The Civil War - Battle for Ballantyne

[rugger62]

^ that's right

http://www.ncleg.net/Legislation/constitution/article7.html

[Urbanity]

You know what is really funny about all this? Unless I am mistaken (and someone please correct me if I am) The Bissell Company - Developers and owners of the Ballantyne Corporate Park - the whole Heart and engine of the area - haven't really said a thing about this whole call for secession.

I can't see them being in favor of the suggestion let alone going along with it if it did move beyond just the hissy fit stage of a few citizens...

[mad_park]

I don't know if this is true, but from an Observer article: "The N.C. Constitution says that the General Assembly would need a three-fifths majority in both houses to approve the creation of a new municipality that’s within five miles of a city of 50,000 people."

That would be one of the biggest hurdles, wouldn't it?

http://www.charlotte...ballantyne.html

But doesn't that assume that it is already an unincorporated area? "within five miles" isn't the same "as already part of"

[grodney]

You know what is really funny about all this? Unless I am mistaken (and someone please correct me if I am) The Bissell Company - Developers and owners of the Ballantyne Corporate Park - the whole Heart and engine of the area - haven't really said a thing about this whole call for secession.

I can't see them being in favor of the suggestion let alone going along with it if it did move beyond just the hissy fit stage of a few citizens...

Actually, in the article I linked above:

"

Ned Curran is president and chief executive of the Bissell Cos., which helped build Ballantyne and is the major corporate player today. He doesn’t support a new city, saying, “Ballantyne has been good for Charlotte, and Charlotte has been good for Ballantyne.”

"

[Miesian Corners]

There would be no Ballantyne without Charlotte. The opposite can not be said.

[Spartan]

This seems to be a purely emotional reaction rather than a measured response to the proposed tax increase, so I think a study on the impact of incoproration on Sandy Springs, GA may help kill the discussion. There is a comment on the story linked above from a woman who just moved from Sandy Springs to Ballantyne. She said that property taxes doubled and yet municipal services did not improve at all after incorporation in 2005. If this is true as I believe it is, the opposition should be able to bring in an expert to counter the succession proponents. Historical tax bills should hopefully quell this discussion.

I do think we need to throw them some capital projects, even if they are low priority, just to pacify them. I also think a graduated increase rather than a straight 9% increase would take some heat off of the proposal.

If that were the case, they would need to secede from Mecklenburg County, not Charlotte. The City's tax rate didn't increase, and they are a small portion of the property taxes you pay. The proposal is for a 4¢ increase on the city's current tax rate of $0.4370 per $100. Meck County is $0.8166.

If we are going to talk pure numbers, does anyone have a tally of all tax money spent by the city towards Ballytyne.

My point is that there is no mythical urban procreation stork who one day dropped off on Charlotte's doorstep a fully built Ballytyne with schools, medical offices, bus routes, roads, parks, etc.

The argument that more money goes out than comes into Ballytyne can not happen in a vacuum. How much has the city put into the area and what areas have lost funding (or become lower on the funding priority list) during that same time as a result.

I'm not sure how that analysis could be completed. Most of the area south of 485 was annexed in chunks starting in '97, and it was not entirely within the City limits until the 2011 annexation (and there is still a portion east of Providence Rd that is not in the city limits).

People talk about evenly distributing funds and how South Charlotte doesn't get its share, but how do you make the comparison? The area south of 485 was largely built as planned as a result of best practices for development -both public and private sectors- in the 90s and 2000s. The subdivisions and business parks along with the County and NCDOT built most of the infrastructure and services in that area within the past 15 years. By comparison to the rest of the city, the infrastructure is brand new. How can you expect the City to invest funds in to an area that is outside of its boundary and then complain that enough hasn't been done?

Another comparison is the University City area, which was built largely in the late 80s and 1990s. The policies and practices of that time required significantly less investment of developers up-front and the result is an area with significantly higher public-sector needs to improve the area for its residents, IMO.

(Edit: I'm not suggesting there aren't any infrastructure needs in Ballantyne)

Is there an example anywhere of an area that seceded from a city? Sandy Springs, GA is NOT an example of this as it was always an "unincorporated area" in Fulton County - it was never part of Atlanta. Anytime the Atlanta City council talked about annexation, the folks living there said "If you take some of us, then you have to take all of us." - which the city council never did b/c it would have changed the voter demographics.

How much of the infrastructure in Ballantyne was city funded vs county funded? Seems like its much harder to leave once you are already in (and have been for ~20 years).

Carolina Shores, NC was formed out of Calabash.

Charlotte Talks on NPR had an interesting discussion about the secession with District 7 Councilmember Warren Cooksey and the guy that helped form Sandy Springs, GA. Look for "Monday, April 23" :: http://www.wfae.org/wfae/18_206_0.cfm

[southslider]

Like the Bailey Building and Loan, Charlotte pools its money to make a difference. Not long ago (and multiple projects still underway), Charlotte was able to invest greatly in South Charlotte, thanks to taxpayers across the City. Now, that other parts of Charlotte need some investment, there is a selfish run on the bank? That's not very altruistic of us. It's a more Wonderful Life, when we realize how interconnected we all are.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Ballantyne wants Piper Glen and 1/2 of South Charoltte to create a city of 100,000. This has to be ok by Raleigh. How are the representatives from the other cities in North Caroline feel about voting for this? If it can this happens in Charlotte it can happen to us. NO vote on this one.

I went to the meeting and it was told to that it is very hard to setup a city. In their handout, it stated it would be easy to do. The handouts also criticizes the Light Rail, Time Warner Arena, NHOF, and Chiquita . This handout was brought to you by the John Locke Foundation.

[ncsustash]

I happen to live in the Ballantyne area and while I wish I lived uptown, this is where I live. While secession is not a reality, I hope all of the noise around this issue brings to light the waste of the city.

I don't care if my taxes are being sent to fix sidewalks, sewers, or schools in other parts of the city. Those are expenses that should be shared for the common good. I don't even care about extending the blue line, because it would serve a large population and get people off the highways. Mass Transit is not profitable, but it is one of those common good things that I can live with.

I can't live with $119MM to build a street car line for 1.5 miles... That could be serviced just as well with a bus... Or limos...

[ajfunder]

I can't live with $119MM to build a street car line for 1.5 miles... That could be serviced just as well with a bus... Or limos...

The $119 million is for a 3 mile extension to the already funded $35 million 1.5 mile streetcar making a 4.5 mile system for around $154 million from Central Avenue to Johnson C. Smith University. If you compare it to the light rail, it actually costs less, the UNCC extension costs 1 billion for about 9 miles. Eventually if built as planned the streetcar will stretch from Rosa Parks Transit Center to Eastland Mall and serve some of Charlottes largest transit riding population.

Some food for thought on the full streetcar.

Positive

1.) It is Charlotte's busiest bus corridor(s).

2.) Streetcar provides 2x more capacity than a normal bus and zero emissions in the corridor it runs in as well as better stations and more frequent service= improved efficiency and safety

3.) Links the planned Gateway Station (Greyhound, Amtrak, and eventually the Red (Mooresville), Silver (Matthews), and Orange (Airport) to the transit center which serves the Blue line and almost every CATS bus route.

4.) Connects Johnson C. Smith and CPCC Students to Uptown as well as a appealing mode of transit to Central Avenue Stores.

5.) Pedestrian improvements as well as denser development.

6.) Very high weekday ridership projections (17,000+)

Negative

1.) Price tag

2.) Runs in traffic (planned route doesn't have terrible congestion and street improvements included in the project will help even more with transit time)

3.) Bus can do the same for cheaper although with less efficency, less development, and less appeal.

I personally believe the Streetcar has a very positive upside and will provide better access for students and workers as well as revitalize the area it serves, but it is a very touchy subject. Although it is viewed as a "toy" by many and there are many good arguments against it, IMO it will eventually serve as a backbone as well as a major connector for the CATS transit network when fully constructed. It will be needed eventually and it is only going to get more exspensive as time goes on.

My $0.02

[kermit]

^ It is entirely possible that the completed streetcar will pay for itself via increased densities over the next decade -- although given the current nature of government accounting that data will never flow to the same bottom line. I can't think of any other municipal investments that are as likely to generate a positive return.

While I view the streetcar as a sound investment it does beg the question of why isn't it being financed via TIFF.

[cltbwimob]

The $119 million is for a 3 mile extension to the already funded $35 million 1.5 mile streetcar making a 4.5 mile system for around $154 million from Central Avenue to Johnson C. Smith University. If you compare it to the light rail, it actually costs less, the UNCC extension costs 1 billion for about 9 miles. Eventually if built as planned the streetcar will stretch from Rosa Parks Transit Center to Eastland Mall and serve some of Charlottes largest transit riding population.

Some food for thought on the full streetcar.

Positive

1.) It is Charlotte's busiest bus corridor(s).

2.) Streetcar provides 2x more capacity than a normal bus and zero emissions in the corridor it runs in as well as better stations and more frequent service= improved efficiency and safety

3.) Links the planned Gateway Station (Greyhound, Amtrak, and eventually the Red (Mooresville), Silver (Matthews), and Orange (Airport) to the transit center which serves the Blue line and almost every CATS bus route.

4.) Connects Johnson C. Smith and CPCC Students to Uptown as well as a appealing mode of transit to Central Avenue Stores.

5.) Pedestrian improvements as well as denser development.

6.) Very high weekday ridership projections (17,000+)

Negative

1.) Price tag

2.) Runs in traffic (planned route doesn't have terrible congestion and street improvements included in the project will help even more with transit time)

3.) Bus can do the same for cheaper although with less efficency, less development, and less appeal.

I personally believe the Streetcar has a very positive upside and will provide better access for students and workers as well as revitalize the area it serves, but it is a very touchy subject. Although it is viewed as a "toy" by many and there are many good arguments against it, IMO it will eventually serve as a backbone as well as a major connector for the CATS transit network when fully constructed. It will be needed eventually and it is only going to get more exspensive as time goes on.

My $0.02

I like the streetcar proposal portion of this plan, although I believe the $119 million used to fund it might be more useful for the red line or possibly an LRT line to the airport. At any rate, I believe that it is a reasonable use of money. My largest objection to the plan has to be the Bojangles Coliseum renovation. All that money for an amateur sports complex??? I think the better use of money would be to renovate Bojangles Coliseum to support Arena Football League (not the team that currently resides there; they are a minor league team), Major League Indoor Lacrosse (Once again not a minor league such as NALL), and the Checkers. I would like to see new seating, a new scoreboard, big screens on either end, updated concourses and possibly a ribbon board. I think the city would have a much better ROI for such a complex if you could basically expect 5000-9000 people any time there was a game. And with 2 or 3 Occupants there would be a lot of games year-round.

I also would like to see Memorial Stadium renovated for MLS/MLL and the occasional NCAA FCS/DivII/DivIII Championship game...but I digress.

[southslider]

My largest objection to the plan has to be the Bojangles Coliseum renovation.

Technically, it's an expansion, for which only a third of the cost would come from tax-enabled bonds. That's a 3:1 ROI even before you factor in the stabilized tax base along severely blighted Independence Boulevard, the adjoining private development that would be catalyzed, or the resulting spending by patrons and visitors at multiple events year-round.

Independence is the biggest sucking sound of tax base just outside South Charlotte. We are fooling ourselves, if we think Wal-Mart will be enough of a catalyst on its own.

[ah59396]

Sell Bojangles arena. The city already owns an arena, we don't need two. They can re-furbish that arena 200 times, it wont make that area any better. Throwing money at problems doesn't just fix them.

[southslider]

Actually, part of the plan is to sell some land. Hotels and other accessory development will be part of the return on the Coliseum project. All of those surface lots surrounding the Coliseum are City-owned.

Similarly, the Arena in Uptown sold off some land, including a new hotel. Absent reinvestment in the Coliseum, you certainly won't see quality hotels. Just ask any Eastsider what they think of the current motels along Independence.

Frankly, it's disappointing to hear South Charlotte voices claim that these latest projects don't benefit them. Not long ago, the rest of Charlotte had to have faith in all of our taxes being spent on the South Corridor. But now, South Charlotteans evidently don't wish to repeat that success story anywhere else in our shared community.

[Niner National]

Actually, part of the plan is to sell some land. Hotels and other accessory development will be part of the return on the Coliseum project. All of those surface lots surrounding the Coliseum are City-owned.

Similarly, the Arena in Uptown sold off some land, including a new hotel. Absent reinvestment in the Coliseum, you certainly won't see quality hotels. Just ask any Eastsider what they think of the current motels along Independence.

Frankly, it's disappointing to hear South Charlotte voices claim that these latest projects don't benefit them. Not long ago, the rest of Charlotte had to have faith in all of our taxes being spent on the South Corridor. But now, South Charlotteans evidently don't wish to repeat that success story anywhere else in our shared community.

People in South Charlotte claim the developers paid for everything.

[ah59396]

Actually, part of the plan is to sell some land. Hotels and other accessory development will be part of the return on the Coliseum project. All of those surface lots surrounding the Coliseum are City-owned.

Similarly, the Arena in Uptown sold off some land, including a new hotel. Absent reinvestment in the Coliseum, you certainly won't see quality hotels. Just ask any Eastsider what they think of the current motels along Independence.

Frankly, it's disappointing to hear South Charlotte voices claim that these latest projects don't benefit them. Not long ago, the rest of Charlotte had to have faith in all of our taxes being spent on the South Corridor. But now, South Charlotteans evidently don't wish to repeat that success story anywhere else in our shared community.

I'm not familiar with said success story. And I'm also not being sarcastic, I honestly would just like to know. Has there already been a precedent set in South Charlotte, where heavy city investment led to what is currently in place? My understanding was that South Charlotte is old Charlotte​ and has always been well established and a prominent tax base. The Ballantyne area was a absent swath of land prior to it's development.

What we are talking about here, from my understanding, is an area of the city that is perceived as crime ridden and "un-deserving" of this money. Whether or not that is the case, it is certainly the perception among MANY. The thought process among people I've spoken with is that slapping bike lanes and a fancy medians through Grier Heights (not picking on it per say, but it's been pretty infamous recently) isn't going to draw people into moving into Grier Heights, ect.

[southslider]

^The success story is the significant tax value appreciation (2003-2011) experienced west of Park Road to South Boulevard. Not long ago, Charlotteans would say you have to buy between Park and Providence. Well, South Corridor helped push that boundary west to South Boulevard. Now, the aspiration is to push that boundary east to Monroe Road and Independence Boulevard with various Southeast Corridor improvements.

And if you look at the bond package summary (link below), there are no projects planned for Grier Heights. The Coliseum sits amidst Commonwealth Park, Echo Hills, and Oakhurst, all in-town neighborhoods that have greatly appreciated. So if anything, the City is targeting its investments, where an on-going return is a fairly safe bet.

But if you're saying that the Monroe Road Streetscape project would be "Grier Heights," then that just proves my point about South Charlotte's insular perception of not crossing Providence or Randolph towards Monroe. The in-town neighborhoods along Monroe Road include many new young professional homeowners, who would tell you there is huge potential in this street as an extension of Elizabeth's East 7th Street. It's the same logic held by Merry Oaks and Sheffield residents in how they view the potential of Central Avenue extending out from Plaza-Midwood.

In summary, this package includes projects in areas with huge potential, even areas in spite of their schools. If we want to retain that momentum of recent tax base appreciation, it's wise to target the lagging, non-residential pockets within these newly emerging neighborhoods.

http://charlottefuture.com

[ah59396]

^The success story is the significant tax value appreciation (2003-2011) experienced west of Park Road to South Boulevard. Not long ago, Charlotteans would say you have to buy between Park and Providence. Well, South Corridor helped push that boundary west to South Boulevard. Now, the aspiration is to push that boundary east to Monroe Road and Independence Boulevard with various Southeast Corridor improvements.

And if you look at the bond package summary (link below), there are no projects planned for Grier Heights. The Coliseum sits amidst Commonwealth Park, Echo Hills, and Oakhurst, all in-town neighborhoods that have greatly appreciated. So if anything, the City is targeting its investments, where an on-going return is a fairly safe bet.

But if you're saying that the Monroe Road Streetscape project would be "Grier Heights," then that just proves my point about South Charlotte's insular perception of not crossing Providence or Randolph towards Monroe. The in-town neighborhoods along Monroe Road include many new young professional homeowners, who would tell you there is huge potential in this street as an extension of Elizabeth's East 7th Street. It's the same logic held by Merry Oaks and Sheffield residents in how they view the potential of Central Avenue extending out from Plaza-Midwood.

In summary, this package includes projects in areas with huge potential, even areas in spite of their schools. If we want to retain that momentum of recent tax base appreciation, it's wise to target the lagging, non-residential pockets within these newly emerging neighborhoods.

http://charlottefuture.com

Great post, thanks for the insight. As someone who resides in Elizabeth, I'd love to see further development down Monroe.

[DEnd]

What we are talking about here, from my understanding, is an area of the city that is perceived as crime ridden and "un-deserving" of this money. Whether or not that is the case, it is certainly the perception among MANY. The thought process among people I've spoken with is that slapping bike lanes and a fancy medians through Grier Heights (not picking on it per say, but it's been pretty infamous recently) isn't going to draw people into moving into Grier Heights, ect.

If we... Er y'all rather (I don't live in Charlotte anymore) Don't invest in those areas and help them be seen as attractive to potential landowners, then the status quo stays and leaves Ballantyne with the cities tax burden. In all actuality if improvements aren't made then Ballantyne's porportional tax burden will grow, negatively affecting property values, and leading to increased tax rates for everyone.

[grodney]

Still keeping themselves in the news, and now mentioning Myers Park and South Park?!

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/ballantyne-homeowners-seek-separation-charlotte/nPTsf/

"The group is also talking about neighborhoods from Myers Park, SouthPark, Piper Glen, Providence and Steele Creek all leaving Charlotte."

[Niner National]

Still keeping themselves in the news, and now mentioning Myers Park and South Park?!

http://www.wsoctv.co...harlotte/nPTsf/

"The group is also talking about neighborhoods from Myers Park, SouthPark, Piper Glen, Providence and Steele Creek all leaving Charlotte."

I think they'll find that the people that live in Myers Park and SouthPark are very different than those that live in Ballantyne.

[southslider]

I think they'll find that the people that live in Myers Park and SouthPark are very different than those that live in Ballantyne.

True, Near-South Charlotte recently voted for Edwin Peacock and against Amendment One. Still, Far-South Charlotte did not vote for Bill James, but more so, for his primary challenger. James would not have won re-election, except for the Towns and his new precincts in Steele Creek.

Essentially, South Charlotte is more fiscally conservative than the rest of Charlotte, but more socially progressive than the rest of Mecklenburg County.

[nonillogical]

Still keeping themselves in the news, and now mentioning Myers Park and South Park?!

http://www.wsoctv.co...harlotte/nPTsf/

"The group is also talking about neighborhoods from Myers Park, SouthPark, Piper Glen, Providence and Steele Creek all leaving Charlotte."

Yeah good luck with that...

[Guest]

Us Myers Parkers are life long Charlotteans while the rest are just Charlatans.