ah59396

The Civil War - Battle for Ballantyne

56 posts in this topic

So there will be an "informal" meeting occurring this Saturday to discuss if, and how, Ballantyne can leave Charlotte for good.

See - http://www.charlotte...till-under.html

Those at the meeting include Oliver Porter, who wrote and was integral in orchestrating the existence of Sandy Springs, GA.

See - http://en.wikipedia....prings,_Georgia

While Sandy Springs did not seceed from Atlanta, Atlanta wanted the land/economic development and Sandy Springs (very similar in many ways to Ballantyne) fought for individual incorporation and eventually got it in 2005.

While this isn't quite at "Threat level midnight" yet, it is certainly a concern. Discuss.

Edited by ah59396

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I can't figure out what Ballantyne (well, the proponents of succession) want. Maybe the new city could be renamed Billjamesington, where you needent concern yourself with the existence of sidewalks.

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I despise Ballantyne. It is the opposite of urban. I live in a condo my wife and I bought uptown and my office is uptown but I spend a lot of time in Ballantyne at client sites. It frustrates me how different a world it is down there and how most of its inhabitants care less about uptown or the immediate surrounding neighborhoods. How can you say you are from Charlotte when you know nothing or spend anytime in its very core. Sorry for the rant. I read a lot of threads on here and love it.

Edited by Scoopbth

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The people in Ballantyne are upset that even though their part of the cities pays the most money in taxes, the next wave in city planning/development does not include anything for Ballantyne. These residents would like to see some of their money spent on them, and not just on sections of the city they never go to. I do not agree with these residents though. What would the city put here? Besides, the developers there have been building everything that this portion of Charlotte needs. I could not imagine Charlotte wasting money building sidewalks here, or too many other infrastructure improvements, other than maybe possibly widening roads.

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While I find this all to be ridiculous, I also know many of the people in Ballantyne are well aware of the fact that they pay for most of the projects in the city. And when they read the Observer everyday and see "9% land tax increase" and "CMUD increase" and "Streetcar project set for uptown" they get annoyed.

No one can deny the fact that the city of Charlotte is basically funded by a piece of pie from 77 south over to 74. And whether or not you agree with their views, that is what they think. They have no interest in supporting development in parts of the city where they believe no one is paying taxes anyways and the people already eat and live off their dime.

The city of Charlotte is going to have to convince Ballantyne that either:

a) the taxes they pay aren't just for social welfare

b) the next round of building will include a large project in Ballantyne and they need to stick around (i have no idea what that would be)

or

c) they will lower the land tax after the capital projects are built (which won't happen but whatever)

I don't support this initiative. But I do respect their right to do it if they choose so. Charlotte may be in for quite a fight to keep them around though because losing that tax base would be catastrophic.

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Look a little more closely at Slides 8 and 10 in the City Manager's presentation:

http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/Budget/Documents/Capital%20Investment%20Plan%20Presentation.pdf

As mapped on Slide 8, South Charlotte's District 7 (aka "Town of Providence") was indeed high in terms of its residential values compared to most other areas. However, if looking at the map on Slide 10, South Charlotte (Dist.7) did not appreciate as much in this most recent re-assessment (2003-2011) as Central Charlotte (Districts 1 and 6, as well as in-town portions of Districts 2 and 5). In other words, Far-South Charlotte (Dist.7) may be able to provide some good tax base on its own for the moment, but faster-appreciating Central Charotte could someday make-up any loss of Far-South Charlotte on their own, especially if gas prices only continue to increase.

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Look a little more closely at Slides 8 and 10 in the City Manager's presentation:

http://charmeck.org/...resentation.pdf

As mapped on Slide 8, South Charlotte's District 7 (aka "Town of Providence") was indeed high in terms of its residential values compared to most other areas. However, if looking at the map on Slide 10, South Charlotte (Dist.7) did not appreciate as much in this most recent re-assessment (2003-2011) as Central Charlotte (Districts 1 and 6, as well as in-town portions of Districts 2 and 5). In other words, Far-South Charlotte (Dist.7) may be able to provide some good tax base on its own for the moment, but faster-appreciating Central Charotte could someday make-up any loss of Far-South Charlotte on their own, especially if gas prices only continue to increase.

While I agree with your assessment, I'd imagine the people who live in Central Charlotte (I am one of them) feel more connected to the city as a whole because they aren't marooned out there on the other side of I-485. Additionally, I don't care how much central Charlotte appreciates, losing the Ballantyne tax base is awful, any way you spin it. Particularly when the average home is valued at $300,000. That's a real big chunk of property tax income to just up and disappear. And don't kid yourself, the Central Charlotte dwellers would pay the most for the loss.

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Perhaps on their way out they would consider repaying Charlotte/Mecklenburg for the expense of spreading the infrastructure out to the edges of the county to accomodate their sprawl.

That is a fair request. Put a price tag on it and let the buyout begin.

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While there have been diagrammatic plans that address the different "cores" of the city, like south park, ballantyne, eastland, etc, I don't know that I've ever seen serious discussion about how these cores develop and connect to each other.

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This seems to be a purely emotional reaction rather than a measured response to the proposed tax increase, so I think a study on the impact of incoproration on Sandy Springs, GA may help kill the discussion. There is a comment on the story linked above from a woman who just moved from Sandy Springs to Ballantyne. She said that property taxes doubled and yet municipal services did not improve at all after incorporation in 2005. If this is true as I believe it is, the opposition should be able to bring in an expert to counter the succession proponents. Historical tax bills should hopefully quell this discussion.

I do think we need to throw them some capital projects, even if they are low priority, just to pacify them. I also think a graduated increase rather than a straight 9% increase would take some heat off of the proposal.

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If we are going to talk pure numbers, does anyone have a tally of all tax money spent by the city towards Ballytyne.

My point is that there is no mythical urban procreation stork who one day dropped off on Charlotte's doorstep a fully built Ballytyne with schools, medical offices, bus routes, roads, parks, etc.

The argument that more money goes out than comes into Ballytyne can not happen in a vacuum. How much has the city put into the area and what areas have lost funding (or become lower on the funding priority list) during that same time as a result.

Edited by Urbanity
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If we are going to talk pure numbers, does anyone have a tally of all tax money spent by the city towards Ballytyne.

My point is that there is no mythical urban procreation stork who one day dropped off on Charlotte's doorstep a fully built Ballytyne with schools, medical offices, bus routes, roads, parks, etc.

The argument that more money goes out than comes into Ballytyne can not happen in a vacuum. How much has the city put into the area and what areas have lost funding (or become lower on the funding priority list) during that same time as a result.

Great post.

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So I read in a recent Observer article that Ballantyne residents feel neglected by the city of Charlotte. If this is the case, what would the city need to do to make them feel not neglected? What kind of capital projects are desired by the residents of Ballantyne?

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So I read in a recent Observer article that Ballantyne residents feel neglected by the city of Charlotte. If this is the case, what would the city need to do to make them feel not neglected? What kind of capital projects are desired by the residents of Ballantyne?

Maybe they want an ivory tower built in their city center???

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So I read in a recent Observer article that Ballantyne residents feel neglected by the city of Charlotte. If this is the case, what would the city need to do to make them feel not neglected? What kind of capital projects are desired by the residents of Ballantyne?

OOOOH I know!

How about Massive biblical type tablets (20 feet by 10) throughout the Balllantyne area that list other areas of Charlotte (i.e. Optimist Park, Double Oaks, Tryon Hills, Eastway, Shannon Park, Newell, Derita, etc) that have etched in stone (no maybe white marble) all the capital projects that those areas received with their costs during the period of 1990 - 2010.

At the bottom of each tablet/monument should be the total of tax break and incentives amd capital projects that Ballantyne received during the same period!

Hell - I'd even vote in favor of them having their own TIF just to raise the money for it! :thumbsup:

Edited by Urbanity
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Not to mention, Ballantyne is not the only neighborhood to receive higher property tax values like the article implied. And even it did, it is because of higher property values created by the infrastructure built by the city of Charlotte (and state money that would have competed on priority lists with other infrastructure in the city of Charlotte.

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I live in "Ballantyne" (or "Providence" or "Agrestic"), and this is embarrassing. The stated reasons (taxes, being neglected, etc.) are one thing, but really it's just the same old entitlement, and the same old thought by these people that THEY know the "right" way to do things. They disagree with transit, they disagree with this, they disagree with that. It's really just disgusting. I never plan to move from my home -- but if this happens (and I think it's VERY unlikely), that would be more of a motivator than anything.

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Even if Ballantyne does not take this plan any further than it is now, I have a feeling the political pressure will force Curt Walton to remove the Bojangles refurb, some of the Section 8 housing, and the UNCC research funding. It also seems like the trolley might be a dog fight since people perceive it as being a very expensive means of transport that serves only Uptown. In the end I think it will be funded, though it may be a few years delayed by the time they convince the taxpayers to approve it. I am sure the the new infrastructure, police stations, and public safety investments will go through uncontested. Hopefully a 5-7% property tax increase will be palatable when compared to the original 9% hike.

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Is there a reason that the city needs to own Bojangles arena? Is it currently profitable, or would it be in their best interest to sell it and move on? I mean, the city already has Time Warner Cable for indoor concerts/conventions/ect. The convention center serves a lot of other functions that Bojangles is currently used for as well. Why not save the taxpayers money but selling it to a private company, cutting costs and the need to refurbish it in the first place?

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Is there a reason that the city needs to own Bojangles arena? Is it currently profitable, or would it be in their best interest to sell it and move on? I mean, the city already has Time Warner Cable for indoor concerts/conventions/ect. The convention center serves a lot of other functions that Bojangles is currently used for as well. Why not save the taxpayers money but selling it to a private company, cutting costs and the need to refurbish it in the first place?

It's not a refurb per se. Its an expansion of its function and usability. Adding a park and community sports spaces. I would love for it to happen, it would be a great catalyst for the east side.

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It's not a refurb per se. Its an expansion of its function and usability. Adding a park and community sports spaces. I would love for it to happen, it would be a great catalyst for the east side.

I don't think it would be a catalyst at all for the east side.

It's a sports complex and it is essentially located on an interstate.

The money could be better spent on other projects, or saved.

I'm a fairly liberal person when it comes to spending on community projects, but I think the Bojangles refurb is a complete waste.

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I never considered selling Bojangles, but that seems like the best option to be honest. That land cannot be worth a ton given its location, but the sale could help offset the cost of some of the proposed capital improvements and would eliminate what I assume to be high maintenance costs associated with an older facility.

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I wonder how realistic this is to happening. I think of some other areas in Charlotte that could secede fr the city and form it's own municipality, like Southwark and University city.

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Is there an example anywhere of an area that seceded from a city? Sandy Springs, GA is NOT an example of this as it was always an "unincorporated area" in Fulton County - it was never part of Atlanta. Anytime the Atlanta City council talked about annexation, the folks living there said "If you take some of us, then you have to take all of us." - which the city council never did b/c it would have changed the voter demographics.

How much of the infrastructure in Ballantyne was city funded vs county funded? Seems like its much harder to leave once you are already in (and have been for ~20 years).

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I don't know if this is true, but from an Observer article: "The N.C. Constitution says that the General Assembly would need a three-fifths majority in both houses to approve the creation of a new municipality that’s within five miles of a city of 50,000 people."

That would be one of the biggest hurdles, wouldn't it?

http://www.charlotte...ballantyne.html

Edited by grodney

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