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Red Line Regional Rail


thetrick

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This just in, NCDOT calls Iredell County Comission morons:

“They had a variety of legitimate concerns that have been talked about but not nailed down specifically in a way they can understand and support,” Morris said. “Every local government approaches things somewhat differently and we need to find the right words to cover the bases for all of the nine entities.”

and expresses some non-specific hope that their concerns can be effectively addressed before the project approval deadline according to Huntersvile Herald

http://www.huntersvi...r-rail-leaders/

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according to the local (Lake area) papers, the red line is "not" dead in the water. The Iredel County commissioners want another few months for a more comprehensive report. Alternatively, there is also talk of possibly not running the red line as far as planned, maybe to Davidson. Unfortunately, the rail company said that there haven't been agreements reached as reported in the media. It is a mess, but it isn't dead at this time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sooo Meck and Cats have not been talking to the railroad (Norfolk Southern)??

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/01/30/2970439/norfolk-southern-questions-red.html

I always had wondered why they never seemed to talk about specifics in regards to NS and why NS people were not at the meetings, but I just thought they (Meck and CATS) had it under control. Turns out they do not.

NS owns the tracks!! How in the world could you propose this idea with out NS being in 100% agreement? This is insane. I am a big supporter of the red line, but this it a pretty big screw up on the city’s part.

TH

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For some reason I am thinking that the city was waiting to talk to NS last....cause securing the right of way is one of the last things you do before construction begins. this is pretty insane though I agree. the city makes all these grand plans for something they do not own!

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Especially since unlike any other plan requiring right of way, railroad land cannot be acquired by eminent domain.

I can't help but think, though, that maybe they always assumed back when fed money was sought, that it would never happen, and then briefly it seemed plausible with the newer financing plans, and they saw an opening to pile on with bad news after Mooresville leaders didn't want it.

It is a shame that railroad companies are so opposed to passenger rail. But they seem to always be against it.

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I get a feeling that the freight railroads will be more passenger oriented when it starts making them money.

I noticed that in one of the past articles they mentioned using Amtrak to run the red line. Now looking back I know why, the freight railroads are required by law to allow Amtrak to operate on their rails at a reasonable cost. This would be one way to force NS to allow the project, but it does not make for a very cooperative partner.

TH

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I feel like the media has painted this very much as the "final draft" "make or break" version of the red line, when in reality this has been a series of presentations to the major players in the red line's future. They're going to go back to the drawing board, revise and update the plans, and go back to the players later. I am still bullish on the red line's future.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Norfolk Southern loves to bash the red line: http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2012/02/red-line-plans-fatally-flawed.html?ed=2012-02-21&s=article_du&ana=e_du_pub&page=all

An executive at track owner Norfolk Southern Corp. sent an email to the N.C. Department of Transportation today that called the state-backed plan introduced last year “fatally flawed” and “based upon assumptions ... that are no longer valid.”
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I am going to speculate, but I bet that NS has a problem with operating freight on the line with passenger service. I believe that the plan from city was to have freight operate during the night while passenger trains operate during the day. While this might sound reasonable it is not. Freight operations don't involve just the RR they also involve all the businesses that are served by the RR, which means many of those businesses would have to have staff on hand at night to receive shipments from the RR. Or more simply put NS does not like the city changing the way it can deliver to it’s customers in a negative way. If you restrict how NS can operate you limit it’s potential customers. To make the Red Line able to handle freight and passenger service at all hours would require a lot more $$$ put into sidings and signals.

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But, really, where is all this supposed freight coming from? Lowes? That's a corporate HQ. All the mills have long since been shut down and most of the towns, like Charlotte, promote office and service type industry. Nobody really wants heavy industrial in their backyard. It's a rare day now to see a train with any kind of cargo using those rails.

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But, really, where is all this supposed freight coming from? Lowes? That's a corporate HQ. All the mills have long since been shut down and most of the towns, like Charlotte, promote office and service type industry. Nobody really wants heavy industrial in their backyard. It's a rare day now to see a train with any kind of cargo using those rails.

It's not so much about some big customer, it's the dozens of smaller customers that litter the line. Like Pactive Corp, which has a dozen cars at their site or FXI which has about 8 cars. I found these companies looking at a very small part of the line. Don't forget Gerdau Ameristeel's steel mill which is the bulk of the lines traffic south of Mooresville. NS upgraded the rail between Gerdau and the charlotte yard just to handle the heavy loads into and out of this plant. The Line up to just south of Mooresville is served daily M-F from Charlotte, Mooresville and north is served by a local out of Spencer. This is actually pretty busy for a line only hauling local traffic.

I am all for the red line, but the city should have had the railroad operations as a top priority, and that just does not seem to have been the case.

TH

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It's not so much about some big customer, it's the dozens of smaller customers that litter the line. Like Pactive Corp, which has a dozen cars at their site or FXI which has about 8 cars. I found these companies looking at a very small part of the line. Don't forget Gerdau Ameristeel's steel mill which is the bulk of the lines traffic south of Mooresville. NS upgraded the rail between Gerdau and the charlotte yard just to handle the heavy loads into and out of this plant. The Line up to just south of Mooresville is served daily M-F from Charlotte, Mooresville and north is served by a local out of Spencer. This is actually pretty busy for a line only hauling local traffic.

I am all for the red line, but the city should have had the railroad operations as a top priority, and that just does not seem to have been the case.

TH

I'm with you on this one. Commuter rail is an important aspect of our transit development to the north. But I understand NS's position completely. Not sure why this wasn't cleared up prior to voting and all that other stuff.

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I wonder how much of NS's resistance is in response to increased passenger traffic on their main line from CLT to Greensboro. NS leases that line from the NCRR (with a lease clause that NCDOT my run passenger trains) and uses it in place of its other NS route through NC running from Winston-Salem to Moresville to Charlotte (the southern end of which is the Red line). Given this its possible that NS is using its resistance to the red line as a negotiating tactic to either 1) limit passenger growth on the NCRR (perhaps prevent commuter service on the line) or 2) protect the O line (the red line) such that it could be easily converted into a replacement north-south main line if NS decided the NCRR was no longer a helpful landlord -- if the red line was successful in creating a dense commuter service it would be tougher for NS to begin using the route as a freight main line.

Its also possible that NS does not look that far into the future and they are simply being tough negotiators.

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It is a shame that railroad companies are so opposed to passenger rail. But they seem to always be against it.

Norfolk Southern is in business to make money- just like most every for-profit business is. It makes money on hauling freight and related activities. It loses money on passenger trains; Amtrak doesn't pay Norfolk Southern the full costs of keeping its track maintained so that Amtrak can run 79-mph trains on it (as freight trains are much slower).

Just how many business are "for" activities that cost them money? How many people would like losing money, too?

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There is a very thoughtful and substantive discussion of Norfolk and Southern's concerns and desires for the red line at the Lake Normal Citizen: http://www.lakenorma...s-it-mean?.html

Very good article, I think that frames up the current issues very well.

For NS this goes 2 ways.

1. The red line idea dies and things stay as they are and NS has the option to do whatever they want with the line in the future.

2. We go ahead with the Red lIne and NS gets a free upgrade to it's trackage. They continue to operate local freight as they do now, but faster and better. The catch is they can never use the route for through traffic because it just can't support that with the frequent passenger service.

Never underestimate how difficult it is to keep passenger trains on time, especially local commuter trains which passengers expect to be no more than say 10 minutes late. It's pretty much impossible to do on a mostly single track route with concurrent freight operations.

TH

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100 feet for a double track right of way? No way. 50 feet should be plenty. Probably the most constrained location on the line (downtown Huntersville) is already partially double tracked. There's plenty of room to completely double track the NCRR, if necessary. But, it really shouldn't be necessary, given the amount of traffic.

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The anti-transit folks in Iredell County shouldn't gloat too much about Norfolk Southern's recent actions. It's a safe bet that the feasibility of the Red Line still has a better and/or more near-future outlook than does that of adding lanes to I-77 across the Lake Norman causeway. Most importantly, the future of I-77 needs greater certainty on the parallel Red Line for such a highway project to advance.

Running passenger trains on a line with limited freight traffic remains feasible, albeit a tougher negotiation now than previously expected with heavyweight NS. However, the environmental documentation for impacting the Lake north of Meck Towns will also be a complex negotiation with multiple NEPA-empowered agencies. And if that documentation has uncertainty about the parallel Red Line, the highway's review will only become more complex as well.

Put another way, I-77 is likely to have an easier environmental review, if it can be successfully shown that BOTH the Red Line and added capacity (even if toll lanes) are BOTH needed. Otherwise, the Lake-impacting I-77 may lose the uncertainty battle.

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The anti-transit folks in Iredell County love to pretend they are in some different world, separate from Charlotte. They laugh at those in Mecklenburg County over taxes, scoff at any initiative the city tries to implement, and laud themselves over their fiscal policies and "small-town" livelihood. That is, except when being a suburb of Charlotte benefits them in anyway...which is in virtually every other category. It drives me nuts. Don't act like you're not part of the metro area only when it's your turn to chip in to the metro's development, then try to leech off the city for everything else.

Rant over.

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