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Steven Tanger Center for the Performing Arts


cityboi

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15 hours ago, HRVT said:

The difference is that in New York, there is actual demand for space. Developers build the space and the space is leased. In several years in trying to attract interest to Project 561, Carroll got  few nibbles but nothing more.  He didn't get any commitments. It's one thing to have those competitions if the space is going to get filled. But building a building simply to build it is foolish and ends up accomplishing the exact opposite of what is intended (instead of building the city's credibility, it diminishes it).

The city should be more focused on developments like Project Slugger. Heck, if they hadn't shiny red balled on Project 561, it would probably still be a 9 story project and current under construction. It might not generate enthusiasm to the degree of Project 561, but you know what dampens enthusiasm? Failed project after failed project.

His tower project for the corner of Bellemeade and Eugene was changed not because of interest in space. The city was on a tight schedule with the deck so that Project Slugger would have parking. Now Caroll is doing a land swap with the city and putting his project on the opposite eND of the block. He has not revealed details about the new location so it very well still may be a tower. Not as tall as originally planned because it wouldn't be sitting on a deck. In general 561 is acheivable for Greensboro if it's a mixed-use tower. People keep making out like Its all office space. Of course 561 feet of office space is unrealistic. However there was an article about few days that came out saying office demand is strong in both Greensboro and Winston-Salem.

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11 hours ago, cityboi said:

His tower project for the corner of Bellemeade and Eugene was changed not because of interest in space. The city was on a tight schedule with the deck so that Project Slugger would have parking. Now Caroll is doing a land swap with the city and putting his project on the opposite eND of the block. He has not revealed details about the new location so it very well still may be a tower. Not as tall as originally planned because it wouldn't be sitting on a deck. In general 561 is acheivable for Greensboro if it's a mixed-use tower. People keep making out like Its all office space. Of course 561 feet of office space is unrealistic. However there was an article about few days that came out saying office demand is strong in both Greensboro and Winston-Salem.

So as a parking deck/hotel/office space building (that later added potential residential because there wasn't any demand for the office space), it was still a pie in the sky dream. But now that the parking deck is going elsewhere and the hotel also appears to be separate, you're saying the project is still realistic? I like your optimism man, but that's just absurd.

Right now IMO, the aim should be on Project Slugger and making sure that goes up and is successful. In a couple years, it'll be time for more new projects... but they shouldn't be focused on size, they should be focused on demand and how to improve downtown. Building a really tall building so we can say that we built a really tall building shouldn't even be a consideration. Instead of Project 561, the aim should be instead of getting a few mid rise projects going... and maybe a high rise office tower of more realistic size (ie: 200' and MAYBE 300' or so). That said, I'm not sure Carroll is the developer to get that going given that he's struggling to put out a mid-rise apartment building and hotel (we're already going into year 4 of construction of a project that should have taken two years ABSOLUTE TOPS..... and it's not like the building is THAT close to finished, it's probably 75% done at most).

 

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11 hours ago, HRVT said:

So as a parking deck/hotel/office space building (that later added potential residential because there wasn't any demand for the office space), it was still a pie in the sky dream. But now that the parking deck is going elsewhere and the hotel also appears to be separate, you're saying the project is still realistic? I like your optimism man, but that's just absurd.

Right now IMO, the aim should be on Project Slugger and making sure that goes up and is successful. In a couple years, it'll be time for more new projects... but they shouldn't be focused on size, they should be focused on demand and how to improve downtown. Building a really tall building so we can say that we built a really tall building shouldn't even be a consideration. Instead of Project 561, the aim should be instead of getting a few mid rise projects going... and maybe a high rise office tower of more realistic size (ie: 200' and MAYBE 300' or so). That said, I'm not sure Carroll is the developer to get that going given that he's struggling to put out a mid-rise apartment building and hotel (we're already going into year 4 of construction of a project that should have taken two years ABSOLUTE TOPS..... and it's not like the building is THAT close to finished, it's probably 75% done at most).

 

I said the concept is realistic. Because of the change of events, it's not going to happen in this particular project unless he really puts ALOT of residential in the building which I doubt he would. It would mean well over 300 units in one single complex which is something we arent seeing in downtown at this time. The building sitting on top of the deck was key.

Also the delays at Carroll at Bellemeade had nothing to do with residential demand.

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54 minutes ago, urbanpirate said:

Still working out the kinks for that Triumph Center!  lol 

Believe it or not he still has an updated website looking for investors. Lol Ironically just about everything in his grand proposal is already happening separately by different developers.

He planned a big music hall. Well the Steven Tanger Center is going up. He planned hotels, one of which would have been upscale/luxury. Well four are going up which includes an upscale/luxury Westin. He also planned office and residential. Well that's happening too. Finally his proposed convention center. Well city leaders are already hinting a convention complex may go up on the News and Record property near his proposed site for a convention center. Looks like he's a little late. Guess his vision wasn't so ridiculous after all. It's just not happening in one big complex. Everything is happening organically.

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17 minutes ago, cityboi said:

Finally his proposed convention center. Well city leaders are already hinting a convention complex may go up on the News and Record property near his proposed site for a convention center. Looks like he's a little late. Guess his vision wasn't so ridiculous after all. It's just not happening in one big complex. Everything is happening organically.

Why would Greensboro leaders be looking at another convention complex? It doesn't make sense, especially with the coliseum and Koury. Not to mention, Greensboro lacks the major hotel space that would help make convention centers profitable. Also, a convention center just doesn't seem like the smartest use of land. In fact, most convention centers kill street life in cities. 

That all being said, it does look like Greensboro is having a moment in terms of development. I personally like the scale of most of the projects: mainly mid-rise to smaller hi-rise (15 stores tops). I think that is healthy for Greensboro to achieve. Really, I think Greensboro should continue developing the corridors that reach UNCG and A&T, as well as the coliseum and Koury complexes because I think those offer the best chances at densification and true urban fabric. 

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38 minutes ago, Rufus said:

Why would Greensboro leaders be looking at another convention complex? It doesn't make sense, especially with the coliseum and Koury. Not to mention, Greensboro lacks the major hotel space that would help make convention centers profitable. Also, a convention center just doesn't seem like the smartest use of land. In fact, most convention centers kill street life in cities. 

That all being said, it does look like Greensboro is having a moment in terms of development. I personally like the scale of most of the projects: mainly mid-rise to smaller hi-rise (15 stores tops). I think that is healthy for Greensboro to achieve. Really, I think Greensboro should continue developing the corridors that reach UNCG and A&T, as well as the coliseum and Koury complexes because I think those offer the best chances at densification and true urban fabric. 

I think what city leaders are looking at downtown is a smaller convention facility, not on the level of the Koury Convention Center. With the new hotels coming downtown it will generate a need for downtown convention space. In turn, the convention space helps fill the hotel beds. They would feed off of each other. Besides there is enough conferences and conventions to go around to have multiple convention facilities in the city and I think Greensboro should do more to market itself as a convention destination given the city's central location and transportation infrastructure.

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1 hour ago, cityboi said:

I think what city leaders are looking at downtown is a smaller convention facility, not on the level of the Koury Convention Center. With the new hotels coming downtown it will generate a need for downtown convention space. In turn, the convention space helps fill the hotel beds. They would feed off of each other. Besides there is enough conferences and conventions to go around to have multiple convention facilities in the city and I think Greensboro should do more to market itself as a convention destination given the city's central location and transportation infrastructure.

I think a small convention center could work in downtown Greensboro. Nothing big, but something that attract a few conferences and the like. Perhaps the N&R site could be used for some kind of entertainment/convention center hybrid. Think Charlotte's Epicentre (on a much smaller scale) combined with some convention space and of course a hotel or two (at about 6-8 stories or so). Perhaps you could even incorporate an apartment tower in the mix... or at least within the block space.

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2 hours ago, Rufus said:

That all being said, it does look like Greensboro is having a moment in terms of development. I personally like the scale of most of the projects: mainly mid-rise to smaller hi-rise (15 stores tops). I think that is healthy for Greensboro to achieve. 

I agree about the scale of downtown Greensboro. Instead of wasting time on the idiotic Project 561 idea, the city should be focusing on a quantity of projects at a smaller scale. A few successful 7-15 story projects will do MUCH more for the city's urban development than a huge monstrosity of a tower built to satisfy the ego of a developer and a few local politicians that never fully takes off and is largely empty.

If some smaller projects are successful (and the 6-story Project Slugger would be a start as will the Carroll at Bellmeade whenever that gets finished), then perhaps the city can start thinking bigger (think 15-20 years down the road).

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21 minutes ago, HRVT said:

I think a small convention center could work in downtown Greensboro. Nothing big, but something that attract a few conferences and the like. Perhaps the N&R site could be used for some kind of entertainment/convention center hybrid. Think Charlotte's Epicentre (on a much smaller scale) combined with some convention space and of course a hotel or two (at about 6-8 stories or so). Perhaps you could even incorporate an apartment tower in the mix... or at least within the block space.

What ever goes on the News and Record property, it will like be a public/private partnership. Records show the developer of  the future Westin, Greg Dillon is in the process or has purchased the site which raises a red flag this developer may want a small convention center across from his Westin hotel. More than likely it would be a mixed-use development with the convention center as the anchor. If the city gets involved, I sure hope they don't  make a mess of it  in regards to the process like they did withave the Tanger Center and the Westin/city deck.

15 minutes ago, HRVT said:

I agree about the scale of downtown Greensboro. Instead of wasting time on the idiotic Project 561 idea, the city should be focusing on a quantity of projects at a smaller scale. A few successful 7-15 story projects will do MUCH more for the city's urban development than a huge monstrosity of a tower built to satisfy the ego of a developer and a few local politicians that never fully takes off and is largely empty.

If some smaller projects are successful (and the 6-story Project Slugger would be a start as will the Carroll at Bellmeade whenever that gets finished), then perhaps the city can start thinking bigger (think 15-20 years down the road).

Why think small? That's not what forward thinking cities do. 15-20 stories down the road? Towers that tall have been built in downtown since 1923. Greensboro reached that level almost a century ago.

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11 hours ago, urbanpirate said:

Still working out the kinks for that Triumph Center!  lol 

How I miss the Triumph Center! Hopefully he gets this resurrected as I have waited over 10 years for this thing to rise out of the GSO. 

 

10 hours ago, cityboi said:

Believe it or not he still has an updated website looking for investors. Lol Ironically just about everything in his grand proposal is already happening separately by different developers.

He has persistence, that's for sure.

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11 hours ago, cityboi said:

Why think small? That's not what forward thinking cities do. 15-20 stories down the road? Towers that tall have been built in downtown since 1923. Greensboro reached that level almost a century ago.

It's not about thinking small. It's about thinking smart. Towers require a lot of investment for a lot of return. Speculative office buildings are not going to be built above mid-rise in Greensboro, at least for the time being. You don't want to build a big tower only for it to sit there half empty. I think what the city is doing is building a critical mass of development to get people to downtown again. You have the baseball field, train station, performing arts center, university buildings, hotels. These are things that bring people downtown, gain their interest, and drive the future of development in the city. Skyscrapers are great and pretty, but they really are just that. You need vibrancy and activity and vitality to an urban center.

I personally think GSO is not capitalizing enough on its "gateway" moniker and character. This is a city that sits at the convergence of three interstates, major shipping routes, and rail lines. It is a massive industrial center for North Carolina. I would love to see city leaders begin to invest in the city as not separate from the infrastructure...if that makes sense. You need to make GSO a place to stop, not drive through. There is real potential in the city to become a great urban crossroads for the state and region, and I don't think leaders recognize that importance. 

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38 minutes ago, Rufus said:

It's not about thinking small. It's about thinking smart. Towers require a lot of investment for a lot of return. Speculative office buildings are not going to be built above mid-rise in Greensboro, at least for the time being. You don't want to build a big tower only for it to sit there half empty. I think what the city is doing is building a critical mass of development to get people to downtown again. You have the baseball field, train station, performing arts center, university buildings, hotels. These are things that bring people downtown, gain their interest, and drive the future of development in the city. Skyscrapers are great and pretty, but they really are just that. You need vibrancy and activity and vitality to an urban center.

I personally think GSO is not capitalizing enough on its "gateway" moniker and character. This is a city that sits at the convergence of three interstates, major shipping routes, and rail lines. It is a massive industrial center for North Carolina. I would love to see city leaders begin to invest in the city as not separate from the infrastructure...if that makes sense. You need to make GSO a place to stop, not drive through. There is real potential in the city to become a great urban crossroads for the state and region, and I don't think leaders recognize that importance. 

The thing you have to look at is that Greensboro has a small downtown. So the city really needs to look at land uses for the next 50 years. Greensboro can't keep building low-rise to midrise structures. Smart planning for a downtown Greensboro's size is vertical construction. I'm not saying every building has to be 20 plus stories but Greensboro doesn't want to find itself in a situation 20 or 30 years from now where its  downtown really can't grow because of sprawling complexes like CityView apartments. The purpose of skyscrapers is to maximize land use on limited property. Downtown Greensboro is not blessed with a lot of vacant land like some other cities.

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On 8/2/2018 at 12:24 PM, cityboi said:

The thing you have to look at is that Greensboro has a small downtown. So the city really needs to look at land uses for the next 50 years. Greensboro can't keep building low-rise to midrise structures. Smart planning for a downtown Greensboro's size is vertical construction. I'm not saying every building has to be 20 plus stories but Greensboro doesn't want to find itself in a situation 20 or 30 years from now where its  downtown really can't grow because of sprawling complexes like CityView apartments. The purpose of skyscrapers is to maximize land use on limited property. Downtown Greensboro is not blessed with a lot of vacant land like some other cities.

But is there really such a dire shortage of places to build? Sure, there might not be a lot of vacant land, but this is true of most downtowns. Developments that are in downtown are typically replacing something that's already there rather than built on land that was not built on. And IMO, there are a ton of locations where building can occur to replace a current structure.

Rufus is indisputably correct. Greensboro needs to think smart about development. It's not about having the biggest tower, it's about making the best downtown possible. Nobody is talking about having dozens of mid-rise projects office projects in lieu of Project 561. As Rufus says, things need to be done to make Greensboro a destination. People aren't going to come from all over to fawn over a 500+ foot tall building. The PAC is a very positive development. The hotels going up (potentially) are also good developments. Hopefully this can lead to a better restaurant scene and other entertainment options downtown. This can lead to increased demand downtown which can ultimately lead to bigger and better developments (maybe even a Project 561). 

But jumping straight to Project 561 is like winning the opening tip in basketball and immediately heaving a 3/4 court shot. Or opening a football game with three straight Hail Mary plays. You have build the infrastructure that can increase the demand downtown and then when the demand is there, you can go for the vertical development. Heck, some of the most prime real estate downtown has a friggin parking garage on it. Down the road, maybe that spot can be where a larger office project goes (on top of a replacement parking garage).

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2 hours ago, HRVT said:

But is there really such a dire shortage of places to build? Sure, there might not be a lot of vacant land, but this is true of most downtowns. Developments that are in downtown are typically replacing something that's already there rather than built on land that was not built on. And IMO, there are a ton of locations where building can occur to replace a current structure.

Rufus is indisputably correct. Greensboro needs to think smart about development. It's not about having the biggest tower, it's about making the best downtown possible. Nobody is talking about having dozens of mid-rise projects office projects in lieu of Project 561. As Rufus says, things need to be done to make Greensboro a destination. People aren't going to come from all over to fawn over a 500+ foot tall building. The PAC is a very positive development. The hotels going up (potentially) are also good developments. Hopefully this can lead to a better restaurant scene and other entertainment options downtown. This can lead to increased demand downtown which can ultimately lead to bigger and better developments (maybe even a Project 561). 

But jumping straight to Project 561 is like winning the opening tip in basketball and immediately heaving a 3/4 court shot. Or opening a football game with three straight Hail Mary plays. You have build the infrastructure that can increase the demand downtown and then when the demand is there, you can go for the vertical development. Heck, some of the most prime real estate downtown has a friggin parking garage on it. Down the road, maybe that spot can be where a larger office project goes (on top of a replacement parking garage).

I just don't see the reason why Greensboro should back away from building towers. Why is ok for Charlotte and Raleigh to do it but not Greensboro? Is development in their downtowns an example of poor planning? Of course there has to be demand but if developers can pull it off we should be supportive of that. 561 or a variation of it that Carroll had planned across from the ballpark made sense because there was very limited land and in order to build what Carroll wanted on the property he had to go vertical. So it wasn't him just wanting to build a tower for the sake of building a tower. Yes there is a lot more to vibrant growing downtowns than just skyscrapers but the truth of the matter is that a city is judged by its growing skyline because it's an indicator of a progressive urban city that's on the move. Greensboro will never be like Charlotte in my lifetime but I do want the city to grow far beyond a medium sized city that no one around the country has never heard of except for during the ACC Tournament, during the Wyndham Championship or a brief history note of the Woolworth sitins. I want to see Greensboro become a larger and more urban cosmopolitan city.

A 561 tower in downtown Greensboro mixed use or office is doable. And 561 of office space can happen under the right circumstances. Consider this. If you were to stack the 1990 Lincoln Financial addition on top of the 1923 portion, it would exceed 561 feet in height and that's one company taking up all of that office space. It would be equivalent to a 55 story office tower with the Pyramid top making it close to the height of the Bank of America tower in Charlotte. If you were to add the office space Lincoln Financial is using in the former 5 story Bank of America building next to it that's equivalent to a 60 story office tower. Lincoln Financial in its building in downtown Greensboro along with the 5 story building next to it uses just about the same amount of office space Bank of America uses in its corporate tower in Charlotte.

Ifattract more big corporate office space users, it can happen. Greensboro does need to attract more white collar corporations. To do that the city needs to take advantage of its history of being an insurance hub. This is the direction Greensboro needs to go to attract large white collar corporations. Greensboro can become a major player in the insurance side of the  financial sector. But we have to have city leaders that really want to push Greensboro up into the big leagues. I would love for Greensboro to eventually attract big insurance companies like Met Life the same way Charlotte attracted the Bank of America on the banking side of the financial sector. Greensboro will never become a banking hub but it can become a major insurance hub. We already have those roots here with Lincoln Financial and Arch Capital's presence.

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3 hours ago, cityboi said:

I just don't see the reason why Greensboro should back away from building towers. Why is ok for Charlotte and Raleigh to do it but not Greensboro? Is development in their downtowns an example of poor planning? Of course there has to be demand but if developers can pull it off we should be supportive of that. 561 or a variation of it that Carroll had planned across from the ballpark made sense because there was very limited land and in order to build what Carroll wanted on the property he had to go vertical. So it wasn't him just wanting to build a tower for the sake of building a tower. Yes there is a lot more to vibrant growing downtowns than just skyscrapers but the truth of the matter is that a city is judged by its growing skyline because it's an indicator of a progressive urban city that's on the move. Greensboro will never be like Charlotte in my lifetime but I do want the city to grow far beyond a medium sized city that no one around the country has never heard of except for during the ACC Tournament, during the Wyndham Championship or a brief history note of the Woolworth sitins. I want to see Greensboro become a larger and more urban cosmopolitan city.

 

I'd love to see Greensboro become larger as well, but that doesn't happen overnight and one really tall monstrosity that towers above all the others doesn't really accomplish that. Charlotte and Raleigh have major development going on because there's demand for those major developments. For office space that is built, there's a demand for it and tenants that are lined up for once the towers are built. One reason Project Slugger is 6 stories now is because the initial demand for 9 stories was reduced when one of the previously committed tenants backed out. As for Carroll's space, whether he HAD to go vertical or not, going vertical is far more expensive than going horizontal. So not only does there have to be a demand for office space, but there has to be a demand from those willing to pay a premium for prestigious office space in downtown Greensboro. Carroll didn't have a lot of luck with that in his attempts to get Project 561 off the ground. He literally had NOTHING lined up. To build Project 561 won't necessarily require that ever square foot is accounted for... but a significant percentage would need to be before construction could begin.

Quote

A 561 tower in downtown Greensboro mixed use or office is doable. And 561 of office space can happen under the right circumstances. Consider this. If you were to stack the 1990 Lincoln Financial addition on top of the 1923 portion, it would exceed 561 feet in height and that's one company taking up all of that office space. It would be equivalent to a 55 story office tower with the Pyramid top making it close to the height of the Bank of America tower in Charlotte. If you were to add the office space Lincoln Financial is using in the former 5 story Bank of America building next to it that's equivalent to a 60 story office tower. Lincoln Financial in its building in downtown Greensboro along with the 5 story building next to it uses just about the same amount of office space Bank of America uses in its corporate tower in Charlotte.

That sounds great in theory, but you're talking about essentially two different buildings that were built 60 years apart. I mean, we can play that game in a lot of different cities. If Charlotte combined the height of all of their Bank of America towers/buildings, then the main Bank of America tower would be taller than the new Freedom Tower in NYC.  If you stacked all of BB&T's office space in the Triad on top of their main tower in Winston-Salem, then BB&T's headquarters would be taller than Project 561 would theoretically be. Also in your theoretical example, you'd be removing quite a large piece of the downtown Greensboro skyline by removing the footprint of the old tower (or the new one... depending on where you built this stacked tower).

Basically, this isn't Sim City we're talking about. You don't just pick/design a building and plop it down. City leaders have to strategically think about how to build the demand for development at which point when that demand develops, the actual buildings can develop. The city would do far better to concentrate on mid-rise development and maybe a shorter high-rise or two (think 12-15 stories optimistically) for the next 10-15 years.  There just isn't any demand for anything more at this point. By focusing on the infrastructure and improving what Greensboro has to offer, that demand could potentially increase and make Greensboro more attractive to prospective insurance companies (or other employers) looking to locate and/or expand to Greensboro. It is only at THAT point when the city may be ready for larger development.

Oh and by the way, very few people really care about the skyline of a city. The biggest effect a great skyline has on 99.99% of the population is the occasional thought/expression of "wow, what a cool skyline". VERY VERY few people actually think "man, insert city name here has a great skyline and thus must be a great city". They judge the city by what the city has to offer, what there is to do, the jobs/employment opportunities that are there etc. That is ESPECIALLY true of companies looking to locate jobs into a city.

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8 hours ago, HRVT said:

So not only does there have to be a demand for office space, but there has to be a demand from those willing to pay a premium for prestigious office space in downtown Greensboro. Carroll didn't have a lot of luck with that in his attempts to get Project 561 off the ground. He literally had NOTHING lined up.

I've said this before. Companies must be willing to pay a premium to lease office space in a downtown tower, and most companies will not, and can not, justify that extra expense in a tower in downtown Greensboro. It's not like a tower in New York where companies can justify the premium simply because that tower is in New York City. There is nothing compelling going on in downtown Greensboro that would make any company do that, and the GPAC doesn't count.

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10 hours ago, HRVT said:

Oh and by the way, very few people really care about the skyline of a city. The biggest effect a great skyline has on 99.99% of the population is the occasional thought/expression of "wow, what a cool skyline". VERY VERY few people actually think "man, insert city name here has a great skyline and thus must be a great city". They judge the city by what the city has to offer, what there is to do, the jobs/employment opportunities that are there etc. That is ESPECIALLY true of companies looking to locate jobs into a city.

It almost feels like this poster doesn't care about the realities of the situation. The obsession to get a tower to "make" Greensboro look the part is what's driving this mania. And the sad part of this is that he is not the only one in Greensboro who sees things this way. Both Carroll and Kotis, for example, have publicly made statements that indicate that their focus is on building developments that will "make" Greensboro more attractive to outsiders and competitive with other NC cities.

Meanwhile, the crime in this city is getting out of control, you've got a city, county, and regional government that is basically clueless, developers who can't seem to get their acts together and deliver projects in a timely manner, and a host of other issues. Until this city starts to focus on addressing the core issues plaguing the city, no amount of shiny developments, whether it's a high rise or not, is going to change Greensboro's image and attract major investments.

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Bottom line, downtown Greensboro is just far removed from view, the highway that is, and doesn’t have it....as in core means or demand for anything approaching 500+. 

 

This is a head-in-the-clouds notion.  Don’t expect anything half as tall, anytime soon or in the near future.  Greensboro just doesn’t measure up.

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4 minutes ago, RichardC said:

Bottom line, downtown Greensboro is just far removed from view, the highway that is, and doesn’t have it....as in core means or demand for anything approaching 500+. 

 

This is another reason why a tall tower makes no sense in downtown Greensboro. It's can't be easily seen from the interstates, and seeing the tower spire from miles away doesn't count.

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28 minutes ago, RALNATIVE said:

It almost feels like this poster doesn't care about the realities of the situation. The obsession to get a tower to "make" Greensboro look the part is what's driving this mania. And the sad part of this is that he is not the only one in Greensboro who sees things this way. Both Carroll and Kotis, for example, have publicly made statements that indicate that their focus is on building developments that will "make" Greensboro more attractive to outsiders.

Meanwhile, the crime in this city is getting out of control, you've got a city, county, and regional government that is basically clueless, developers who can't seem to get their acts together and deliver projects in a timely manner, and a host of other issues. Until this city starts to focus on addressing the core issues plaguing the city, no amount of shiny developments, whether it's a high rise or not, is going to change Greensboro's image and attract major investments.

Well I think a big part of it is that so many people buy into the notion that Carroll and to a lesser extent Kotis push that building these big developments makes Greensboro more attractive to outsiders... but it's not even the real reason these notions are pushed. That's not the real motivation these developers have. What they're really looking is to make money (and if they can sell a dream, they may be able to minimize the investment they need to make through incentives). Just as important (if not more important) is that these developers want to build a massive structure to satisfy their own egos. If a Project 561 were to come to fruition (it won't in the next 10-15 years at the least), Carroll would be able to have something to point to for the rest of his life (knowing full well it'll be there long after he's gone too) to say "I DID THAT!!!!" Carroll specifically chose Greensboro for these developments because they (the politicians and enough of the well-connected) buy into this notion in a way that Winston-Salem does not (Winston-Salem has a much smarter growth strategy right now that is going to pay dividends in the long run IMO).

But yes, what's more important is to get crime under control, improve education (which I know is more through the county... but the city can certainly have a lot of influence here either way), etc. Once those infrastructure issues are improved/corrected, then the city can start to think big. Right now, Greensboro is that kid on the high school JV basketball team who thinks he can take on Steph Curry 1 on 1. Instead they should be focusing on doing what it takes to make varsity.

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16 hours ago, HRVT said:

Well I think a big part of it is that so many people buy into the notion that Carroll and to a lesser extent Kotis push that building these big developments makes Greensboro more attractive to outsiders... but it's not even the real reason these notions are pushed. That's not the real motivation these developers have. What they're really looking is to make money (and if they can sell a dream, they may be able to minimize the investment they need to make through incentives). Just as important (if not more important) is that these developers want to build a massive structure to satisfy their own egos. If a Project 561 were to come to fruition (it won't in the next 10-15 years at the least), Carroll would be able to have something to point to for the rest of his life (knowing full well it'll be there long after he's gone too) to say "I DID THAT!!!!" Carroll specifically chose Greensboro for these developments because they (the politicians and enough of the well-connected) buy into this notion in a way that Winston-Salem does not (Winston-Salem has a much smarter growth strategy right now that is going to pay dividends in the long run IMO).

But yes, what's more important is to get crime under control, improve education (which I know is more through the county... but the city can certainly have a lot of influence here either way), etc. Once those infrastructure issues are improved/corrected, then the city can start to think big. Right now, Greensboro is that kid on the high school JV basketball team who thinks he can take on Steph Curry 1 on 1. Instead they should be focusing on doing what it takes to make varsity.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I've been making these same arguments for years and it falls on deaf ears. There is a reason why these flim flam and bogus developers come to Greensboro with grandiose ideas that are basically pipe dreams. The city government seems to be so desperate to spur any type of development that they will entertain almost anything.

 

Of course the ego thing is a factor for developers like Carroll, but in the long run his ego is not doing Greensboro and its citizens any favors.

 

I have long suspected the reason why Winston-Salem avoids dealing with Greensboro is for the reasons that you pointed out. That city seems to be headed in the right direction growth wise, and that may be why so many in Greensboro are intimidated when they see anything positive coming out of W-S.

Edited by RALNATIVE
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