Nashville Bits and Pieces

[CenterHill]

As far as Elvis...he actually has quite a history in Nashville, including recording more than 200 songs in RCA Studio B...but I don't really see Nashville hyping him that much.

 

Except for his gold Caddy in the CMHOF, lol.   Thankyouverymuch.   

[titanhog]

Except for his gold Caddy in the CMHOF, lol.   Thankyouverymuch.   

Well...he did record in the country music industry and is inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame...so I would say having Elvis memorabilia in the CMHoF is appropriate.

[CenterHill]

Well...he did record in the country music industry and is inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame...so I would say having Elvis memorabilia in the CMHoF is appropriate.

 

Totally appropriate.   Not disagreeing.   I was being flip in reaction to the lack of hype.    The hype is not in your face, but it's here if you know where to look. 

[Guest]

The Tennessean is running pics from 1974 and this beauty of a happening Church Street presented itself.... any clue where this is on Church?

 

[MLBrumby]

Isn't the downtown Presbyterian church that once served as a Civil War hospital right past the Bakers Shoes sign?  Church Street definitely doesn't look that way today.

[rookzie]

The Tennessean is running pics from 1974 and this beauty of a happening Church Street presented itself.... any clue where this is on Church?

 

 

 

No, DwnTwn Presbytery would be a full block-corner behind the camera vantage, on the same side of the street as that bus.  Maybe you did'nt realize that back then, Trailways and Greyhound went almost everywhere, with locals throughout the mid-state.  You could go to the station SE corner of 6th and Union and catch Greyhound (including the double-deck SceniCruisers).  Back then 6th ran all the way south past Commerce unbroken, before Greyhound got torn down for the present Convention Center and the Stouffer Hotel (turned Renaissance) at that site.  I used to ride it to Smyrna, and to Millersville (as if I were actually going somewhere).  Trailways had been located on the NE SW corner of 7th and Union Commerce (now a parking lot), on the same block as Hume-Fogg Technical High School (as it had been called back then).

Look at that oblique angle 3-D signage on that fascia, just above and to the left of the bus in the photo.  Those were orange plastic letters of  what had been W.T. Grant & Co. at the SW corner of 6th and Church.  We have our first-Saturday meets at that site (Public Library – Provence).  Some other details were the then locally famous (Harold) Shyer’s Jewelers, and Book World (Mills Book Store).  That entire square block between 6th and 7th and between Church and Commerce was leveled for the current library and parking facility.  Model shoe Rebuilders had maintained its Church Street shop, along with a second one eventually on Bandywood Drive in Green Hills, until the plans for the Library were completed.  The Green Hills shop remains to this day, under the same name but sold to another party.

 

Barely recognizable between Baker’s Shoes and Model Shoe Rebuilders was the Loew's Vendome Theater (pronounced "Vahn-dohm"), which was closed following a 1967 fire.  Originally built as an opera house during the late 1800s (rebuilt around the turn of last century), the Vendome probably had been the oldest remaining motion-picture theater before it closed as a theater.  This photo is one of the very few reminders in my recent (or even distant) past of memories of that old movie theater.  Even up to the end, the stage curtain would be slowly raised or lowered at the start or finish or film features.  The interior indeed had seemed to me as rather shabby and creepy, but even then, one could still gain and admiration of the lavishly and ornately detailed Victorian dark finished quarter-sawn oak interior balconies, casings, and other trimming.

If you can locate in the photo that "Book World" banner, then immediately above the upper-right corner of that banner is the soffit which used to form the marquee of the Art-Deco era Paramount Theatre (between 7th and 8th Avenues), torn down in 1979 (the year Nashv’l lost all Amtrak service).

 

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Edited November 24, 2014 by rookzie

[MidTenn1]

Look at that oblique angle 3-D signage on that fascia, just above and to the left of the bus in the photo.  Those were orange plastic letters of  what had been W.T. Grant & Co. at the SW corner of 6th and Church.  We have our first-Saturday meets at that site (Public Library – Provence).  Some other details were the then locally famous (Harold) Shyer’s Jewelers, and Book World (Mills Book Store).

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 Yep. 6th and Church looking west.

[fieldmarshaldj]

^And, of course, that was before Mayor Dick Fulton's ingenious plan to brick up the street and turn it into a serpentine design (which helped spur on further decline and abandonment of the businesses along it). Walking down that same street on the weekends just 3-4 years after the pic was taken, it was just totally dead.

[rookzie]

smeagolsfree Ron already had posted a photo in the "New Construction and Crane Sightings" sub-topic of the 505 ChSt site with commenced preparation for construction.  I took my mid-morning break and senior-citizen walk today (Friday) and moseyed over to the site (since I observed the fencing).

view of site (facing northwest from Central Church of Christ)

While satiating my curiosity, I noticed excavators uncovering what most likely has to have been the entombed vestiges of the superstructure of the Cain-Sloan Department Store built at that site during the 1950s (opening dedication in March 1957).  As one of the "middle-aged" victims succumbing in the demise of the once bustling Church Street district, this "newer" Cain-Sloan store had become the company's new flag-ship, which until then had occupied the structure at St. Cloud Corner (extending from the NW corner at 5th and Church to the existing alley westward mid-block toward 6th).

It’s not uncommon to simply fill in partially removed sub-grades of razed structures, as long as they are incompressible and pose no risk of cave-in.  I have retrieved small mementos from an 1880s-built Chicago train station torn down (Harrison and Wells Streets), with box-girders torched off flush to the ground and still remaining visible 43 years later.  The future developer then assumes the cost of removing these remains prior to new construction.  As the "new" Cain-Sloan had a parking entrance midway down-grade along the 5th Ave. side, the store contained a full ground level below grade at its front along Church Street.  This fact and the engineering design of the exposed girders buried below the current parking surface, therefore indicate that these unearthed remnants of steel and concrete must have been from this structure, rather than from a previous one.

excavated gusseted welded angle sill

 entangled with what appears to be Nº 7 (1 inch dia.) and Nº14 (1-78 inch dia.) rebar


excavated concrete-rebar girder pillars


aerial view of Cain-Sloan Department Store
 with integral parking, parking annex (site now owned by McKendree Methodist Church)


Cain-Sloan prior to 1957 (at St. Cloud Corner)

 

Cain-Sloan at 505 Church St (new bldg. 1957+)

 across from St. Cloud Corner (then occupied by Harvey's Dept. Store)

 

 

 

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Edited November 22, 2014 by rookzie

[smeagolsfree]

Thanks for posting Ricky. Cool to see remnants of old Nashville unearthed.

[BnaBreaker]

Fascinating!!!

[fieldmarshaldj]

^I went downtown the afternoon before the above-ground demolition of Cain-Sloan back around 1994. Probably took the last photos of the building at its last sunset. I still hate they demolished it and part of Harvey's across the street, leaving that hideous gap in the block (which enables one to see the Hermitage Hotel all the way to the ground floor from below the Cain-Sloan parking site). . :-(

[East Side Urbanite]

Throw the population counts out the window. Memphis is vastly larger than Nashville in terms of what many of us would call a "traditional/conventional urban built fabric." In simple terms, "urban Memphis" (compared to "urban Nashville") has a massive geographic span of gridded streets, sidewalked/curbed/buried-utility streets, streets with buildings positioned at the sidewalks, etc. It's not even close. Memphis simply "plays bigger" than Nashville (notwithstanding Nashville's much more impressive number of buildings 120 feet tall and taller).

 

WW

[rookzie]

Throw the population counts out the window. Memphis is vastly larger than Nashville in terms of what many of us would call a "traditional/conventional urban built fabric." In simple terms, "urban Memphis" (compared to "urban Nashville") has a massive geographic span of gridded streets, sidewalked/curbed/buried-utility streets, streets with buildings positioned at the sidewalks, etc. It's not even close. Memphis simply "plays bigger" than Nashville (notwithstanding Nashville's much more impressive number of buildings 120 feet tall and taller).

 

WW

 

This is exactly the point that I had intended to make a few months ago, when someone brought up the comparison of Nashv'l with Memphis, in regard to multiple-unit dwellings positioned at the sidewalks and wider streets.  Memphis waxed "big" commercially and with its infrastructure, during the early 20th century because of its proximity to other Miss. River cities (for both passenger and cargo movements) and to the huge and agriculturally rich Delta region in the northwestern portion of the State of Mississippi adjoining Shelby Co., as well as its being a major center for many independent railroads, which of course had been instrumental in Memphis' industrial and commercial surges, during a period typically transitional between the turn of last century and WW II.

 

This seeming irony was not necessarily unique for the time.  Look at Kentucky, then and now.  Although it doesn't even closely compare to Nashv'l, the capital city of Frankfort, still remains far less influential as an attraction of urban and commercial development, than is Louisville.  This could be said similarly for Augusta compared to Portland, Me., and for Dover compared to Wilmington, Del. (glad I didn't grow up in Wilmington), although we would be speaking of a different set of context and dynamics of comparison, unlike that of Nashv'l and Memphis.

 

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[BnaBreaker]

Throw the population counts out the window. Memphis is vastly larger than Nashville in terms of what many of us would call a "traditional/conventional urban built fabric." In simple terms, "urban Memphis" (compared to "urban Nashville") has a massive geographic span of gridded streets, sidewalked/curbed/buried-utility streets, streets with buildings positioned at the sidewalks, etc. It's not even close. Memphis simply "plays bigger" than Nashville (notwithstanding Nashville's much more impressive number of buildings 120 feet tall and taller).

 

WW

 

Agreed completely.  Well stated.  I love Nashville, but can we please give our big brother the respect it deserves?  I know we quarrel now and again, but give Memphis credit where it's due.  I've always hated the whole 'us vs. them' dynamic when it comes to Nashville and Memphis.  Yes, obviously, there will naturally be competition due to geographical location, demographics, city size etc...but sometimes it appears as though there is a genuine dislike for the other on both ends for whatever reason, when the reality is that Memphis and Nashville have so much in common and are both of vital importance to the success of the state of Tennessee as a whole.

Edited November 22, 2014 by BnaBreaker

[rookzie]

^I went downtown the afternoon before the above-ground demolition of Cain-Sloan back around 1994. Probably took the last photos of the building at its last sunset. I still hate they demolished it and part of Harvey's across the street, leaving that hideous gap in the block (which enables one to see the Hermitage Hotel all the way to the ground floor from below the Cain-Sloan parking site). . :-(

 

Yes, I always thought that the removal of those buildings, leaving those unsightly gaps, made that part of downtown look like some surreal derelict Godzilla-eaten aftermath of decay and abandonment (which it had been to a great extent, due to commercial flight to the burbs), with exposed and severed masonry walls, particularly in what used to be the primary shopping district overlaying 4th through 7th Avenues between Church and Union Streets.  Not that many years ago, there had been little if any vacant surface space except for places like the parking lot south of the Central ChofChrist along Commerce at 5th.  Just about every parcel within that immediate district had been occupied by some structure, even if the structure itself had been unoccupied (which of course led to neglect and the eventual need for condemning).

 

I can understand property holders shedding the overhead of maintaining unprofitable ownership, and speculative acquisition with the intent of later flipping for profit, but this seemed to have occurred during a 30-40 year span, with the resulting felling of existing structures, as the likes of the large investors are allowed to purchase and raze these structures, decades before the parcels might become redeveloped (if even then).

 

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Edited November 22, 2014 by rookzie

[smeagolsfree]

It is almost impossible to compare any two cities of similar size. Mostly it is for bragging rights I think. There are so many factors involved, but a key one is density. I think persons per sq mile may be the key to comparison. Nashville has a long way to go to get the density of Memphis, Austin, Indianapolis, or any one of a dozen cities.

[UTgrad09]

Persons per square mile is pretty much a useless stat when comparing Nashville's city limits to anywhere. You have a whole side of the county that covers ~130 square miles that contributes less than 30,000 people. 80% of the population lives in 40% of the land area in Davidson County.

 

I know the metric isn't perfect in every city (some cities have large airports within their city limits, others don't; some have land features within the city limits that are mostly undeveloped; some cities have large reserves or park land), but it is especially difficult with cities like Nashville and Jacksonville.

 

I'm not saying we're in the same league as places such as Austin and Indianapolis in terms of density, but we're not as far behind as you may think. For Memphis, what hurts is depopulation. The built environment is fairly dense (for a southern city), but the population gains for decades have relied on annexation, not natural growth. The annexation has actually offset a lot of the population loss....something that is becoming evident as Memphis runs low on suitable areas to annex.

[titanhog]

It is almost impossible to compare any two cities of similar size. Mostly it is for bragging rights I think. There are so many factors involved, but a key one is density. I think persons per sq mile may be the key to comparison. Nashville has a long way to go to get the density of Memphis, Austin, Indianapolis, or any one of a dozen cities.

Nashville density: about 1200/sq mile

Memphis density: about 2000/sq mile

Austin density: about 2700/sq mile

Indianapolis density: about 2300/sq mile

Charlotte density: about 2600/sq mile

Louisville density: about 1900/sq mile

Birmingham density: about 1400/sq mile

Knoxville density: about 1800/sq mile

 

Now...I got these off of wikipedia...but hopefully they're at least in the ballpark.  I believe most of these are based off of 2010.  Also...Nashville's is more than likely based off of Davidson County...so not sure what it would be if it was just Nashville...not DC.

 

After saying that...this at least shows that we are fairly low in density, as Ron mentioned above.

[BnaBreaker]

On top of that, if we're attempting to use population density as a metric for picking out which cities are more urban and walkable, while it's often a decent indicator it often isn. I'd be willing to bet that the density figures for a place like Phoenix, for example, are higher than any of the above, but the city is almost entirely suburban in terms of the style of development. Dense sprawl might be preferable from a land use perspective, but it still checks off every other box for sprawl.

Edited November 22, 2014 by BnaBreaker

[Hey_Hey]

It would be more useful to use the density figure for the Urban Services District in Nashville when comparing Nashville's urbanity with other cities. Our current population and density figures are using places like rural Joelton and Bell's Bend that give us very little popation but huge swaths of land that artificially lowers our density. Places like Louisville, Jacksonville, and Lexington are in the same situation.

[UTgrad09]

^^^

Nashville's USD has 430,000 people in 189 square miles, so about 2,275 per square mile. That doesn't include large parts of Bellevue, Antioch, Hermitage, or Madison. I've done my own numbers and come up with (2010 numbers) 568,000 people in 263 square miles (this includes some of the satellite cities, but they don't exactly boost the density) or 2,158 per square mile.

 

I know you can play with the numbers with other cities, but those are the numbers if you trim the 'fat' off of Nashville's land area.

[titanhog]

I agree...those numbers are very subjective and don't tell the whole story.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Yes, I always thought that the removal of those buildings, leaving those unsightly gaps, made that part of downtown look like some surreal derelict Godzilla-eaten aftermath of decay and abandonment (which it had been to a great extent, due to commercial flight to the burbs), with exposed and severed masonry walls, particularly in what used to be the primary shopping district overlaying 4th through 7th Avenues between Church and Union Streets.  Not that many years ago, there had been little if any vacant surface space except for places like the parking lot south of the Central ChofChrist along Commerce at 5th.  Just about every parcel within that immediate district had been occupied by some structure, even if the structure itself had been unoccupied (which of course led to neglect and the eventual need for condemning).

 

I can understand property holders shedding the overhead of maintaining unprofitable ownership, and speculative acquisition with the intent of later flipping for profit, but this seemed to have occurred during a 30-40 year span, with the resulting felling of existing structures, as the likes of the large investors are allowed to purchase and raze these structures, decades before the parcels might become redeveloped (if even then).

 

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It was one observation made at the time in the mid to late '90s (in the Nashville Scene, I believe), that the demolitions on Church made the street cease to be urban at all. Unfortunately, what kicked off the madness of needless demolition for parking lots started with the Hotel Tulane (which, now some 55 years later STILL remains a parking lot). Actually, just a short time before that, the site of Cain-Sloan I believe, was briefly a parking lot (I forgot what building(s) fell that stood there originally) before they erected the new building in the '50s after moving across the street from St. Cloud Corner (as you mentioned). But, at least at the time when something was demolished, it would swiftly be replaced with a newer and more substantial structure (such as the L&C, the new Cain-Sloan and the old-for-the-new Watkins Building, the latter being one of the worst architectural losses in the city).

But the Tulane demo was different, it was a demolition just to be demolished, nothing (as far as I know) to go in its place. It was like a beautiful bookend for the west side of the main CBD along Church. Another grievous loss was by accident, the original Maxwell House Hotel which was destroyed by fire. At least that, however, didn't stay a vacant lot for too long before Third National Bank decided to build its high rise.

Jumping ahead to the '80s when we saw the closures of the last of the theaters, Harvey's (in 1984), Cain-Sloan (c.1987), it was looking bad (especially given that nothing was going into those buildings, if but temporarily), and empty buildings are a recipe for disaster. The opening of the 2nd Third National Tower (then the tallest) didn't help with revitalization. Unfortunately, neither did Church Street Centre (a good idea, but 25 years ahead of its time, or perhaps 30 years behind). Going up on the upper floors, you could see the deteriorating neighbors across the street and I worried how long it would be before they came down (and after a fire and more demolitions, they got replaced by the "pocket park" in front of the new library).

It got even worse that CSC did nothing to halt the closure of Castner-Knott as the last downtown department store, and the adjacent Doctors & Bennie-Dillon buildings were at potential risk for demolition as they were in dreadful shape inside. Each month passed and you wondered how much worse it was going to get. Add to that, the demolition of the Tennessee Theater followed by the Sudekum Building above for the subpar Cumberland Apartments (which remains a lamentable loss), and Cain-Sloan, of course, and also the near-loss of the original Third National Bank (now the Courtyard by Marriott), and the loss of the heart of the Harvey's block (which still makes no logical sense to me).

I'm just one of those that believes unless there is something to be built immediately upon a given property, demolition for demolition's sake or for a parking lot is simply inexcusable (with the exception being if the property does not historically contribute to an area -- and let's face it, most of these were contributing properties). Just imagine a vibrant Church Street today where those needlessly lost properties still stood (a restored Hotel Tulane, Tennessee Theater and other smaller theaters, as well as lesser 19th century business structures). Of course, Nashville isn't the only city guilty of having allowed this to happen.

[rookzie]

It was one observation made at the time in the mid to late '90s (in the Nashville Scene, I believe), that the demolitions on Church made the street cease to be urban at all. Unfortunately, what kicked off the madness of needless demolition for parking lots started with the Hotel Tulane (which, now some 55 years later STILL remains a parking lot). Actually, just a short time before that, the site of Cain-Sloan I believe, was briefly a parking lot (I forgot what building(s) fell that stood there originally) before they erected the new building in the '50s after moving across the street from St. Cloud Corner (as you mentioned). But, at least at the time when something was demolished, it would swiftly be replaced with a newer and more substantial structure (such as the L&C, the new Cain-Sloan and the old-for-the-new Watkins Building, the latter being one of the worst architectural losses in the city).

But the Tulane demo was different, it was a demolition just to be demolished, nothing (as far as I know) to go in its place. It was like a beautiful bookend for the west side of the main CBD along Church. Another grievous loss was by accident, the original Maxwell House Hotel which was destroyed by fire. At least that, however, didn't stay a vacant lot for too long before Third National Bank decided to build its high rise.

Jumping ahead to the '80s when we saw the closures of the last of the theaters, Harvey's (in 1984), Cain-Sloan (c.1987), it was looking bad (especially given that nothing was going into those buildings, if but temporarily), and empty buildings are a recipe for disaster. The opening of the 2nd Third National Tower (then the tallest) didn't help with revitalization. Unfortunately, neither did Church Street Centre (a good idea, but 25 years ahead of its time, or perhaps 30 years behind). Going up on the upper floors, you could see the deteriorating neighbors across the street and I worried how long it would be before they came down (and after a fire and more demolitions, they got replaced by the "pocket park" in front of the new library).

It got even worse that CSC did nothing to halt the closure of Castner-Knott as the last downtown department store, and the adjacent Doctors & Bennie-Dillon buildings were at potential risk for demolition as they were in dreadful shape inside. Each month passed and you wondered how much worse it was going to get. Add to that, the demolition of the Tennessee Theater followed by the Sudekum Building above for the subpar Cumberland Apartments (which remains a lamentable loss), and Cain-Sloan, of course, and also the near-loss of the original Third National Bank (now the Courtyard by Marriott), and the loss of the heart of the Harvey's block (which still makes no logical sense to me).

I'm just one of those that believes unless there is something to be built immediately upon a given property, demolition for demolition's sake or for a parking lot is simply inexcusable (with the exception being if the property does not historically contribute to an area -- and let's face it, most of these were contributing properties). Just imagine a vibrant Church Street today where those needlessly lost properties still stood (a restored Hotel Tulane, Tennessee Theater and other smaller theaters, as well as lesser 19th century business structures). Of course, Nashville isn't the only city guilty of having allowed this to happen.

 

...and upon my return to Nashv'l during the early-mid '90s following a long absence, that was the very reason that I felt like Chrissy Hynde did, when she herself sang the song that she wrote for the Pretenders, "My City Was Gone" (a "dirge" to her home city of Akron, Oh.).  Nashv'l never incurred the affliction of vanishing vistas from the CBD that the rust-belt communities did (and I used to live 14 miles from Akron a few years prior to the song's release), but CBD's throughout the country have undergone this fate, to a greater or a lesser degree.

 

It's the effect of what you described that simply appears amplified, when one returns as if he had been MIA for a bunch of years.

 

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