Red Line Regional Rail

[southslider]

BRT on the planned HOT lanes would be a lot closer to Statesville Ave/Rd than CR on or LRT along the NSRR O Line.

[ChessieCat]

I wonder if a tram-train would work for the Red Line. They are essentially light rail sized trains, but they are legally able to run on regular tracks, IIRC. Austin's Capital Metro Rail is like that.

 

Glad you mentioned Tram-Train.  The city of Karlsruhe in Germany pioneered it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_model

 

Ironically, the Charlotte region and Karlsruhe have a working group to discuss emerging technology, but it is focused almost exclusively on the Energy sector.  Transportation is nowhere to be found:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/print-edition/2012/09/14/delegation-to-germany-to-tout-new.html?page=all

"He foresees a chance to use the Karlsruhe and Charlotte as the twin pillars of an economic bridge across the Atlantic, based on the energy industry."

 

IMHO, if the Red Line backers want to save their project, they should stop spending $$ on domestic consultant after consultant and simply ask Karlsruhe to propose a solution.

 

P.S. 

Even UNCC and KIT have signed an MoU, but again it's all about Energy

http://epic.uncc.edu/news/unc-charlotte-signs-key-memorandum-understanding-karlsruhe-institute-technology

"The MOU extends the reach of UNC Charlotte in Germany and Europe, elevating EPIC's global role in the transfer of new findings, innovative ideas and know-how to industry and society from applied research".  

Hmmm... isn't  Tram-Train an "innovative" idea??? LOL

[dubone]

Electrification for what I'm seeing for the first time, the tram-train, seems to be a major expense on such a long corridor with pitiful ridership projections.  I can see suggestions that would reduce costs, but that would increase costs over the current design, which is untenable.  

 

It would blow some minds in Charlotte, though, if the train raced down from Mooresville and then turned onto tram (streetcar) tracks down Trade, on the loop around the arena, and down the Lynx tracks to 485 in the South?   That would solve a lot of problems in our transit plans, but it unfortunately does not solve the fact that the Red Line corridor is pitiful for ridership.  There is a dearth of population along the corridor until Derita because it is so dominated by industry, and then it is highly suburban.  I am totally for raising the bar on the designs for the corridors, but it is one of those things that I just don't see justifying itself on that line.

 

However, maybe it could be the saving technology for the southeast line, where the core east-west corridor near downtown is a streetcar/tram infrastructure, but the only real way to make it out to Matthews and high growth Union county is the CSX line.   Again, electrification is an issue, though, but on a corridor like the SouthEast, where density would support light rail, there may be value.

[TotalLamer]

Electrification for what I'm seeing for the first time, the tram-train, seems to be a major expense on such a long corridor with pitiful ridership projections.  I can see suggestions that would reduce costs, but that would increase costs over the current design, which is untenable.  

 

It would blow some minds in Charlotte, though, if the train raced down from Mooresville and then turned onto tram (streetcar) tracks down Trade, on the loop around the arena, and down the Lynx tracks to 485 in the South?   That would solve a lot of problems in our transit plans, but it unfortunately does not solve the fact that the Red Line corridor is pitiful for ridership.  There is a dearth of population along the corridor until Derita because it is so dominated by industry, and then it is highly suburban.  I am totally for raising the bar on the designs for the corridors, but it is one of those things that I just don't see justifying itself on that line.

 

However, maybe it could be the saving technology for the southeast line, where the core east-west corridor near downtown is a streetcar/tram infrastructure, but the only real way to make it out to Matthews and high growth Union county is the CSX line.   Again, electrification is an issue, though, but on a corridor like the SouthEast, where density would support light rail, there may be value.

 

You could never electrify the CSX line towards Monroe because it wouldn't provide sufficient vertical clearance for double-stacked intermodal trains.

[LKN704]

Austin has a commuter tram-train operation, and it isn't electrified and it runs on tracks that are also used by freight trains.

[ChessieCat]

Austin has a commuter tram-train operation, and it isn't electrified and it runs on tracks that are also used by freight trains.

^Correct: there are three Tram-Train systems in North America: Austin, NJT River Line and Ottawa.  They all operate low-floor DMU's.  However, the Austin and NJT lines can only operate passenger service when the freight lines do not.  Commingled service is not permitted by the FRA.  

 

 

Electrification for what I'm seeing for the first time, the tram-train, seems to be a major expense on such a long corridor with pitiful ridership projections.  I can see suggestions that would reduce costs, but that would increase costs over the current design, which is untenable.  

 

It would blow some minds in Charlotte, though, if the train raced down from Mooresville and then turned onto tram (streetcar) tracks down Trade, on the loop around the arena, and down the Lynx tracks to 485 in the South?   That would solve a lot of problems in our transit plans, but it unfortunately does not solve the fact that the Red Line corridor is pitiful for ridership.  There is a dearth of population along the corridor until Derita because it is so dominated by industry, and then it is highly suburban.  I am totally for raising the bar on the designs for the corridors, but it is one of those things that I just don't see justifying itself on that line.

 

However, maybe it could be the saving technology for the southeast line, where the core east-west corridor near downtown is a streetcar/tram infrastructure, but the only real way to make it out to Matthews and high growth Union county is the CSX line.   Again, electrification is an issue, though, but on a corridor like the SouthEast, where density would support light rail, there may be value.

 

 ^Dual-mode tram-trains exist in Europe.  Indeed it would be cool to see the train race down from Mooresville in diesel mode to Gateway, then raise its pantograph to run in electric mode to Pineville... 

 

DMU service from Mooresville to Matthews during peak hours may one day have the ridership and a transfer station is built at the BLE at Alpha Mill.  However IMHO NS and CSX would never forfeit the right to operate during peak hours...    

[orulz]

You could never electrify the CSX line towards Monroe because it wouldn't provide sufficient vertical clearance for double-stacked intermodal trains.

There is no reason double stacked freight and overhead wires are inherently incompatible, the wires just need to be higher. However, this can cause issues with clearance at overpasses.

[seth0423]

There is no reason double stacked freight and overhead wires are inherently incompatible, the wires just need to be higher. However, this can cause issues with clearance at overpasses.

Which can also cause restrictions with the height of the pantograph on the train. I don't know if anyone would like to see wires 20 feet in the air...

[15895]

As an LKN resident, the red line topic is so depressing considering its dead. I feel like of all places rail in the suburbs (including Charlotte), it would be best here considering our development patterns & standards.

II wish there was some way to make the red line possible.

[Third Strike]

As an LKN resident, the red line topic is so depressing considering its dead. I feel like of all places rail in the suburbs (including Charlotte), it would be best here considering our development patterns & standards.

II wish there was some way to make the red line possible.

 

Seems like the only solution is to build a parallel track next to the Norfolk line, which would be very costly. Though, I still think the best intern solution is to create a BRT line on the new toll lanes on I-77. Better than nothing.

[15895]

Seems like the only solution is to build a parallel track next to the Norfolk line, which would be very costly. Though, I still think the best intern solution is to create a BRT line on the new toll lanes on I-77. Better than nothing.

 

 

I don't think its better than nothing because the red line would bring huge TOD development to Huntersville, Cornelius & Davidson. More so than I could imagine rail would do for the other suburbs including Mooresville. If it's simply just a mode for transportation, 77X & 48X do the job. And their stop & Rides are probably much more convenient than a BRT route would be (would BRT actually come on Sam Furr, Statesville, Catawba?) I say hold out for rail. No matter how many decades.

[MilZ]

I don't think its better than nothing because the red line would bring huge TOD development to Huntersville, Cornelius & Davidson. More so than I could imagine rail would do for the other suburbs including Mooresville. If it's simply just a mode for transportation, 77X & 48X do the job. And their stop & Rides are probably much more convenient than a BRT route would be (would BRT actually come on Sam Furr, Statesville, Catawba?) I say hold out for rail. No matter how many decades.

As a person who grew up in and (until recently) worked in Mooresville, I just want to point out that downtown would greatly benefit from the RedLine. There were many mixed use projects that were proposed mid-2000s that have since been retracted due to issues with financing and lack of cooperation from Iredell County. Urban growth is still possible in downtown, which is nothing like what you see around I-77 and the lake.

[southslider]

Aside from land use, a key challenge with BRT on HOT lanes is that the Private Concessionaire's design doesn't provide much access within Huntersville (new lanes would be sealed off between 485 and Cornelius). Any CATS project would need to build extra access ramps to bridges that today lack any Interstate access, like Stumptown Rd. And since the HOT lanes project is already awarded to the Concessionaire (and challenged in court), NCDOT is unwilling to re-open the design to any added environmental analysis or scrutiny. In other words, don't expect an easy BRT project on I-77 anytime soon.

[seth0423]

I don't think its better than nothing because the red line would bring huge TOD development to Huntersville, Cornelius & Davidson. More so than I could imagine rail would do for the other suburbs including Mooresville. If it's simply just a mode for transportation, 77X & 48X do the job. And their stop & Rides are probably much more convenient than a BRT route would be (would BRT actually come on Sam Furr, Statesville, Catawba?) I say hold out for rail. No matter how many decades.

 

Rail obviously has the advantage in the situation to Lake Norman, and if CATS would run more than 4 round trips per day, they would be getting more than 3,000 rides. NorthStar, in Minneapolis, runs 7 stations and 6 round trips per day. This train was seen as a plan for a relief to the I-94 Corridor in Minnesota. This is virtually the same situation here, except BNSF is more forgiving. 

 

With dubone's proposed idea of a train station north of I-277, the O-line ROW could easily be tied in.

[dubone]

Seems like the only solution is to build a parallel track next to the Norfolk line, which would be very costly. Though, I still think the best intern solution is to create a BRT line on the new toll lanes on I-77. Better than nothing.

 

The toll lanes are a BRT line.   The Red Line's main audience was traditional bed-room-community commuters to the CBD.   By having managed lanes dynamically price the tolls in order to manage the numbers of vehicles to that the lanes will always go a minimum speed.   Multiple bus lines can collect from various points in the LKN area and then use the new lanes of 77 to get uptown.  

 

The rail corridor will always be there.   So I think the Red Line should remain on the books until such time as the area grows enough to support it.  In the mean time we should focus on the express buses and the managed toll lanes.   The express buses now draw about 1000 riders, compared to 4000 riders expected for the Red Line in 2030.  With additional buses and collection points, and added density to the north, plus reliable transit time provided by the 77 HOT lanes,  you could easily see the 2030 bus ridership be 2-3000.   

 

 

Since the streetcar has been on my mind a lot this week, I will remind everyone that the poor little streetcar that many in the suburbs like to hate has daily ridership projections of 1500 for Phase I and 5700 for Phase II in 2034.   Consider that: a 4 mile streetcar costing a combined $187m ($87m local, $100m Feds) has more riders expected than the 25 mile long Red Line costing more than double at $416m ($416m local, $0 Feds).  That cost was before Norfolk Southern fought the use of their tracks, increasing costs by $215m to $631m ($631m local, $0 Fed).     So locally, it is $631m for 4000 daily riders in 2030 versus $87m for 5700 daily riders.      

 

Not to go too far down the Red Line versus Streetcar path, but the Metropolitan Transit Commission, which has a lot of representation from suburban towns consistently voted to decline CATS funding for the Charlotte streetcar, but constantly move the Red Line forward despite all the obstacles, including feasibility studies that showed it was so useless that it was ineligible for federal funding.  So the Charlotte Area Transit System will put almost no money into the streetcar, but was going to have its budget slammed to support the Red Line.  

 

 

I believe the Red Line will have a part to play in the city in the future, but it should not be prioritized above corridors that will draw significantly more riders due to the density along the entire corridor.  The express bus using the 77 managed HOT lanes will provide very good service for the foreseeable future, and can even be oriented to park and rides that will eventually be red line stations so that the towns can continue to focus density to that area to boost numbers for the project to eventually be realized. 

[15895]

The toll lanes are a BRT line. The Red Line's main audience was traditional bed-room-community commuters to the CBD. By having managed lanes dynamically price the tolls in order to manage the numbers of vehicles to that the lanes will always go a minimum speed. Multiple bus lines can collect from various points in the LKN area and then use the new lanes of 77 to get uptown.

The rail corridor will always be there. So I think the Red Line should remain on the books until such time as the area grows enough to support it. In the mean time we should focus on the express buses and the managed toll lanes. The express buses now draw about 1000 riders, compared to 4000 riders expected for the Red Line in 2030. With additional buses and collection points, and added density to the north, plus reliable transit time provided by the 77 HOT lanes, you could easily see the 2030 bus ridership be 2-3000.

Since the streetcar has been on my mind a lot this week, I will remind everyone that the poor little streetcar that many in the suburbs like to hate has daily ridership projections of 1500 for Phase I and 5700 for Phase II in 2034. Consider that: a 4 mile streetcar costing a combined $187m ($87m local, $100m Feds) has more riders expected than the 25 mile long Red Line costing more than double at $416m ($416m local, $0 Feds). That cost was before Norfolk Southern fought the use of their tracks, increasing costs by $215m to $631m ($631m local, $0 Fed). So locally, it is $631m for 4000 daily riders in 2030 versus $87m for 5700 daily riders.

Not to go too far down the Red Line versus Streetcar path, but the Metropolitan Transit Commission, which has a lot of representation from suburban towns consistently voted to decline CATS funding for the Charlotte streetcar, but constantly move the Red Line forward despite all the obstacles, including feasibility studies that showed it was so useless that it was ineligible for federal funding. So the Charlotte Area Transit System will put almost no money into the streetcar, but was going to have its budget slammed to support the Red Line.

I believe the Red Line will have a part to play in the city in the future, but it should not be prioritized above corridors that will draw significantly more riders due to the density along the entire corridor. The express bus using the 77 managed HOT lanes will provide very good service for the foreseeable future, and can even be oriented to park and rides that will eventually be red line stations so that the towns can continue to focus density to that area to boost numbers for the project to eventually be realized.

. Good information