividing downtown like the yards in Nashville are, which create a large physical barrier that hinders development and pedestrian access. It's kind of inconvenient that the ag campus and soccer fields are set apart, but that's it really.

Plus, Nashville is a city that could actually benefit from commuter rail in the near future, whereas Knoxville isn't.

Just curious for you're reasons why you think Knoxville wouldn't or couldn't benefit from commuter rail. Is it the sheer population difference and the way Nashville is spread out whereas Knoxville is more 1D to me? Or because Knoxville seems to be much more car-oriented and obsessed so commuter rail would have a hard time flying? I would think that a line at least to Oak Ridge could be beneficial to at least West Knoxville and maybe Maryville, but I really don't know Knoxville as well so I don't know the commuting patterns as well. I know out west gets pretty congested and it seems that area is more of a hub which spurs off to Oak Ridge, Maryville, and DT Knox (maybe more). I rarely go out west or even out much at all! I usually stick to North Knoxville and the DT/campus areas. This would never happen, but light rail or a street car down Kingston would be interesting!

[Nathan_in_DC]

Just curious for you're reasons why you think Knoxville wouldn't or couldn't benefit from commuter rail. Is it the sheer population difference and the way Nashville is spread out whereas Knoxville is more 1D to me? Or because Knoxville seems to be much more car-oriented and obsessed so commuter rail would have a hard time flying? I would think that a line at least to Oak Ridge could be beneficial to at least West Knoxville and maybe Maryville, but I really don't know Knoxville as well so I don't know the commuting patterns as well. I know out west gets pretty congested and it seems that area is more of a hub which spurs off to Oak Ridge, Maryville, and DT Knox (maybe more). I rarely go out west or even out much at all! I usually stick to North Knoxville and the DT/campus areas. This would never happen, but light rail or a street car down Kingston would be interesting!

I think Knoxville faces some serious geographical hurdles that would preclude economically constructing commuter rail, as well as the layout of its population base. Lines to Oak Ridge and Alcoa/Maryville would make the most sense, but to me it seems that there isn't enough of a concentration of workplaces in any one area that would make it viable. For instance, Oak Ridge is so spread out that it would be hard to have a central station that would adequately serve the companies and government operations there, and the geography of the labs would make it hard to set up an efficient commuter rail connection I would think. The problem with Knoxville is the commuting patterns are incredibly complex. Rush hour affects both eastbound and westbound traffic on 40 it seems, with people commuting both to and from Farragut, Oak Ridge, Maryville, and points north and south.

A light rail line would be much more appropriate I think, as it could easily connect the more built up areas around UT, downtown, North Knoxville and East Knoxville. Not that it will happen any time soon, of course. Have you seen the street car inside the East Tennessee History Museum? I would LOVE to see a fleet of those travelling down Knoxville (and Nashville!) streets once again!

[UTgrad09]

Just curious for you're reasons why you think Knoxville wouldn't or couldn't benefit from commuter rail. Is it the sheer population difference and the way Nashville is spread out whereas Knoxville is more 1D to me? Or because Knoxville seems to be much more car-oriented and obsessed so commuter rail would have a hard time flying? I would think that a line at least to Oak Ridge could be beneficial to at least West Knoxville and maybe Maryville, but I really don't know Knoxville as well so I don't know the commuting patterns as well. I know out west gets pretty congested and it seems that area is more of a hub which spurs off to Oak Ridge, Maryville, and DT Knox (maybe more). I rarely go out west or even out much at all! I usually stick to North Knoxville and the DT/campus areas. This would never happen, but light rail or a street car down Kingston would be interesting!

As spread out as Nashville is, Knoxville is even more so. Don't look at the overall city density between the two. Nashville's consolidated government figures are very deceptive in that regard. The built environment here is much more dense than in Knoxville. While Nashville only has maybe 18 or so 5,000+ density Census tracts, Knoxville has just 3 -- and all of them are in the UT area. That in itself doesn't condemn Knoxville from having commuter rail...but what does is that Knoxville doesn't have as many centralized jobs as Nashville does. Downtown Knoxville is not very built up. While we complain a lot about Cool Springs, it's even worse with Knoxville's West Town and Turkey Creek areas (compared to the size of the city). On top of that, most of the Knoxville suburban population actually exists within Knox County. You have two main areas out of the county -- Maryville/Alcoa and Oak Ridge. But both of those are relatively small compared to Murfreesboro and Franklin, which both have a lot more people, and a lot more jobs.

I think Knoxville would only have a chance at making one commuter line...from the Farragut area into downtown. That would essentially serve UT and downtown. But the problem is that the existing rail line runs nowhere near the massive retail and office area along Kingston Pike. From Bearden, the rail line veers towards Westland Drive and then parallels Fort Loudoun Lake. Yes, it's a very large residential area...but also one of the wealthiest areas of Knoxville. It's not overly dense, and I imagine the people there would rather take on Knoxville's commute in their cars than on a train. You might get some UT professors in that area to get on board (pardon the pun)...but for the majority of the workforce, I can't see it being practical.

East Knoxville has similar problems, but the current rail line parallels I-40 and splits the meat of the residential/commercial areas, putting it in a tough spot to make it actually convenient for commuters.

North Knoxville has geographic challenges and I don't believe it runs through enough population. Because of the foothills, the growth is very east-west directional (actually, slightly southwest to northeast), and the rail line runs more or less north-south.

South Knoxville itself doesn't have a lot of population...but a line could conceivably serve Maryville.

The difference in Nashville is that the suburbs are a lot more sizable...and clustered...and the rail lines run right through them (Gallatin, Hendersonville, Madison, Inglewood - Lebanon, Mount Juliet, Hermitage, Donelson - Murfreesboro, Smyrna, La Vergne, Antioch - Franklin, Cool Springs, Brentwood, 100 Oaks - Bellevue, Belle Meade, West End). Our lines run along major commercial areas -- so some stations can be put close by where there is already some parking, and it could also conceivably service reverse commuters (thinking mainly folks riding out to Cool Springs or Nissan, or even MTSU, all of which have rails within a reasonable distance).

[Nathan_in_DC]

I'm liking this discussion. Any way you can branch these comments off into the Mass Transit thread so we don't clutter this thread up with our dreams of efficient transit in Knoxville?

[smeagolsfree]

Another building coming down at the NW Mutual site. The building that is on the far right hand of the property next to the RR tracks on the old Hanson property being demolished as you look at this. Also, the company that was in the old Hanson building right on Charlotte has moved out and probaly will be next to come down.

[jdavidf]

Anybody know what's going on on the old Franklin Industries site? Lots of heavy equipment, they've torn everything down now, looks like they're clearing the entire site, maybe down to street level? They started work on this about the same time as the demo for the new apartments on 8th across from the Farmers' Market..
 

No signage to show what's going on though.. 

 

David

 

 

 

This image is what has and has not been demolished.

Areas in blue have not and areas in orange have or are about to be.

[smeagolsfree]

I am pretty sure that is part of the NW property. That building was one of the first to come down and they are now taking it to the floor plate.

[jdavidf]

Franklin Industries is in the top-right corner..  came down a while ago, but the remains of their parking garage were still there and lots of piles of concrete..  it does look like their just clearing off the property, though, so maybe nothing serious is actually happening right now.. 

[smeagolsfree]

Some equipment on site, not to mention core driller in use.

[dmillsphoto]

renamed thread.

[Neigeville]

It's so mysterious.  Do we have any idea what they are going to put on this site?  It's big enough to hold a whole town.

[smeagolsfree]

I think we will be seeing a site plan , hopefully soon. With all of the attention focused on Nashville right now, I would hope that NW Mutual is getting a lot of interest in this project. It is moving painfully slow for me.

[NashRugger]

I'm telling you, if their objective was to keep this whole thing basically a top secret, they've done a darn good job. I think most of us have the gut feeling that when they officially announce the proposal, it'll be mind-blowing. It's just a matter of time now. I expect no later than the the first month of 2nd quarter 2014, so April. 

[TNinVB]

Wouldn't it be a perfect place for Ikea? They could have freight delivered right to their back door. I think it woukd be a perfect spot but who knows at this point.

[FromParkAveToTN]

OMG!!! I hate Ikea.

[timmay143]

This is what I am hoping for!  However, as some of us discussed this at the meet on Saturday, the property has some unique "obstacles" to deal with.  One of the biggest (or maybe the biggest) is how the RR tracks cut through the property (properties).

I'm telling you, if their objective was to keep this whole thing basically a top secret, they've done a darn good job. I think most of us have the gut feeling that when they officially announce the proposal, it'll be mind-blowing. It's just a matter of time now. I expect no later than the the first month of 2nd quarter 2014, so April. 

[Jamie Hall]

Wouldn't it be a perfect place for Ikea? They could have freight delivered right to their back door. I think it woukd be a perfect spot but who knows at this point.

 

I was told back in the summer by somebody heavily involved in downtown real estate that IKEA was very interested in the NW Mutual site. Not sure if that's still true, or if it ever was, but worth noting.

[Nathan_in_DC]

I was told back in the summer by somebody heavily involved in downtown real estate that IKEA was very interested in the NW Mutual site. Not sure if that's still true, or if it ever was, but worth noting.

 

I emailed IKEA a few months back, and they reiterated that they are not currently looking to expand into Nashville...unfortunately, I believe them.  Maybe in 5 years, but not right now.

[timmay143]

IKEA should probably go elsewhere since they are usually box type stores.  Unless an IKEA design is super urbany, I'd like to see a high dense mixed use of a lot of retail (grocery, movie theater, more of shopping "destination" for DTners) with office and residential sprinkled in.  Parking would be mixed in as either masked by usable building (retail/office/residential front) or underground.

 

I hope I am not disappointed as this is a large chunk of DT land that needs something highly functional, IMO.

[nashvillwill]

I can assure you, no ikea is "Urban-y". This would be a massive fail if that's what ended up there.