Red Line Regional Rail

[Urbanity]

I think you make good points, but I also think you are making those good points about the wrong project.

[mallguy]

Gold plated is probably a poor choice of words. I think unimaginative is more like it. The city has been very flexible and creative in their effort to fund the red line, but has not really done anything creative in the design to get it built. I think they are just risk averse and fear that may cause this to never happen.

 

What pisses off a lot of fiscal conservatives is this sort of indifference to the cost of the project and only focusing all your efforts on the funding side. What about staged construction, fewer stations at first, use leased equipment at first, contract out equipment maintenance, reduce station area improvements. Hell even if these are all bad ideas at least show that you are thinking about cost.

 

Todd

These are good points.  As a Republican, I'm in favor of keeping costs down, but I also want the project "done right" and in a way that will appeal to large numbers of riders and entice real estate development, and so I'd like nice stations, new equipment, etc.

 

One thing that CATS hasn't focused on, as far as I know, as another cost-saving measure is contracting out operation of the system to a private contractor.  I'd even think that giving Norfolk Southern a tax credit in the amount of expected operating losses in exchange for operating the system would be one thing that should be considered, but I've never heard anyone mention it.

[ah59396]

These are good points. As a Republican, I'm in favor of keeping costs down, but I also want the project "done right" and in a way that will appeal to large numbers of riders and entice real estate development, and so I'd like nice stations, new equipment, etc.

One thing that CATS hasn't focused on, as far as I know, as another cost-saving measure is contracting out operation of the system to a private contractor. I'd even think that giving Norfolk Southern a tax credit in the amount of expected operating losses in exchange for operating the system would be one thing that should be considered, but I've never heard anyone mention it.

I really like this idea. Is it possible?

[ajfunder]

BNSF and Union Pacific operate certain Chicago Metra trains. BNSF also operates Seattles Sounder commuter train. There are more examples and it is a viable option.

[southslider]

NCDOT is already seeking a private partner for I-77. Unfortunately, they will also hand over control of any capacity improvements in the surrounding corridor, whether roads (21, 73, 115) or rail.

Red Line could be a publicly backed concessionaire, with TIF from TOD and FOD (industrial development) paying off the upfront investment. Such financing would likely be cheap enough for NCDOT to still be less than their share of a P3 for HOT lanes, and still have money leftover for a single-lane widening to Exit 28.

[Urbanity]

I think all these ideas/feelings are great but the reason I keep saying "this is not the project" is because unlike every other planned rail line - this one is not sole Charlotte control.

 

The larger issue for costs in my mind is getting all the other towns to foot their part of the bill and make it happen which seems to be a larger issue in my mind than getting state funding.   If all the ducks were lined up between Charlotte and Mooresville the state would have a hard time denying partial funding from a pr stance of how hard they've been pushing the Regionalism (i.e. CLT).

[thetrick]

Project Component  Estimated Cost (millions) 

Main Line Track  $70.5  

Grade Crossings  $44.9 

Vehicles  $58.3 

Stations  $56.6 

Charlotte Terminal Area &

Vehicle Inspection Facility $66.0 

Systems  $25.8 

Professional Services  $40.9 

NS Licensing Agreement  $28.1

Freight Rail Rationalization  $5.7

Project Reserve  $11.6 

Station Area Improvements $43.6 

Total  $452.0

 

 

Areas I would cut.

 

Vehicles down to $38m Use refurbished or leased equipment. Save $20m

 

Stations down to $22m that’s $2m per station for platform and some parking, let the towns do the rest. Save $34m

 

Vehicle inspection facility $10m  Some sidings and a couple hundred feet of covered track All other services are contracted out.  Save $56m

 

Station area improvements $0m This is up to the towns. Savings $43.6m

 

Total savings $153m or 33%

 

Thats just my take.

 

Oh and there is the possibility that Iredell county can just go take a leap, and it's built without them. Just build a nice big park and ride on the northern most station and you will get most of their riders anyways.

[Urbanity]

Project Component  Estimated Cost (millions) 

Main Line Track  $70.5  

Grade Crossings  $44.9 

Vehicles  $58.3 

Stations  $56.6 

Charlotte Terminal Area &

Vehicle Inspection Facility $66.0 

Systems  $25.8 

Professional Services  $40.9 

NS Licensing Agreement  $28.1

Freight Rail Rationalization  $5.7

Project Reserve  $11.6 

Station Area Improvements $43.6 

Total  $452.0

 

 

Areas I would cut.

 

Vehicles down to $38m Use refurbished or leased equipment. Save $20m

 

Stations down to $22m that’s $2m per station for platform and some parking, let the towns do the rest. Save $34m

 

Vehicle inspection facility $10m  Some sidings and a couple hundred feet of covered track All other services are contracted out.  Save $56m

 

Station area improvements $0m This is up to the towns. Savings $43.6m

 

Total savings $153m or 33%

 

Thats just my take.

 

Oh and there is the possibility that Iredell county can just go take a leap, and it's built without them. Just build a nice big park and ride on the northern most station and you will get most of their riders anyways.

Out of curiosity - how did you come up with those figures on savings.  What you say seems all great on paper, but I'm wondering what it is all based on.

[thetrick]

Fair question. I work for a civil engineering firm and deal with large industrial and commercial construction projects. It's an educated guess, but not without some experience in the matter. One thing I don't have a good handle on is the real estate costs as in how much is available from the towns and how much would have to be purchased.

 

Also I am not sure how the vehicle costs are divided and exactly what equipment they are using for their costs so I just took the cost from another commuter service that started using rebuild Budd RDC cars.

 

This also does not include the savings from not going to Iredell County

[mallguy]

Project Component  Estimated Cost (millions) 

Main Line Track  $70.5  

Grade Crossings  $44.9 

Vehicles  $58.3 

Stations  $56.6 

Charlotte Terminal Area &

Vehicle Inspection Facility $66.0 

Systems  $25.8 

Professional Services  $40.9 

NS Licensing Agreement  $28.1

Freight Rail Rationalization  $5.7

Project Reserve  $11.6 

Station Area Improvements $43.6 

Total  $452.0

 

 

Areas I would cut.

 

Vehicles down to $38m Use refurbished or leased equipment. Save $20m

 

Stations down to $22m that’s $2m per station for platform and some parking, let the towns do the rest. Save $34m

 

Vehicle inspection facility $10m  Some sidings and a couple hundred feet of covered track All other services are contracted out.  Save $56m

 

Station area improvements $0m This is up to the towns. Savings $43.6m

 

Total savings $153m or 33%

 

Thats just my take.

 

Oh and there is the possibility that Iredell county can just go take a leap, and it's built without them. Just build a nice big park and ride on the northern most station and you will get most of their riders anyways.

Keep in mind:

 

CATS is already saving $70+MM by having the commuter line powered by diesel locomotives instead of electrifying the line.  (As a result, the trains will run more slowly and pollute more and have somewhat higher operating costs.)

 

CATS is already saving millions by having low-level platforms at the stations, rather than building platforms that are at the same height as the train floors.  (As a result, trip times will be slower because it'll take people longer to board the trains.)

 

Plus, if you use train cars from the 1950s, as a few start-up commuter lines have done, the operating costs are much higher, since the cars are so old.  If you use secondhand locomotives, they'll last for only a few years until they have to be rebuilt--and when they're rebuilt, the rebuilding will be costly because those locomotives are currently exempted from certain environmental law requirements, but their exemption from those requirements expires when they're rebuilt.

 

So CATS is already giving Charlotte a "Buick" commuter rail system instead of a "Mercedes" system.  Going a step down and giving Charlotte a "Yugo" commuter rail system will give Yugo quality but the total price of the system, factoring in operating costs and future locomotive rebuilding costs, will be close to the "Buick" system anyhow.

[ajfunder]

I dont think Charlotte could even electrify the line if they wanted to, Norfolk Southern would definetley not approve.

[southslider]

As long as the CSX remains at grade beside ADM, Red Line will be too expensive to even enter Uptown. Rumor is NCDOT-Rail's grade separation project has died, thanks to ADM's extravagant demands.

[kermit]

Yikes!

If the grade seperation dies then Gateway Station dies along with it. Right?

[dubone]

As long as the CSX remains at grade beside ADM, Red Line will be too expensive to even enter Uptown. Rumor is NCDOT-Rail's grade separation project has died, thanks to ADM's extravagant demands.

 

WHAT?!

 

That will have a serious impact on uptown and all rail through Charlotte.   I realize they are a significant operation, but ADM should not be able to scuttle such an important project.

[ajfunder]

From what I have heard the project is still a go, I can't disclose the sources, but they do work for the city.

[kermit]

[this is not directly connected to the red line]

 

Norfolk Southern contractors were replacing ties and grade crossings along Graham street (near I85) today. Its been a while since this track has seen any work.

[15895]

I don't think TaTa is nearly as bad as I thought he was going to be. I'd even say he's pro rail going to Denver to see their transit. He seems pro-rail to me. Though I'll continue to be cautious.

[kermit]

^ Agreed. I was very surprised by the outcome of the PIRRA negotiations and the reallocation of the cash from the CSX/NS grade crossing to other rail projects -- I never thought we would see additional Piedmont frequencies under this administration.

 

Fingers will remain crossed.

[Third Strike]

Looks like we may get a new report soon, as well as a meeting:

 

**Update 10/23/2013: Further work on the Draft Business/Finance Plan, including release of the “Consensus Plan,” is currently on hold pending the outcome of a report being prepared by consultants under contract to NCDOT and CATS. This report will summarize the issues involving development of the proposed Red Line service while preserving present and future freight capacity along Norfolk Southern’s O Line corridor. Funding possibilities for the Red Line and other regional transit systems are also being considered by the 30-member Metropolitan Transit Commission’s Transit Funding Working Group. A meeting notice will be posted to this site when the next RLTF meeting is scheduled.**

 

 

http://redlineregionalrail.org/

[Matthew.Brendan]

....Any news is good news....?

[Urbanity]

I honestly don't know how to read between the lines on that Red Regional line post.

 

The placement on the page (on the site)  is so urgent yet it doesn't seem to be saying anything.  

[southslider]

Without CSX lowered in Uptown, there is no Red Line anytime soon.

[ajfunder]

Do we know that for sure, a commuter train would only occupy the diamond for less than a minute. It might make operations more complicated, but from what I have heard is that the grade separation project may not have been completely necessary.

[southslider]

My understanding is that an at-grade crossing limits frequency.  It would be a shame to build a commuter line with only as many trains as Amtrak has running from Charlotte to Atlanta.

[15895]

I wish MTC would just focus on getting the gold line up & running, start the planning for the silver line and if the red line happens - great