Red Line Regional Rail

[LKN704]

I live on the Brawley Peninsula in Mooresville, and I found that the most interesting thing I found was that most people I spoke to were FOR the RLRR. I studied transit planning in college, and I'll tell you that the current CATS expansion project kinda reminds me of BART in San Francisco. For example, when BART was being built, Marin County (county North of San Francisco across from GG Bridge) backed out of the project due to "costs", even though most of its citizens were for the project. Now today, the government of Marin County wants BART, but it is simply too expensive now to extend the system across the Golden Gate Bridge (a 1990s estimate put the extension at 3 billion dollars).

The same thing will happen in Iredell County if we don't plan for it now. CATS WILL build the RLRR, Iredell county can just be excluded, and will lose out in the long run.

I think something similar happened in Pineville with the Blue Line. Pineville didnt want to pay for it, and now the city wishes they took part in the project.

[kermit]

WFAE has a thoughtful analysis of the red line capacity study. It appears that it may take "years"

http://www.wfae.org/wfae/1_87_316.cfm?action=display&id=8815

[Norm2]

WFAE has a thoughtful analysis of the red line capacity study. It appears that it may take "years"

http://www.wfae.org/...display&id=8815

Sounds like to me Norfolk-Southern as a company is just being an pouty Brat. I am sure that if the northern towns paid Norfolk-Southern a monthly "rent" for using the tracks, then the rail road company would be more open to letting passenger trains use the lines.

[DMann]

Just wondering....could the Red Line loop out of downtown Charlotte and head west to Gastonia? Seems to me that could be a popular extension.

[kermit]

^ yes, it is theoretically possible to run the red line on to Gastonia. When it stops at Gateway station it will be on the Norfolk Southern main line which runs past the airport to Gastonia. NS will however be reluctant to allow commuter rail on these tracks (NS is the owner of those tracks while the NC RR owns the tracks north of Gateway).

The Piedmont and Northern route is more commonly discussed as a route to Gastonia. This would be less direct and run through Mt Holly (and not connect to the airport). The state owns most of these tracks so the new traffic should not be a problem. However, the route would need extensive (and expensive) track refurbishing to achieve reasonable speeds and a short new segment of track connecting the two routes somewhere around BofA stadium. Gastonia is building a new station which can accomodate service on either line.

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/08/09/3442391/regional-rail-financial-plan-on.html

It's looking more and more uphill for the Red Line. I suppose there is a chance that it will still prove feasible, but I think that N-S may have added enough 'planned service' to keep transit out. We'll see, though.

[kermit]

There is an interesting looking article at the Mecklenburg Times where the Vermillion developer blames the absence of the Red Line for delays to his development projects. Unfortunately I am not a subscriber so I can only see the teaser for the article:

http://mecktimes.com/news/2012/10/28/thrown-off-track-vermillion-stops-waiting-for-the-red-line/

If we could amplify this developer 'activism' times 100 we might be able to generate some momentum.

[ajfunder]

I am a subscriber, he basically says that he is through waiting for the red line and will start his final phase of development. Although he still want's the red line, it is time to move forward with or without the red line.

[kermit]

I recently rode the Music City Star commuter rail in Nashville. Its fame comes from relatively low ridership (about 1,300 per day, there is very little but park and ride lots beyond its downtown terminal) and very low construction costs ($1.3 million per mile). Ridership was below expectations its first couple of years but it appears to be meeting expectations now. Unfortunately I saw no signs of TOD around its stops -- perhaps a symptom of its precarious status (low ridership threatened to kill the service after its first year).

 

Given the above I was not expecting much, however it really wasn't bad. The trains (refurb Metra coaches) were fine aside from really dirty windows and the single tracking was not a problem given the limited scheduling. The two, two car, trains that I rode were actually crowded and they seemed to function well, despite sharing the line with local freight. From the looks of the system it appears that the bulk of the $41 million used to develop the line was spent on upgrading the single track line to Class 3 (60 mph) condition.

 

I know that the current Red Line roadblock is the willingness of Norfolk Southern to play ball. Aside from that, I really have to wonder why CATS is proposing to spend more than 10x the cost of the Music City Star to get the Red Line running (IRRC CATS is proposing a similar schedule over a similar distance shared with a similar level of freight traffic).

 

Wouldn't it be better to have a cheap Red Line demonstrator project sooner than a gold-plated project much later? I'll bet Ron Carlee could find $40 million in the government center sofa cushions.

[southslider]

In my opinion, NCDOT is pursuing a public-private partnership for the wrong transportation project in North Meck.  P3 should be used on Red Line, not I-77.

[jednc]

In my opinion, NCDOT is pursuing a public-private partnership for the wrong transportation project in North Meck.  P3 should be used on Red Line, not I-77.

This line can't be built soon enough as far as I'm concerned.

[cltbwimob]

I really have to wonder why CATS is proposing to spend more than 10x the cost of the Music City Star to get the Red Line running (IRRC CATS is proposing a similar schedule over a similar distance shared with a similar level of freight traffic).

 

Wouldn't it be better to have a cheap Red Line demonstrator project sooner than a gold-plated project much later? I'll bet Ron Carlee could find $40 million in the government center sofa cushions.

I think in a lot of ways, Charlotte leadership does not think outside the box when dealing with transportation related issues. In the case of the red line they could use 3 and 4 car FRA compliant DMUs which would potentially allow for a few more stations as DMUs accelerate faster than a locomotive-coach setup. Adding stations could boost ridership projections and potentially make it more likely to get funding from the FTA. The line could also serve as a demonstrator project through strategic partnerships with companies such as Bombradier or Siemens who have not yet built FRA compliant DMUs but have shown interest in doing so. As a result, the line may be able to get financial help from those companies. These are just a few ways to potentially help fund this line.

[dubone]

It should not be the city of Charlotte that finds the money for this regardless of the project costs, as there is very little direct benefit to the city of Charlotte.  The only reason that the CITY of Charlotte had to find money for the streetcar is that the CATS authority (MTC) is skewed to suburban interests which favor a low ridership suburban commuting line over a high ridership urban circulator like the streetcar.

 

It would be nice if the ridership estimates were tremendously better than that of Nashville's line, but I think we have double or triple that number for estimates purely because of the higher price tag with increased frequency and stations.  There is an opportunity for TOD on this line, though, as the town centers of the north Meck towns are all relatively desirable, but I am not sure how that compares to Nashville.  

 

In the NorthEast, there is a solid network of intercity rail that stops for commuters in towns outlying the core cities in the metros.  SEPTA, NJT, LIRR, etc., are useful at bringing residents of suburban communities into the core city transit systems or directly to their jobs in the central business district.   North Carolina has some of that provided with the line to Raleigh/Greensboro, but overall the Carolinas lack that infrastructure that would allow us to hop on the train to Atlanta, Columbia, Asheville, Wilmington, Hickory, and towns in between for commutes or otherwise.  

 

Overall, this seems like it is a good first step in building out that type of infrastructure, but I am very skeptical that the ridership on it will be enough to keep it from being a laughing stock.   It is the supreme irony of our culture that the only transit that suburban conservatives support are commuter lines to the suburbs which turn out being long lines with low ridership that confirm the charges of boondoggles.  

[cltbwimob]

It should not be the city of Charlotte that finds the money for this regardless of the project costs, as there is very little direct benefit to the city of Charlotte.  The only reason that the CITY of Charlotte had to find money for the streetcar is that the CATS authority (MTC) is skewed to suburban interests which favor a low ridership suburban commuting line over a high ridership urban circulator like the streetcar.

 

It would be nice if the ridership estimates were tremendously better than that of Nashville's line, but I think we have double or triple that number for estimates purely because of the higher price tag with increased frequency and stations.  There is an opportunity for TOD on this line, though, as the town centers of the north Meck towns are all relatively desirable, but I am not sure how that compares to Nashville.  

 

In the NorthEast, there is a solid network of intercity rail that stops for commuters in towns outlying the core cities in the metros.  SEPTA, NJT, LIRR, etc., are useful at bringing residents of suburban communities into the core city transit systems or directly to their jobs in the central business district.   North Carolina has some of that provided with the line to Raleigh/Greensboro, but overall the Carolinas lack that infrastructure that would allow us to hop on the train to Atlanta, Columbia, Asheville, Wilmington, Hickory, and towns in between for commutes or otherwise.  

 

Overall, this seems like it is a good first step in building out that type of infrastructure, but I am very skeptical that the ridership on it will be enough to keep it from being a laughing stock.   It is the supreme irony of our culture that the only transit that suburban conservatives support are commuter lines to the suburbs which turn out being long lines with low ridership that confirm the charges of boondoggles.

When I say "Charlotte" I mean the region as a whole not just the 300 square miles that form the city proper. I also think that Charlotte leadership is short-sighted not just as it relates to the red line, but also every transit line currently planned with the exception of the blue line, to include the Southeast corridor, the airport corridor, and the streetcar.

FWIW the red line's ridership projections are actually more like 5x the Music City Star's with 6000 per day in 2030. As an aside, I think we put way too much faith in the ridership projections themselves. I think that the red line will be able to meet its projections. I think the projections for the streetcar (16000) are drastically overstated. I think it is preposterous to think that streetcar will receive the same amount of riders as the blue line currently does.

[Urbanity]

In the NorthEast, there is a solid network of intercity rail that stops for commuters in towns outlying the core cities in the metros.  SEPTA, NJT, LIRR, etc., are useful at bringing residents of suburban communities into the core city transit systems or directly to their jobs in the central business district.   North Carolina has some of that provided with the line to Raleigh/Greensboro, but overall the Carolinas lack that infrastructure that would allow us to hop on the train to Atlanta, Columbia, Asheville, Wilmington, Hickory, and towns in between for commutes or otherwise.  

As a native NY'ker who regularly over the years used MetroNorth and LIRR your comparisons are a little off.  Please understand I agree with your general point though.

 

But one doesn't grab the commuter line in NY to go to major cities (Boston, DC, Albany even) - you grab it to go to suburbs and smaller towns.  This is obviously the majority of the benefit of those who work in the city but live in the suburbs, but it does also serve the benefit of NYkers getting out to LI beaches in the summer and suburb people coming into the city for evenings/weekend entertainment options.

 

My point is that the idea of travelling to Atlanta, Columbia, Asheville, Wilmington should not be in the same discussion points though as a commuter rail line.becuase it's a different type of rail travel (Amtrak) than commuter.

Again - I got and agree with your basic point - just think you overshot with looping in a larger intercity rail discussion in the commuter rail idea.

[dubone]

I am thinking of examples like NJTransit, which basically gets you to from Philly to AC, Trenton to NYC, etc., with many stations on the way.  This regional rail often has destinations on either end.  I think it is like our rail to Raleigh includes stops in Kannapolis, Salisbury and High Point.  

 

I am somewhat unsure of where I stand, partly because it is the only transit line planned for Charlotte that I have no personal need to ever ride.   NC needs some the type of rail infrastructure the NorthEast has already, and hopefully some types we can do better.  My main point on intercity corridors is that they have some benefit of commutes in both directions, and a larger purpose other than just delivering commuters to CBDs exclusively.

 

While I want more rail infrastructure, I can't help but roll my eyes at this project's staying power and higher priority over lines in denser parts of the region.  According the project's own website there almost 1300 daily riders on the northern express bus routes, which already have some speed benefits over single occupancy auto commutes due the HOV lanes, which are currently planned for expansion.  Then the model for ridership from the commuter rail system with ridership models is only 4000-5000 riders (remember that is 2000 people going to work and back) after spending $450m and 20 years of ridership growth.   Nashville proves that it might not even meet projections, such as if the culture of the people in the towns is such that they don't mind paying the HOT tolls to speed their commute over riding the train.    

 

The East-West streetcar line costs the same or less, is eligible for federal funding options, and has 4x the projected ridership at 14,000 riders per day with much more significant opportunity for densification, yet it gets mocked as the boondoggle while people are shocked this line hasn't been built yet.   

[mallguy]

I agree with the above post about Northeastern commuter trains being used just for short distances to suburbs.  There are some exceptions (such as people who take NJ Transit and SEPTA between NY and Philadelphia, since it's cheap), but commuter trains average around 30 mph, since they stop at stations every mile or every few miles.  Amtrak, which generally serves intercity markets instead of trips within a metropolitan area, is much faster.

 

On that topic, commuter trains do require significant investments to allow them to travel at speeds which would make them competitive with driving.  Stations with platforms that are even with the train car floor (allowing people to just walk into the cars, rather than having to climb stairs), electrification (which allows trains to accelerate quickly), etc. all significantly increase costs. 

 

So basically with trains, you get what you pay for; if you don't spend anything, you'll get a train that just pokes along and spends a lot of time loading people and accelerating away from stations, resulting in slow trips that don't attract riders.

[kermit]

I brought up the Music City Star not because it was an example of greatness (its not), but that it serves as a functional commuter rail service for just $42 million in construction costs (1/10th of what is budgeted for the Red Line).

 

Given the budget problems with the Red Line as currently proposed what would we really loose by taking a cheaper (and quicker) route to commuter rail in N Meck?

• Would it be a huge problem if the cheap Red Line only carried half the ridership (2000 people per day instead of 5000) but at 1/10 of the capital costs?
• Would it be a huge problem if stations were little more than park and rides with LRT like platforms?
• Would it be a huge problem to use refurbished equipment rather than new (in order to save 10s of millions?)
• Would it be a huge problem to keep most of the route single-tracked (with the associated schedule limitations) in order to have $250 million to use elsewhere in the 2030 plan?

Building a cheap Red Line would have the virtue of:

• being within financial reach of CATS and the N Meck towns
• Being a cheap way to prove the concept (no reason that additional coaches could not be added should demand warrant it)
• Unlocking any potential TOD that has been waiting for more than a decade (several of these projects were mentioned earlier in the thread)
• Being expandable to the current (gold plated) Red Line plan should demand warrant spending the additional $350 million (or so)

I am trying to see a downside of providing cheaper commuter rail as a demonstration of its merits (and an advertisement for expansion into more robust service). Why is CATS so attached to the $400 million plan?

[MilZ]

Along with the necessary cost of stations, crossings, etc., most of the expense is due to upgrading the tracks. If I remember correctly, right now the tracks are only graded to carry passenger rail at 25 mph. The goal is 55 mph to get from Davidson to Uptown in just over 30 mins, so it will actually be competitive with commute times down i77.

Also, remember that the pricetag on these projects have been significantly increasing year to year. By the time this project is underway, it will probably be considerably more expensive.

Basically, the price they have now is the cheapest they can realistically do.

[kermit]

^

Basically, the price they have now is the cheapest they can realistically do.

Are you sure about that? My impression of the Nashville project was the bulk of their $42 million in capital costs was to upgrade the 32 miles of existing class 2 tracks to class 3 (60 mph for passenger rail).

I will conceed that the O line probably has more grade crossings, but probably not enough to run the cost up out of reach (where it currently is). Ill also conceed that construction costs may be higher than they were in 2006, but certainly not by an order of magnitude.

[TotalLamer]

^

Are you sure about that? My impression of the Nashville project was the bulk of their $42 million in capital costs was to upgrade the 32 miles of existing class 1 and 2 tracks to class 3 (60 mph for passenger rail).

I will conceed that the O line probably has more grade crossings, but probably not enough to run the cost up out of reach (where it currently is)

 

Don't forget that they have to completely re-install the track/crossing at Seaboard Street.  Also I sincerely doubt that line is already signaled and it would need to be.

[dubone]

The Seaboard Street crossing is mostly covered by the Mainline Separation project already in motion for the freight, so at most they would need to just add a short bridge over the new CSX trench  

 

I can't help but wonder why they haven't just pursued baby-step funding to incrementally enhance the corridor over the past 20 years with this in mind, but also benefitting any freight expansion.   I supposed they have probably gotten one-off funding for crossings from the state, but it seems there might be some funds available if they tried, especially if they did do what kermit suggested, and build it in phases.   Upgrades might come easier from the feds if it is to enhance or speed up the existing trains, such as what NC has done on the Raleigh-Charlotte corridor.  It is based on reducing an existing travel time, rather than trying to get to some optimal level right out of the gate.

[utcharlotte]

Adding increased capacity on I-77, plus the new I-485 lanes, could really make this project not feasible for a few more years.  Even with the 'cheap design' scenario, all of that extra capacity for commuters will bring many folks back to the freeway for their long distance commutes.

[dubone]

Keep in mind though, that the paltry 4-5k ridership model is required to include the expansion of all the freeways.  It is a handicapping that is arguably unfair, but it is part of our culture where interstate expansion is considered by almost everyone as an inevitability.

[mallguy]

Kermit, your position is definitely well-thought and is certainly a valid one.  My concern with having a Nashville-type commuter train is that it could kill momentum for additional rail transit in Charlotte.  The Blue Line has done well in attracting riders and it makes a great impression, with shiny new cars, smooth track, etc.  It's definitely provided momentum for moving forward with other lines.  If Charlotte got a commuter rail system that is less than ideal, people would see old cars, slow travel times, low ridership, etc. and would think that public transportation isn't something that they want, if that's what public transportation is.  I'd rather do it right the first time or not do it at all.