Steven Tanger Center for the Performing Arts

[zalo]

Although a number of people consider Mr. Hartzman a gadfly, his analyses of various issues usually reveal many inconvenient truths. Pity he is not on the reporting staff of the N&R.

http://hartzman.blogspot.com/

[Urbanity]

The projected $60.5 million did not include land acquisition costs or demolition costs. Yet, somehow, as if by magic, City Council last night determined that they could take $10 million out of a $60 million budget to buy some land and still have enough money remaining to pay for a facility that was projected to cost $60.5 million in mid-2012 dollars without land acquisition or demolition costs.

There was a single slide in a GPAC task force presentation that considered the possibility of acquiring the land at the Bellmeade site. It anticipated shaving $5 million off the cost of constructing the facility and using $5 million to purchase land. Of course, that anticipated a lesser facility and only $5 million to purchase land the city council is now hoping to buy for $10 million and for which they've already spent, as of last night, $7.6 million.

 

I am in favor of, and certainly support, Greensboro getting a downtown Performing Arts Center, but I always questioned the need to build the largest seating PAC for a city that is third largest in the state (and which region is also third largest).  

 

Before anyone thinks it's a knock against Greensboro or Triad - it's not - it's just a matter of trying to understand the logic.

 

Is it possible that the city leaders are having the same question about attendance numbers?  Or even more likely, perrhaps ability to compete against the two larger markets of Charlotte and Triangle for first run top shows considering it's close proximity to both.

 

Again - this is not a knock - only a question of feasibility. 

 

Perhaps a decision was made that having the largest PAC in the state is not as important as other considerations  such as one that can pay for itself more easily in the long run or placing it more strategically in the city (i.e. anchoring a further push of  Elm Street district North while also serving as an East anchor for eventual Summit/Bellemeade activity strip towards the stadium?)

 

If so, and if they aren't planning on announcing a "oops" we need more money approach the money moved towards purchasing the site over building the biggest makes sense to me.

 

BTW - Separate question - there were talks with the other site of a pedestrian concourse/park being built funded from a donor.  Is that plan still happening in that location or is the planned park/concourse being moved to the new location?

 

Edited August 22, 2013 by Urbanity

[cityboi]

Zalo, it has been implied that if the parking cant generate the $10 million, the city would have to chip in. Lets say that worst case scenario happens...so what? considering what other cities have invested in PACs, it would be a huge bargain for Greensboro. Urban cities invest money in things like this all the time. We cant just sit on our hands and not do anything just because we are afraid to invest public money. If we did that, we would not have the Greensboro Coliseum, the Greensboro Aquatic Center or the Greensboro Science Center.

 

I think the size of a city doesn't always determine the size of its facilities. For example, Greensboro has the largest arena in the state. Greensboro has the largest aquatic center in the state in terms of seating capacity, Greensboro also has the largest convention hotel in the state (over 1,000 guest rooms). Its the only big city in NC that has a hotel with over 1,000 rooms. It was the largest hotel in NC for many years until the Cherokee Casino expanded. However The Sheraton Four Seasons Greensboro is still the tallest hotel in NC.

 

Its not always Charlotte and Raleigh have the biggest and then Greensboro. In the case of the PACs, Greensboro would not be running the same shows Charlotte and Durham are running at the same time. This means people will still come to Greensboro from those areas just like people from Greensboro visit DPAC in Durham. Also because of the larger planned stage dimensions at GPAC, Greensboro could be having shows that would not come to Durham. Charlotte's PAC was also not designed for some of todays 21st century shows. People seem to forget Greensboro's ability in hosting big events whether its sports tournaments or entertainment events. Thats one of Greensboro's greatest strengths and thats due in part to the city's location between Charlotte and the Triangle.  It defies logic that Greensboro hosts events such as the U.S figure skating championships and a number of other events that have and will come to the city.

 

btw the privately financed park associated with the performing arts center will open in 2016. It will be located on the old YWCA site which is across the street from both center-city park and where the PAC will go. This may have been planned all along which seems to be why the city purchased the YWCA site in the first place.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/blog/2013/08/opening-date-set-for-downtown.html

Edited August 23, 2013 by cityboi

[Urbanity]

^^^did you mean Zalo or me in your response?

 

However The Sheraton Four Seasons Greensboro is still the tallest hotel in NC.

uhm... are you sure about that?  I thought the Charlotte Westin was.   That would be followed by the Charlotte Ritz Carlton or the Cherokee hotel outside of Asheville.

 

Its not always Charlotte and Raleigh have the biggest and then Greensboro. In the case of the PACs, Greensboro would not be running the same shows Charlotte and Durham are running at the same time. This means people will still come to Greensboro from those areas just like people from Greensboro visit DPAC in Durham. 

 

Honestly - I don't get your leap of logic here.  I don't foresee anyone from Charlotte metro area or the Triangle making their way to the Triad simple because the Triad people went to those two areas because you didn't have a major PAC.  It doesn't work like that.  You also missed my point about "first run" shows.  If the concerts or shows first appear in Charlotte or Triangle it's unlikely people are waiting for them to show up eventually in the Triad.  And let's not kid each other Charlotte and Raleigh by size of their populations and purchasing power will be first in line for shows and concerts for the foreseeable and probable distant future.

 

In addition to that both areas have enough existing choices for their residents to not need to travel to the Triad:  In the Triangle case, they have two major PACs (Raleigh and Durham) and lord knows how many independent theater companies while Charlotte has several major performance halls from Blumenthal Center, Knight Theatre and Ovens - as well as the  greatest concentration of theater groups and stages in the State.

 

This is kind of where I always don't get you.  You make leaps about Greensboro that are both false and unnecessary.    Or don't you remember the embarrassment of Greensboro Triumph Center?    Why does it need to be always that you guys are the same level or greater than the two biggest metro regions in the state?  study after study and article after article cites the Triangle and Charlotte as the twin engines of NC.  I don't mean to belittle the TRAID but I don't get the false bravado.  

 

Greensboro certainly deserves the best for its citizens - I am a strong believer in that, but whether that must translate in extra millions on taxpayer pockets for the "biggest" or "largest" in the state simply for the fact of saying that versus it having a need or use is certainly what I question.

 

Look - the biggest cultural attraction you guys have - The International Civil Right Museum - which I love and think is a treasure for the state - is frankly failing miserably in attendance and support.  This is not a slight against the museum or the city - but a reminder that build it and they will come is not a realistic way to plan major attractions.  Hell just ask us in Charlotte with the NASCAR HoF which lost another 1,6m this year.   The difference though between the two examples?   Our visitors bureau is still in the black with that loss.  Could you say that same about GBO with such a loss on one institution alone?

 

At the end of the day the only question asked is: Does Greensboro have the capital resources to devote towards building the largest PAC in the State  and if so, is the quest for that title the sole reason it is seeking that a recognition of "biggest"  or has real studies been done to prove it can support selling out those seats each performance while attracting enough performances to justify it at the same time.

 

BTW last thought - please stop talking about parking revenue - no matter what the pr says - Parking (even "VIP" parking) ain't ever gonna pay for tens of millions of debt.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Urbanity

[cityboi]

^^^did you mean Zalo or me in your response?

 

uhm... are you sure about that?  I thought the Charlotte Westin was.   That would be followed by the Charlotte Ritz Carlton or the Cherokee hotel outside of Asheville.

 

Honestly - I don't get your leap of logic here.  I don't foresee anyone from Charlotte metro area or the Triangle making their way to the Triad simple because the Triad people went to those two areas because you didn't have a major PAC.  It doesn't work like that.  You also missed my point about "first run" shows.  If the concerts or shows first appear in Charlotte or Triangle it's unlikely people are waiting for them to show up eventually in the Triad.  And let's not kid each other Charlotte and Raleigh by size of their populations and purchasing power will be first in line for shows and concerts for the foreseeable and probable distant future.

 

In addition to that both areas have enough existing choices for their residents to not need to travel to the Triad:  In the Triangle case, they have two major PACs (Raleigh and Durham) and lord knows how many independent theater companies while Charlotte has several major performance halls from Blumenthal Center, Knight Theatre and Ovens - as well as the  greatest concentration of theater groups and stages in the State.

 

This is kind of where I always don't get you.  You make leaps about Greensboro that are both false and unnecessary.    Or don't you remember the embarrassment of Greensboro Triumph Center?    Why does it need to be always that you guys are the same level or greater than the two biggest metro regions in the state?  study after study and article after article cites the Triangle and Charlotte as the twin engines of NC.  I don't mean to belittle the TRAID but I don't get the false bravado.  

 

Greensboro certainly deserves the best for its citizens - I am a strong believer in that, but whether that must translate in extra millions on taxpayer pockets for the "biggest" or "largest" in the state simply for the fact of saying that versus it having a need or use is certainly what I question.

 

Look - the biggest cultural attraction you guys have - The International Civil Right Museum - which I love and think is a treasure for the state - is frankly failing miserably in attendance and support.  This is not a slight against the museum or the city - but a reminder that build it and they will come is not a realistic way to plan major attractions.  Hell just ask us in Charlotte with the NASCAR HoF which lost another 1,6m this year.   The difference though between the two examples?   Our visitors bureau is still in the black with that loss.  Could you say that same about GBO with such a loss on one institution alone?

 

At the end of the day the only question asked is: Does Greensboro have the capital resources to devote towards building the largest PAC in the State  and if so, is the quest for that title the sole reason it is seeking that a recognition of "biggest"  or has real studies been done to prove it can support selling out those seats each performance while attracting enough performances to justify it at the same time.

 

BTW last thought - please stop talking about parking revenue - no matter what the pr says - Parking (even "VIP" parking) ain't ever gonna pay for tens of millions of debt.

 

I was talking to Zalo in the first paragraph

 

 

Are any Charlotte hotels 28-stories tall? Is the Cherokee Hotel 28 stories? Are you forgetting that Greensboro is actually bigger than Durham? Yes the income level is higher in Durham but feasibility studies have shown GPAC will be a success

 

Actually people will travel from Charlotte and Raleigh. They already do it with concerts at the Greensboro Coliseum. Greensboro isn't building the biggest PAC for the sake of having the biggest PAC. Its all about having a competitive facility. The PAC will fail if its anything less than Durham or Charlotte.

 

feasibility studies were done on the PAC and premium parking and it should pay for the $10 million over time but true the worst case scenario can happen.

 

You cant compare GPAC with the Greensboro Triumph Center which included a 4,000 seat PAC, 500 room 20-story hotel and convention center, an office tower, condo tower, indoor amusement park and stores like Saks Fifth Avenue. Remember Greensboro has the biggest arena in the state and one of the largest arenas in the nation without a major league franchise and the city of Greensboro is doing quite well with the coliseum. I cant think of any city Greensboro's size with a 23,500 seat coliseum. Never underestimate Greensboro just because its smaller than Charlotte or Raleigh. Just because Charlotte or Durham doesn't have a 3,000 seat PAC that doesnt mean by default Greensboro cant support one. Im sure Charlotte would be building a 3,000 seat facility if the Blumenthal needed replacing.

Edited August 23, 2013 by cityboi

[cityboi]

city purchases 6 plots of land for $7.6 million for GPAC

 

http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/296568/57/Property-Prices-for-the-Greensboro-Performing-Arts-Center

[RALNATIVE]

 

Are any Charlotte hotels 28-stories tall? Is the Cherokee Hotel 28 stories? Are you forgetting that Greensboro is actually bigger than Durham? Yes the income level is higher in Durham but feasibility studies have shown GPAC will be a success

 

 

 

Feasibility studies can not show that anything will be a success. It can however be indicative of the potential for success. That's like saying, just because someone scores very high on the SAT, he/she will eventually become wealthy.

Edited August 27, 2013 by RALNATIVE

[zalo]

Feasibility studies can not show that anything will be a success. It can however be indicative of the potential for success. That's like saying, just because someone scores very high on the SAT, he/she will eventually become wealthy.

 

That's a very good point.   The monies being paid for the land appear to be coming from the construction budget of the project, meaning the private sector will need to raise more funds than the currently disclosed $10 million funding gap. The  reporting has been done that this $60 million budget did not include land purchases/demolition costs. There appears to be much more work in fundraising that will need to happen. Best of Luck.

 

http://www.news-record.com/blogs/killian_lehmert_the_inside_scoop/article_5480e75c-0e99-11e3-a4d1-0019bb30f31a.html

Edited August 27, 2013 by zalo

[zalo]

 

 

 

Are any Charlotte hotels 28-stories tall? Is the Cherokee Hotel 28 stories?

 

Here's the answer to this question. Apparently in this case it's The Westin which reported in this article at 29 floors.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/real_estate/2013/05/portman-holdings-plans-15-story-uptown.html?page=all

Edited September 6, 2013 by zalo

[cityboi]

GPAC's largest financial gift and the name of the center will be revealed Monday. Looks like it wont be called Greensboro Performing Arts Center

 

http://www.news-record.com/news/local_news/article_c9db010a-173a-11e3-b482-001a4bcf6878.html

 

Zalo...must have been a typo. The Westin Charlotte has 25 floors. The Sheraton Four Seasons Greensboro has 28 floors. The Westin Charlotte has 700 rooms, The Sheraton Four Seasons Greensboro has 1,017 rooms.  btw the second tower of the Sheraton Four Seasons, which has 16 floors is getting an exterior make over. I noticed it driving by on I-40. The tan brick is being replace with a white concrete facade to match the 28 story tower. They are putting in tinted windows as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westin_Charlotte

 

http://www.emporis.com/building/the-westin-charlotte-charlotte-nc-usa

Edited September 7, 2013 by cityboi

[zalo]

LOL, you're really "sensitive" about size......

[cityboi]

Steven Tanger of Greensboro based Tanger Outlets will donate 7.5 million toward the performing arts center. Instead of being called GPAC, the name of the facility will be called "Steven Tanger Center for the Performing Arts."

 

http://www.news-record.com/gallery/news/collection_35551502-1988-11e3-a7f7-0019bb30f31a.html

 

http://myfox8.com/2013/09/09/whats-next-for-gpac/

 

http://www.wral.com/tanger-pledges-greensboro-7-5-for-arts-center/12866938/

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/09/09/3179840/tanger-pledges-greensboro-75-for.html

Edited September 10, 2013 by cityboi

[cityboi]

councilman Matheny stated that a company is looking to move downtown because of the performing arts center and it could "send it over the edge". This is a huge investment for downtown and it has already sparked two hotel projects.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/blog/2013/09/steven-tanger-to-greensboros.html?page=all

 

 

http://m.wxii12.com/news/tanger-center-for-the-performing-arts-steven-tanger-pledges-75m-gift-to-gpac/-/17443006/21847954/-/10ghjw/-/index.html

 

"The center, expected to cost $60 million, would be located on land bordered by North Elm Street, East Lindsay Street and Summit Avenue. Groundbreaking is expected to take place in June 2014 with a proposed opening in 2016.

 

Tanger said the center will have superior acoustics and cutting-edge technology and be one of the most beautiful in the Southeast.

 

Private donations will pay for about half the center's cost, while city revenue from hotel taxes, ticket user fees and parking fees will pay for the other half."

 

The center's website, tangerperformingarts.com, is expected to launch in October.

 

Here is a website placeholder with the center logo but the official launch of the website will be in October

 

http://www.tangerperformingarts.com/

Edited September 11, 2013 by cityboi

[zalo]

Here's another reporter questioning the mathematics of the City's proposed source of funding for their portion of the PAC financing. It appears that he too is perplexed as to how the City is going to encourage patrons to pay $20 or more for parking next to the PAC when much cheaper parking is easily accessible a block or two away. Very curious as to how the City Council keeps a straight face in speaking on this...

http://greensborofreepress.com/a-pack-gpac-of-lies-part-1-the-10-million-deception/

Edited September 15, 2013 by zalo

[Urbanity]

The bottom line is the GPAC downtown is going to happen, and I'm glad for Greensboro!     A lot of the "against" articles I read on the subject seem to be trying to find some kind of "A-HA!" discovery to make it fall apart which I doubt is going to happen.

 

Is all the financing plans transparent and/or fully thought out?  No.  As is the case with many civic projects to be honest.   

 

Will there likely be the need to pull money out of the Greensboro budget for years to come regardless of what planners and city leaders say?  Absolutely.  It's the nature of the beast.

 

I think all the in-fighting in Greensboro is about the civic/planner side not being fully upfront about probable future cost issues/and the against side blowing it all out of proportion.  (And for love of God - please don't let someone post right now that there will be no such cost overruns or hidden costs because the city and planners said there will not be  ).  This is something that happens in every city. 

 

On point - Just look at the land purchases so far where the city had a land acquisition budget of $7.6 m and now is pushed to 11.5 million. Source.  

 

Personally I agree with doubts about the overall return for the premium parking revenue of  $15-20 which zalo's article talks about and I agree is the weakest part of the financing plan. Why? Basic comparison.

 

Parking for Charlotte's Blumenthal  (for Belk/Booth/Stage theatres) is also across the street from the theatres (and connected via pedestrian bridge) is only $5 and is very convenient (you can pay for it when you buy tickets or at the show itself).   In Durham - Parking for the attached garage is only $5.00 as well and the garages that are only 1-2 blocks aways are $4 and $3 respectively. 

 

Now Charlotte does also offers a valet service which I assume is anywhere from an additional $5-10 so perhaps that is what Greensboro is planning with their "premium" parking but I don't think that about 200-250 people an event take advantage of that service in Charlotte as the numbers for the GPAC premium parking suggests is needed to fully fund that aspect of their financing. Though who knows - maybe I'm wrong and that many cars do use valet.

 

Again - the Downtown GPAC is a done deal (minus some unforeseen amazing circumstance like the city voting against the financing of the land purchases tonight at their meeting) and I think it is a great thing for the city.   They should be proud of themselves for seeing this going to happen.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Urbanity

[zalo]

I do wish them luck with this and it most certainly is going forward so there shouldn't be a worry for the supporters from that regard. I just find myself dumbstruck at the horrendously backhanded and intellectually dishonest way a number of the people involved in this endeavor from both the Council as well as certain citizens working thru the Community Foundation have conducted the business of getting this built. A lie is lie regardless of whether its done for a perceived good or not. The City investigating the goal of having the municipal contribution to this project being financed thru user fees and targeted taxes such as the hotel/motel tax is the right avenue to pursue to cover the payments. If there were no other city funds available beyond what could be raised through these sources, that's when the private sector steps in and takes it from there in order to secure the remaining funds needed for construction.

 

 The outrage is attempting to come up with $10 million from parking fees when that scenario makes absolutely no common sense and will not happen. It destroys the credibility of the City government when fiduciary issues are at play. If they are no more honest about the true outcome of this so called revenue projection, how can the citizens have any trust in government when it says they are spending the taxpayers monies wisely. It is precisely this type of conduct by public officials that have a pretty good majority of the public so sour on government in general

[cityboi]

In the end this will still be a city owned facility so additional public money will have to support its upkeep just like the coliseum and the aquatic center. This is common across the country. Consider Greensboro lucky. A number of venues in Greensboro that were privately built such as the convention center and ballpark are publicly financed in most cities and Greensboro is seeing an unprecedented amount of private support in the performing arts center. This is no small feat for a city Greensboro's size. Many larger cities cant even pull that off. I have a feeling there is another element to the performing arts center that hasn't been discussed in the public arena though. There have been hints from city council persons of office space and a company looking downtown because of the performing arts center and then we hear about another piece of property that will be purchased for associated projects. A new preliminary rendering of the PAC even shows a tower of some sort attached to the PAC.......

 

even though this is not the final rendering, a high-rise tower is clearly seen attached to the performing arts center. It could be a hotel, office tower or a combination of both. It would be nice to see 3 tall buildings built over the next three years. It looks like the 10-story downtown Wyndham hotel is ago and Roy Carroll's 8-story hotel project will be under way, both of which were sparked by the progress of the performing arts center. If a large existing Greensboro company is looking to build or lease a corporate tower, it would most likely be VF Corp. Its the only Greensboro based company not downtown, with exception to Volvo Trucks of North America, that would require enough office space for at least a 12 story tower and add to the fact that VF Corp's Wrangler Jeans division headquarters is across the street from the PAC site at the corner of North Elm and Lindsay Streets. It certainly would make sense to have both corporate offices near each other. VF Corp is Greensboro's only fortune 500 company and is the world's largest apparel company. Greensboro may finally be on the verge of seeing the kind of downtown projects Charlotte and Raleigh have been seeing over the past 10 to 15 years.

 

Edited September 19, 2013 by cityboi

[zalo]

The point is not operating costs, that's a given that the City will incur more deficit spending yearly to maintain it. The Squirrely financing I speak of is concerning the upfront development cost to construct the facility. BTW, regarding Charlotte/Raleigh type of downtown projects in GSO, you are forgetting Center City Park.

Edited September 19, 2013 by zalo

[cityboi]

The point is not operating costs, that's a given that the City will incur more deficit spending yearly to maintain it. The Squirrely financing I speak of is concerning the upfront development cost to construct the facility. BTW, regarding Charlotte/Raleigh type of downtown projects in GSO, you are forgetting Center City Park.

 

 

 

considering how many other cities have financed PACs, Greensboro is in much better shape in regards to financing.

[zalo]

considering how many other cities have financed PACs, Greensboro is in much better shape in regards to financing.

 

That remains highly debatable....

[cityboi]

The Steven Tanger Center for the Performing Arts is down to two finalist for the architects. The final design will be complete by January.

 

http://www.news-record.com/news/article_65db2208-abb5-5d4e-bd5f-f0f688eb3a90.html

[cityboi]

The city only has to purchase one more property

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/blog/2013/11/and-then-there-was-one-greensboro.html

Edited November 3, 2013 by cityboi

[cityboi]

once the last piece of property is purchased and the final design is revealed in January, we could see construction begin sometime next year. its suppose to open in 2016 but i dont know how long it takes to build a PAC like this.

[cityboi]

The groundbreaking for the Steven Tanger Center for the Performing Arts begins next fall. However some demolition will take place in the next week or two. The old Greensboro Inn motel, which has been an eyesore for years is coming down.

 

http://www.news-record.com/news/local_news/article_3f373635-0bb8-5230-9fd4-8677ed23866a.html

[cityboi]

H3 Hardy Collaboration Architecture has been selected for the design team for The Steven Tanger Center for The Performing Arts. The 3,000 seat center will cost $65 million and will be paid for by donors, user fees and hotel/motel tax.

 

http://www.greensboro-nc.gov/index.aspx?page=36&recordid=4993&returnURL=%2Findex.aspx

Edited December 14, 2013 by cityboi