Nashville Bits and Pieces

[UTgrad09]

Arkitekte,

 

Though you are correct to note that Memphis leaders do sometimes show a certain envy toward Nashville, their emotions are fueled, in part, due to some uncalled-for anti-Memphis sentiment from Nashviilians.

It is certainly not a one-sided affair, though. I do think some Nashvillians are quick to dismiss Memphis as a 'crime-ridden hell hole' without recognizing the good the city has to offer.

But on the flip side, I have heard plenty of comments from Memphians about our supposed lack of culture, or being a 'fake' city (much like the idiotic complaint some lob at Charlotte).

I don't think it is something that *we* started and they are reacting to. I think it goes back long before any of us were born.

The two cities and their citizenry could do a better job of being "teammates." Sadly, that will likely never happen. I have strong  family ties to both cities, so I want both to prosper. However, there are many Nashviillians I know who seemingly wish Memphis ill will. I find it troubling at the least and offensive at the worst.

I do agree that both cities could be better teammates -- because I think that is actually in the best interest of both parties.

I don't agree that it will "never" happen. Never say never. I strongly doubt the cities will become 'bestest friends', but the two cities find themselves in an interestingly similar boat politically. With the state becoming increasingly red, Memphis and Nashville (cities) are really the only large blue spots left, as most of the formerly Democratic rural areas have turned red.

I'll also echo my previous comment that it's not just Nashvillians that have that sort of sentiment of 'ill will'. I made quite a few friends from Memphis while I was at UT. I was pretty appalled at some of the comments made in the wake of the 2010 flood via Facebook.

It's not right on either end, but you seem to think it's more of a Nashville thing, and I'm not sure I agree with that.

I will say that the 'rivalry' today is a lot more tame than I remember it in the 90s (I can't speak for the 80s and on back). The combination of Nashville's metro passing Memphis as well as adding 2 pro sports franchises seemed to fuel a lot of bad blood between the cities. That, and possibly the number of transplants that have no dog in the fight, has seemed to cool things down a lot. There are little flare-ups now and then (like with the announcement of the proposed museum), but for the most part, I'd say it's the extreme minority of both places that are throwing rocks. Most don't seem to care.

[jmtunafish]

I also lived in Memphis (8 years) and have heard a heck of a lot more anti-Nashville smack from Memphians than anti-Memphis smack from Nashvillians.  Memphians like to whine that Nashville's growth is simply because it's the state capital.  But they fail to remember that for most of the last 100 years, Memphis was the state's premier city, by far, and that much of the state's political power was centered in Memphis (Boss Crump).  I think two events reversed those fortunes:  the assassination of MLK in Memphis (and its accompanying, persistent problems with race relations), and the Nashville-Davidson County merger.

 

I adore Memphis and loved my time there, but I'm afraid its best days are behind her.  Just as Nashville had to take a back seat to Memphis for most of the last 100 years, now it's Memphis's turn to take a back seat.

Edited August 18, 2014 by jmtunafish

[East Side Urbanite]

I also lived in Memphis (8 years) and have heard a heck of a lot more anti-Nashville smack from Memphians than anti-Memphis smack from Nashvillians.  Memphians like to whine that Nashville's growth is simply because it's the state capital.  But they fail to remember that for most of the last 100 years, Memphis was the state's premier city, by far, and that much of the state's political power was centered in Memphis (Boss Crump).  I think two events reversed those fortunes:  the assassination of MLK in Memphis (and its accompanying, persistent problems with race relations), and the Nashville-Davidson County merger.

 

I adore Memphis and loved my time there, but I'm afraid its best days are behind her.  Just as Nashville had to take a back seat to Memphis for most of the last 100 years, now it's Memphis's turn to take a back seat.

 

 

JmT,

 

Points well made. Nashville is enjoying its best days and Memphis — though still a city with much to offer — is not. My main complaint is that so many Nashvillians fail to see all the cool things Memphis has to offer. I realize that Memphians are guilty of failing to see Nashville's strengths, too. But it just seems more pronounced with Nashvillians. There are many Nashville residents (at least as I see it) who simply do not fully appreciate how "urban" Memphis' "built form" is. And that is unfortunate, given Memphis is a key city in our state.

 

 

WW

It is certainly not a one-sided affair, though. I do think some Nashvillians are quick to dismiss Memphis as a 'crime-ridden hell hole' without recognizing the good the city has to offer.

But on the flip side, I have heard plenty of comments from Memphians about our supposed lack of culture, or being a 'fake' city (much like the idiotic complaint some lob at Charlotte).

I don't think it is something that *we* started and they are reacting to. I think it goes back long before any of us were born.

I do agree that both cities could be better teammates -- because I think that is actually in the best interest of both parties.

I don't agree that it will "never" happen. Never say never. I strongly doubt the cities will become 'bestest friends', but the two cities find themselves in an interestingly similar boat politically. With the state becoming increasingly red, Memphis and Nashville (cities) are really the only large blue spots left, as most of the formerly Democratic rural areas have turned red.

I'll also echo my previous comment that it's not just Nashvillians that have that sort of sentiment of 'ill will'. I made quite a few friends from Memphis while I was at UT. I was pretty appalled at some of the comments made in the wake of the 2010 flood via Facebook.

It's not right on either end, but you seem to think it's more of a Nashville thing, and I'm not sure I agree with that.

I will say that the 'rivalry' today is a lot more tame than I remember it in the 90s (I can't speak for the 80s and on back). The combination of Nashville's metro passing Memphis as well as adding 2 pro sports franchises seemed to fuel a lot of bad blood between the cities. That, and possibly the number of transplants that have no dog in the fight, has seemed to cool things down a lot. There are little flare-ups now and then (like with the announcement of the proposed museum), but for the most part, I'd say it's the extreme minority of both places that are throwing rocks. Most don't seem to care.

 

 

UTGrad,

 

You make some valid points. I know Memphians can be  rough on Nashville.

 

As  someone who loves both cities, I wish the "hating on" would stop.

 

WW

Edited August 18, 2014 by East Side Urbanite

[arkitekte]

As  someone who loves both cities, I wish the "hating on" would stop.

 

I hear you. Per Mapquest, I grew up 111.4 miles from Nashville and 111.9 from Memphis. I love both equally. Competition between both is good, but only if it's productive to make both cities better. 

[donNdonelson2]

The Nashville/Memphis division was one of the featured themes of Peter Taylor's novel, "A Summons to Memphis," which won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1987.  If anyone's looking for a book for the beach, or the mountains, check it out.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/10/19/books/the-family-game-was-revenge.html

[grilled_cheese]

My GF hails from Memphis and everytime we go back I am in awe of how different the architecture is from Nashville's.  They're subtle differences but they're ones that I notice quite clearly. 

 

Memphish had their time as a musical mecca but that time has waned.  See:  the beotchization of the Pyramid into a Bass Pro Shop flagship store.  Also, there aren't really any bands/groups/artists that are popping up, atleast in recent memory (Three 6 Mafia excluded).

Edited August 18, 2014 by grilled_cheese

[rookzie]

I recently visited the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland (Cleveland?!!) and while it gave appropriate credit to Memphis and Detroit for its influence in the origins of rock and roll, Nashville was not mentioned. I searched and searched and there was almost zero mention of Nashville anywhere.

 

Nashville played a huge part in Rock and Rolls development and history. Nashville needs to build its own R&R Museum that celebrates this aspect of Nashville's musical impact on the world.

 

From the Encyclopedia Brittanica..

 

 

Rock & Rollers who developed their careers and/or recorded hit music in Nashville...

 

Elvis

Roy Orbison

Brenda Lee

Pat Boone

Everly Brothers 

Neil Young

Simon & Garfunkel

Bob Dylan

Jimmi Hendrix

Dan Fogleberg

Charlie Daniels

Paul McCartney

George Harrison

Roger Miller

Tanya Tucker

on and on...

 

 

Good  find, PhofKS. Just read.

 

I've been to the Stax museum and it is strong. I've also been to Sun studio. Have yet to visit Rock and Soul Museum on Beale Street.

 

Nashville has a strong history with African-American music and I am very excited about the museum. Clearly, Memphis has a much more significant history. But I suppose if leaders in Boise or Buffalo got the money and the place, we could have a black music museum in those cities. 

 

WW

 

 

Thanks for jogging my own memory.  Nashville had been the recording venue or the birthplace of a sizable array of R&B/R&R singers in the Soul genre during the early-to-late '60s,   While most of these artists had been primarily popular within the Soul scene, and therefore may not have been widely known otherwise, nevertheless the careers of these artists (some with only one-hit wonders) had been spawned within Nashville.  These include:

 1963 - The Avons [female trio] (Groove)

 1965 - Edwin Starr (Ric-Tic, MoTown )

 1966 - Bobby Hebb (Phillips, Cadet, Mercury,...)

 

Many of these artists had been featured on a local late Saturday-night WLAC TV program: "Night Train" with host Noble Blackwell.  This having been back before broadcast network TV would sign off shortly after midnight, or following a weekend creature feature, "Night Train", which had been the "prime time" of late night for many African-American families within the WLAC Channel-5 viewing area, served as a launching market for many of these young Soul bloomers.

 

With many of these songs promoted and networked on African-American AM radio stations throughout the nation, during the flourishing period of the 45-rpm vinyl disc, Nashville had cranked out these artists, many of whom had been signed with recording labels either main or subsidiary spin-offs.  On the other hand, Memphis recording label Stax (mainly during its partnership with Atlantic Records for most of the '60s) hosted a number of smaller and "top-dog" artists, including:

  Booker T and the MGs

  Otis Redding

  Rufus Thomas

  Carla Thomas

  the Bar-Kays (Volt label)

  Eddie Floyd

  Wilson Pickett

  Johnny Taylor

 

...all of which had made the Memphis sound coherently legendary.  Sadly (or fortunately, as history would have it), Stax had been able to capitalize on Memphis' Sun Records reported refusal to sign on aspiring African-American artists of the time.

 

And briefly during the late '60s, James Brown and some of his "entourage" back-ups recorded with Starday-King (after King had been acquired by Starday of Nashville). That Starday and King Records separately had been more diverse in their respective clientele sign-ups than had Sun Records, this practice, along with the fact that King Records had tended to encourage the mixing of genres and artists, might have contributed to the cosmopolitan role that Nashville has played in landing multiple genres of artists within the distinct coexistent markets served by Memphis and Nashville.

 

This all just illustrates the need to honor and enshrine the roles  that both Memphis and Nashville have played in the evolution of R&B, much of which had coincided with the accelerated evolution of domestic issues spanning the mid-late '50s (during the last 2 state-hoods) and the 1960s.  I can understand that contemporaries of R&B easily can overlook this epic, since it well precedes them.

 

-==-

[Neigeville2]

 

 

http://www.nashvilleledger.com/editorial/ArticleEmail.aspx?id=75052&print=1

 

I agree with everything this guy says.

I agree as well.  Great article, I'm glad there are people like this out there.  I especially like that he appreciates how rental housing and affordable housing is being destroyed, and how this elitism creates traffic problems.

[Neigeville2]

My GF hails from Memphis and everytime we go back I am in awe of how different the architecture is from Nashville's.  They're subtle differences but they're ones that I notice quite clearly. 

 

The differences aren't even that subtle.  What I love about Memphis and what is almost absent in Nashville is just regular city streets with sidewalks and residences and businesses up to that sidewalk.  What happened to Nashville that we don't have this?  If it works, here is a city street in Memphis that illustrates what I'm talking about.  Is there anyplace in Nashville like this?

 

  

[titanhog]

Does the state have a "music trail"...or something similar?  Something to promote to tourists?  I can't imagine another state in the U.S. that has as much history in music as Tennessee.  It seems it would be smart to promote a "trail" or places to visit (including all museums within the state), especially to people outside of the U.S.

 

Can you imagine the people who maybe love country music and come to Nashville but don't know about all of the other places in TN?  Or the ones who love Elvis and just go to Memphis?  True music fans who are taking a "music vacation" may love to see all of the major music stops in TN.

[Paramount747]

I have spent time in Memphis. I was not overly impressed. I think it was the people. I went to a Tennessee Oilers game there, and they were booed by the locals. 

 

I remember the Memphis Grizzlies were looking at Nashville and Then Governor Phil Bredesen basically gave them to Memphis because we already had 2 major league teams. He thought it would be great for Memphis. Memphis actually hated Bredesen for that initially. They did not want his "charity".

 

The attitude of the people when I was in the hotel business was one of disdain for Nashville, especially from the Memphis State Legislators that stayed in my hotel.

 

I am sure the people there are actually nice and hospitable, but that never came off to me when they visited in the hotel, and ironically I got the same vibe from people who were from Birmingham as well.

[dxfret]

Comparing Nashville to Memphis is truly a tale of two cities.

By almost every measure, Nashville has far eclipsed Memphis.

Memphis has a lot of negatives, especially a very high crime rate.

The population of Memphis is much poorer and is not growing. People are leaving Memphis and even the suburbs of Mississippi and Arkansas show only slight population growth.

Compared to Nashville and Middle TN, there is little major economic development in Memphis. The skyline of downtown Memphis looks almost exactly the same as it did 30 years ago.

Just compare the two airports: BNA had a record breaking 10.6 million passengers last year; with 300+ flights per day; MEM had 3.6 million passengers and 85 flights per day. FedEx may be great for cargo, but not for people.

Nashville is booming with growth and development. Memphis is a city in decline.

[nashvillwill]

All of the "big 4" cities of TN could really benefit each other by working together, and the best way we could do that is by funding and building an inner-state rail network. Sure, Nashville may be the economic/cultural hub of the state, but the other 3 have a lot to offer in their own ways. I love the idea of a music trail. Knox-Mem-Nash, would be the main focus of this, but Chattanooga, would simply explode if it were a stop along a Nash-ATL rail connection. It really baffles me as to how this idea isn't even under serious consideration in the state.

[rookzie]

The differences aren't even that subtle.  What I love about Memphis and what is almost absent in Nashville is just regular city streets with sidewalks and residences and businesses up to that sidewalk.  What happened to Nashville that we don't have this?  If it works, here is a city street in Memphis that illustrates what I'm talking about.  Is there anyplace in Nashville like this?

 

Remember (whether or not you may be aware), Memphis was considerably more mature in its infrastructure development than was Nashville, and that mainly might have been a result of the commercialism on the Miss.River and the fact that during the early 20th century, at least 8 separate railroads served that city (which had lasted from 1900 at least through the mid-1960s), far more activity than which had served Nashville.  Having all this diversity in passenger and freight transportation (including much more passenger train and river traffic even during the 1930s), Memphis connected to more urbanized areas than did Nashville (Tulsa, Shreveport, Little Rock, Texarkana, Dallas, St. Louis, Chicago, Evansville, Jackson [MS], NOLA, as well as others that also connected to Nashville: B'ham, Louisville, Chatta., Knoxv'l), as well as to Nashville itself.  Memphis even had a direct passenger connection to Wash. DC and the mid-Atlantic corridor until 1968 (mentioned in the Mass Transit forum last spring concerning Chattanooga urban rail study), something Nashville never had.  In all, Memphis just seemed to have been the right place at the right time to foster all this infrastructure development.

 

Even Sears-Roebuck must have sensed a market surge, when it constructed a huge retail building (the Sears Crosstown Bldg - an Art Deco style tower) in Memphis, a building much larger than the big one that had been the Sears in Nashville in 1936 (the abandoned structure on the SE corner of 8th and Church, now awaiting demolition for the new Fed courthouse, replaced in 1956 with a new center on 7th and LaFayette.  Memphis also was just north of soil rich, agricultural area of eastern Arkansas and northwestern Mississippi, known as the Mississippi Delta Region (not to be confused with the mouth of the Mississippi River - the Mississippi River Delta in Placquemines Parish, LA, at the Gulf of Mexico),  This region, one of most agriculturally fertile in the nation, brought humongous amounts of commercial business activity and labor into Memphis, for both primary and collateral businesses.

 

This may be one reason that the streets generally are wider in Memphis and that the original urban roadway grid is much larger than that of Nashville.  All I'm saying here is that Memphis had developed a much more robust infrastructure of urban roadways, railways, and multiple-family dwellings (as evidenced by your provided photo), than did Nashville, during the formative years preceding the Great Depression.  This period was typical for the evolvement of the currently established urban inner-city of most older mid-sized cities.  Most of it has been allowed to fall into a state of decay, obviously, for Memphis, which indeed does have some interesting old structures, boarded up, but yet left untouched by the wrecking ball.

 

Still Nashville does have some really nice old stuff, like the Westboro at 32nd and West End, and the Lee on the 2100 block of Hayes St., but these are becoming fewer and scattered.  Yet they don't abut the sidewalk, as do the ones like in the photo that you provided, except for perhaps one side of structure (as that on the corner of Louise Ave. and Hayes St., which is not the same as the sidewalk alignment as you mentioned.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.150395,-86.804139,3a,75y,22.6h,86.45t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1szp4-aUSEx0RKNK4SKraNRQ!2e0

 

For most of the remaining old ones, the streets which these units face are still narrow compared to those in Memphis.

 

-==-

Edited August 18, 2014 by rookzie

[arkitekte]

Just compare the two airports: BNA had a record breaking 10.6 million passengers last year; with 300+ flights per day; MEM had 3.6 million passengers and 85 flights per day. FedEx may be great for cargo, but not for people.

 

That goes back to the comment that I made where Memphis city leaders aren't focusing on the issues that would increase tourism. The Memphis Airport Authority (which was/is a mess and includes (or at least used to) the mayor's wife...smh) put all of their eggs in Delta's basket and ran pretty much every other legacy and low cost carrier off. I flew out of MEM a few weeks ago in the afternoon on a Tuesday and it was sad how empty and quiet it was. I came back last Thursday night and it was a complete ghost town. The only people moving through the concourses were the 100 or so on my flight. 

 

The City has done a good job at hiding their screw ups because they have/had the majority of Memphians thinking that the airport was in a downward spiral because of Delta. Idk if any of you came across the Facebook or Twitter pages titled "Delta Does Memphis", but most people were on a Delta bashing trip rather than on a "let's replace the airport authority board because they brought this upon us" trip.  Now Frontier having a couple of weekly flights to Denver is 6 o'clock news worthy. 

 

I feel like this is a complete Memphis bashing thread now, but a lot of the times the negatives outweigh the positives and it literally pisses me off that the city isn't doing much of anything to correct it other than bending over for various companies and handing out tax breaks (International Paper) or completely disregarding design guidelines (Bass Pro) to gain or keep certain businesses. I understand that's necessary in certain situations, but now seemingly it's the precedent for any new business wanting to relocate to Memphis or threatening to leave Memphis.

Edited August 18, 2014 by arkitekte

[titanhog]

Don't mean for it to be a Memphis bashing thread.  I'm pretty sure most everything that's been written above is truthful, yet somewhat subjective as far as personal experience on some comments.

 

All in all...Memphis has a lot of potential to regain some of its stature...but they have some things to overcome.  One of the first things is the terrible reputation it has built regarding crime.  It's hard to turn that perception around.

[nashvillwill]

I'll switch to another city in the region that is also falling behind.....Little Rock. My wife is from LR, so I visit often. That town has a tremendous stock of historic neighborhoods just falling into disrepair. And I'm talking complete neighborhoods with walkable commercial districts among the hoods. There are beautiful Victorians and Foursquares there that are 4k sq ft, which you can pick up for about $30k-40k. If I had any desire to live in that town (it's a beautiful city), I would buy a whole block and flip it. Go block by block until I had revamped a whole neighborhood. I'm talking about billions of $'s worth of inventory (if at East Nashville prices).

[titanhog]

I'll switch to another city in the region that is also falling behind.....Little Rock. My wife is from LR, so I visit often. That town has a tremendous stock of historic neighborhoods just falling into disrepair. And I'm talking complete neighborhoods with walkable commercial districts among the hoods. There are beautiful Victorians and Foursquares there that are 4k sq ft, which you can pick up for about $30k-40k. If I had any desire to live in that town (it's a beautiful city), I would buy a whole block and flip it. Go block by block until I had revamped a whole neighborhood. I'm talking about billions of $'s worth of inventory (if at East Nashville prices).

Yeah...I grew up about 1.5 hours from Little Rock.  Just like a lot of metro areas, people moved out to the suburbs, pulling a lot of money to the suburbs with them.

[East Side Urbanite]

Little Rock is a wonderful city. And they have a trolley, which connects downtown to North Little Rock. I like LR.

 

WW

The differences aren't even that subtle.  What I love about Memphis and what is almost absent in Nashville is just regular city streets with sidewalks and residences and businesses up to that sidewalk.  What happened to Nashville that we don't have this?  If it works, here is a city street in Memphis that illustrates what I'm talking about.  Is there anyplace in Nashville like this?

 

  

 

 

Yes, you see this everywhere in Memphis.

 

WW

[nashmoney]

Live on the Green rearranges setup after big turnout

 

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/industries/music/2014/08/19/live-green-rearranges-setup-big-turnout/14291325/

 

Last week's crowd was estimated between 16,000 and 18,000 people. That's huge for a Thursday night.

 

I would think once the new amphitheatre is complete they would move it there. Since the stage and lights and everything will already be there.

 

I posted the pics because they look pretty cool. I like the lightning bolt on the side of the UBS tower!

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2014 by nashmoney

[grilled_cheese]

They should've moved it years ago.  I've been to atleast one every year, and as the article states, it just gets worse and worse.  Not sure why they don't just move it to the riverfront.

[Vrtigo]

I was down in the middle of that mess... HUGE crowd, and not particularly pleasant. The whole thing felt like a mosh pit from my high school days.

[nashvillwill]

I had to drive from the east side to Green Hills today at rush hour. Took me an 1:20 to get the ten miles there. This town is so FUBAR when it comes to traffic control, road design, signal coordination. As Jimi Hemdrix would say, it's "a frustrating mess".

I am honestly stupefied how people can continue to deny that we need mass transit.

We are getting ourselves into a mess that we won't be able to dig out of. It won't be long at all before people start abandoning the "It City" because of its inability to solve its own problems.

On a side note, I sat on the newly stripped Church street bridge for a solid ten minutes. Saw dozens of people whiz about 40mph down the center "turn lane" to race to the end of the bridge. It's the most dangerous, design encouraged, activity I've ever seen. Seriously, if I was a cop. I would sit on that bridge, make my quota in one day, and get fat the rest of the month.

Edited August 20, 2014 by nashvillwill

[bigeasy]

Could they fit that many people at the amphitheater? I thought it was just being built for around 6,500. 

[Guest]

The new Church Street Bridge is horrific... center lane is useless..... encourages reckless behavior.... metro planning dept. should be taken out to the shed and spanked

I had to drive from the east side to Green Hills today at rush hour. Took me an 1:20 to get the ten miles there. This town is so FUBAR when it comes to traffic control, road design, signal coordination. As Jimi Hemdrix would say, it's "a frustrating mess".

I am honestly stupefied how people can continue to deny that we need mass transit.

We are getting ourselves into a mess that we won't be able to dig out of. It won't be long at all before people start abandoning the "It City" because of its inability to solve its own problems.


On a side note, I sat on the newly stripped Church street bridge for a solid ten minutes. Saw dozens of people whiz about 40mph down the center "turn lane" to race to the end of the bridge. It's the most dangerous, design encouraged, activity I've ever seen. Seriously, if I was a cop. I would sit on that bridge, make my quota in one day, and get fat the rest of the month.