Cities Without Rail Transit Systems

[pantherpaddler]

There is a proposed commuter rail for Harrisburg, PA called Corridor One. It woud link up the downtown, airport and nearby Lancaster, PA... If it does go through, I believe Harrisburg would be the smallest market in the country to actually have a commuter rail system.

I know this is an old thread, but Albuquerque, NM recently opened a commuter rail along a N/S corrdior and it connect with Santa Fe in 2 years. If you go by the metro population in the 2000 census, it ends up that Albuquerque & Santa Fe are smaller in population than Harrisburg & Lancaster:

2000 US Census - Population Summary

US Census - GIS map of Metro. Statistical Areas

#71 Albuquerque, NM MSA: 712,000

#205 Santa Fe, NM MSA: 147,000

Albuquerque + Santa Fe: 859,000

#66 Harrisburg, PA MSA: 629,000

#88 Lancaster, PA MSA: 470,000

Harriburg + Lancaster: 1,099,000

But this is just commuter rail, nto considering light rail/streetcars systems.

[tony speller]

It would have been great if Detroit could have finished the People Mover... because the current circuit is pretty much pointless.

LA needs a better system too. I know they have the subway (limited)... and when i drove out there a few months ago I did notice a light rail that went out into burbank. But as far as those are concerned, I know that visiting and getting around the area is pretty much impossible unless you want to rent a car. I'm happy to see one being built in OC.

I didn't see this mentioned, but Phoenix needs something BAAAADLY! Right now all they have is a bus service, but that shuts down at 6pm. I mean, honestly.... what good is that?

I'd also like to see some sort of light rail system connecting Detroit to places like Flint and Ann Arbor. It just makes sense.

[Simple Simon]

Maybe the better question would be "if you regularly take rail transit, would you live in a city that did not have it". I can't imagine why anyone who has no need for public transporation would refuse to live in a city with no rail system.

[Snowguy716]

Here in Salzburg, Austria, I rely completely on transit to get around.

The bus system in Salzburg is quite complete with buses running every 7 or 10 minutes during the day to all corners of Salzburg with the "Postbus" running to surrounding villages/towns.

You can also take the lokalbahn to get to the "suburbs" of Salzburg or the normal train to get somewhere else.

I couldn't be here without good public transit.

[PghUSA]

^^Interesting about Salzburg, I envy Europe's embrace of mass transit beyond class lines.

[Snowguy716]

It is pretty amazing.

I just don't buy the "Americans love their cars too much to use public transport".. it's just not true. I hate my car. I hate having to get in the car, let it warm up (or cool down) and drive somewhere just to do something and then drive again to come home.

But maybe it's a regional thing. Minneapolis ranked the number 1 city on Google trends for searches of "light rail transport"... yes, Minneapolis has only one LRT line.. but we like to ride it back and forth just because we're so intrigued by it.

I'm particularly intrigued by electrified transport. For example, electric trains get better traction, accelerate faster, and have much higher top speeds than diesel trains.. and I won't say conventional diesel.. because electric trains came around about 25 years before diesel.

I guess I just get a little down because I see cities like Prague with amazing public transport systems in a country that isn't exactly the richest in the world.. yet we can't even push through a few commuter rails and some street cars... because people supposedly "love" their cars too much.

No, I just think Americans are stingy and afraid of change. Well, I shoudln't say that.. because we certainly weren't afraid to build freeways and rip up train tracks like it was going out of style in the '50s!

Minneapolis went from having probably the most extensive streetcar system in 1948 to nothing in 1953... it's amazing how a few people can devestate something so big in so short a time.

Oh well... I say move forward with public transport. Put your car in the garage and take the rail/bus.

Something we should see in every city.

[damus]

I say definately make it more expensive to drive. That's the problem with mass transit usage. Put tolls on every highway (in CT we get enough thru traffic to offset the lost federal funding) and have that go towards road maintenance and mass transit. Raise gas taxes a dollar or so, and split it between transit and alternative fuels. I guarantee that if that is done we will see a huge increase in ridership and sprawl would slow to a crawl. I guess only another Ross Perot type rich guy would have to come along to propose such a fantastic idea. The politicians in both parties would never dream of such an idea.

[Inkdaub]

I agree with damus totally.

[Cadeho]

It amazed us younger folk in Richmond how we could have gotten rid of our trolly system which was the first electric trolley system in the country. In 1998 an article here described how we were the only city of its size not to have a regional transit system. Us youngin's would cheer its return and expansion. A lot of people laugh that we have traffic problems. Yes, northern Virginia and Tidewater edge us out, but what sense is it to wait until it gets to its absolute worst to say, "Oh yeah it's time now!"

But one thing though, Richmonders love their cars. It'd be a miracle to wrestle their cars away and have them use a reginal mass transit system. Chesterfield County drags its feet on everything and rather be the kid in the corner playing by themself. Their residents constantly complain about its traffic and yet they never want to play along with at least the existing bus system. They accepted some small bus routes then stopped them then restarted them again.

I'd like to see us with a city-wide and regional light rail system again. All they do is talk and talk and say not yet. All it is is wasted time. But they certainly know how to say yes to bland parking decks with only one use. There's even a street that is now basically nothing but decks.

[Snowguy716]

Minnesota has had to topple over some pretty strong anti-transit folks.. but the tide has changed completely since the introduction of Minneapolis' first light rail line. Now the Twin cities have commuter rail and more LRT in the works along with BRT.

The representative in the Minnesota legislator most against transit saw two of his most staunch colleagues get booted out by massive majorities in special elections last fall. He's a bit nervous to say the least and is now changing the way he thinks, a bit.

For the most part, however, transit in Minnesota has been a tri-partisan thing (I say tri because there are a few independents and greens involved) and Jessy Ventura-I, was one of the largest supporters of the Hiawatha LRT line.

The people in general that tend to be against transit here are: Republicans from the metro area and some rural democrats that want to make sure that transit funding for the Twin Cities doesn't cut into their local transportation funding.

Otherwise, Minneapolis has a very extensive bus system metro wide. You just don't hear a lot about it because it's not rail and rail is all the rage.

[Mith242]

I know this is an old thread, but Albuquerque, NM recently opened a commuter rail along a N/S corrdior and it connect with Santa Fe in 2 years. If you go by the metro population in the 2000 census, it ends up that Albuquerque & Santa Fe are smaller in population than Harrisburg & Lancaster:

2000 US Census - Population Summary

US Census - GIS map of Metro. Statistical Areas

#71 Albuquerque, NM MSA: 712,000

#205 Santa Fe, NM MSA: 147,000

Albuquerque + Santa Fe: 859,000

#66 Harrisburg, PA MSA: 629,000

#88 Lancaster, PA MSA: 470,000

Harriburg + Lancaster: 1,099,000

But this is just commuter rail, nto considering light rail/streetcars systems.

I overlooked this topic. Yeah I posted a little bit of this info on this over in the USA West forum. One big difference probably is the fact of how many tourists are around Albuquerque and Santa Fe. Most people are more interested in Santa Fe and Taos but with both being somewhat small many visitors fly into Albuquerque, especially foreign ones. Of course we'll have to see how well it does in Albuquerque or it may never get to the point of being extended to Santa Fe.

[Recchia]

I DESPISE my car and hate the fact that I have no other way to get to work. Anyone who thinks it's cheaper to drive needs to remember how much they spend yearly on car insurance and car repairs. That $1,600 in car insurance, $150 on oil changes and the all too often expensive car repair (i.e. $1,000 catalytic converter) add up to be ridiculously expensive. Throw in gas and you're easily spending over $2,000 a year. Or you could buy a transit pass for $45 a month and spend less than $600 a year on transportation. And if you have to pay to park, forget it, you'll save even more. Car transportation is NOT cheap.

[g-man430]

A city without a rail transit system? ...my hometown of Greenville, SC.

[FromCityToRural]

San Francisco's BART is actually not really a San Francisco thing, it's an entire Bay Area thing; San Franciscans hardly ever use it for local transit, instead using the notorious MUNI system.

When we lived in the South Bay, we always took BART up to San Francisco. They recently extended it to the airport and with any luck, someday it'll be expanded all the way around the bay, too.

all too often expensive car repair (i.e. $1,000 catalytic converter)

Damn...$1000 for a new cat? Sounds like you need a new muffler shop...that should run maybe $250 including the cost and installation of the cat.

[tamias6]

My home town of Grand Rapids, MI currently has a bus system called "The Rapid" that serves the core city itself and surrounding communities. Its supplimented by shuttle buses, DASH, serving Downtown and PASS, an on call bus system that serves the 'burbs. Together it is a nice bus system. However I'd like to see somthing better. The Rapids is looking into Light Rail or BRT. But the Grand Rapids Area is infamous for being a Republican ultra conservative stronghold. BRT or LRT would fly with the people but not the stuffy polititians and ever vigilant NIMBY's. Michigan's crappy economy is not helping matters ethier. So it'll be another 50 years before I'd ever see tracks laid or lanes deticated.

If I had my way about it. I'd put in a BRT system to serve GR and surrounding communities and Commuter Rails to connect the outfringes of the greater metro area to the core city.

[kayman]

Birmingham does even really have a bus system so much for rail transit. At one point Birmingham had the most extensive streercar system in the country, but that changed by the 1960's. Up until the mid 1990's, the MAX bus system did serve the area with pretty decent service, but mismanagement and corruption via former BJCTA exec Phil Gary led to the system to become nonexistent. There was an extensive expansion plan via a plan called MAPS to turn MAX into BARTA, but the NIMBY people opposed it and supposely had an alternative called BAPS. The MAPS was voted down and the BARTA system never came to be and those jacka**** that voted it down plan never materialized either. To this very day the MAX on life support, but may fade away like the streetcar system soon if proper funding isn't found. However, US Senator Richard Shelby does have federal dollars set aside for the Birmingham area, but a 20% local funding match must be found before the money can be used. There are plans for a downtown streetcar (2 lines), BRT, and express bus service, but funding most be found first.

[miamivicefan]

Fort Lauderdale does not have a rail transit system (other than tri-rail, but that is tri county rail), we need one, cause traffic is worse than ever.

[lebronstheman]

Unfortunately, in such a city, you're liable to get this:

In case you don't recognize, this is the rotting, former Grande Dame of railroading to Detroit: the empty, crumbling Michigan Central depot/tower at the edge of downtown. (Detroit's 3 round-trip Amtrak trains stop at a little, one-platform Greyhound-like station 4 miles north of Downtonw) Guess the People Mover couldn't cure this ill...

[Cadeho]

That's a neat looking building!

[Choirboy622]

Here in Salzburg, Austria, I rely completely on transit to get around.

The bus system in Salzburg is quite complete with buses running every 7 or 10 minutes during the day to all corners of Salzburg with the "Postbus" running to surrounding villages/towns.

You can also take the lokalbahn to get to the "suburbs" of Salzburg or the normal train to get somewhere else.

I couldn't be here without good public transit.

I would LOVE to visit Salzburg! Being a musician, I would like to go there and also to Vienna. I have been to Austria twice, but unfortunately to Innsbruck each time.

[lebronstheman]

That's a neat looking building!

I agree... Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick's admin initially talked of converting it into Detroit Police HQ, but I think the plan stalled. Doggone shame it's not a train station anymore -- kind of metaphor for the sorry state of our mentality toward our national passenger rail system... At least a rebirth as the central cop station would stop this beautiful building from looking like this.

[FromCityToRural]

I would LOVE to visit Salzburg! Being a musician, I would like to go there and also to Vienna. I have been to Austria twice, but unfortunately to Innsbruck each time.

Austria's gorgeous! My Mom's from Austria, so we get to go every so often, I've been 5 times. She's from the Salzburg canton, so we're always at odds with those snobby Innsbruck and Vienna folks!! But seriously, Salzburg is one of the most gorgeous places I've ever been, and so was Vienna. When you're in Salzburg, make sure to hit the castle overlooking the city. The view can't be beat. Can't wait to go back and see my folks!

[Snowguy716]

Yes, Salzburg is a beautiful city... but it's those Salzburgers that are snobby ... according to the Viennese and Innsbruckers.

I'm sure this has already been posted.. but there are plans to rebuild and upgrade the tracks between St. Paul and Chicago and up service to 5 or 6 trips per day from Amtrak at a top speed of 110mph. They are also planning on commuter rail running southeast to Hastings, MN that would stop in St. Paul along with the central corridor light rail.

They would then re-convert the St. Paul rail depot back into a central hub for rail travel as Amtrak would re-align its service to this station. Pretty exciting news.

[doady]

If you look at the Winnipeg metropolitan area, it is the fifth highest in US and Canada in terms of the percentage of workers who take transit to work. That's better than Chicago and Washington DC, despite the fact that it has no rail transit of any kind. Hell, Winnipeg doesn't even have a BRT.

The following is a partial list of percentage of workers taking transit in each metro and I highlight the bus-only metro areas.

New York 24.9%

Toronto 22.4

Montreal 21.7

Ottawa-Gatineau 18.5

Winnipeg 14.2

Calgary 13.1

Chicago 11.5

Vancouver 11.5

Halifax 9.9

Quebec 9.8

Victoria 9.7

San Francisco 9.5

Washington-Baltimore 9.4

Boston 9.0

Philadelphia 8.7

Edmonton 8.6

Hamilton 7.9

Oshawa 7.1

Seattle 6.8

Pittsburgh 6.2

London 6.0

Portland 5.7

Los Angeles 4.7

I think this goes a long way in showing that there is a lot that can be with just buses too. I think in the US there is less acceptance of bus-based transit and that is why is a much bigger push for LRT construction than in Canada, where there is hardly any rail expansion at all.

[dtown]

Unfortunately, in such a city, you're liable to get this:

In case you don't recognize, this is the rotting, former Grande Dame of railroading to Detroit: the empty, crumbling Michigan Central depot/tower at the edge of downtown. (Detroit's 3 round-trip Amtrak trains stop at a little, one-platform Greyhound-like station 4 miles north of Downtonw) Guess the People Mover couldn't cure this ill...

it would be awesome if the Detroit PD renovated that building!

i imagine it must have been so grand back in the day.imagine stepping off a train and going into that building(when it was still used). it would be cool if they moved amtrak back into that and tied that possibe Ann Arbor- Detroit commuter rail line into it.