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What will follow all the hotels in SOBRO


nashwatcher

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Could not agree more. William and I were talking about this earlier in the summer. There is going to be a lot more traffic on the back streets and these need to be expanded for sure.

What? Why? To accommodate vehicle traffic? In my opinion--lest I offend anyone and they leave the forum:)--the off-kilter and narrow backstreets of SoBro are perfect for developing fine-grained, pedestrian-oriented streets which in time could become a funky and interesting little enclave while northern SoBro is turned into corporate, soul-less big box land. The last thing we want is to open up the area to more vehicle traffic; that is unless we want it to stay the auto-focused, single-use warehouse district it is now.

There are thousands of cities around the world that work just fine without a grid system, and with weird, windy, narrow, labyrinthine streets. Here is an opportunity for Nashville to develop a dense, pedestrian-focused district; no need to mess that up by wasting square footage for concrete and cars.

Also, the intersections where streets don't align could turn into round-a-bouts.

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There are thousands of cities around the world that work just fine without a grid system, and with weird, windy, narrow, labyrinthine streets. Here is an opportunity for Nashville to develop a dense, pedestrian-focused district; no need to mess that up by wasting square footage for concrete and cars.

Also, the intersections where streets don't align could turn into round-a-bouts.

I agree totally. When I was in London I was totally lost in two minutes every time I walked out of the hotel. There's something magical about a city like that, surprises around every turn. I don't like a city that reduces to an obvious plan you can map in your head. The map of London is the Underground map, which has no relationship at all to the actual layout of the city.

underground_map.jpg

Look, we have plenty of of highways to deliver cars downtown. Once you're there you can walk or use transit. People complain about congested areas but they flock to them.

I would like to see more pedestrian connections, especially linking the Gulch and Downtown.

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You've obviously not noticed how f***ed up traffic is on the streets of London. The city even charges cars/trucks that enter "the zone". But there is a difference between a city of 10 million built on a medieval system of roads, with a subway underneath... and an underdeveloped area of a southern city with an opportunity to manage its traffic patterns. There is a reason that cities built in the past 200 years are based on a grid... it's sensible: it allows more buildings to be built abutting one another and allows for better flow of traffic. The little sidestreets that Nashvillain is talking about are fine as non-arterial streets. So to envision 10-20 years hence, you need to ask whether or not hundreds of cars would be able to move in/out of that area efficiently when (if) anywhere from 3-6 midsize-to-large office buildings are constructed in the three block area between KVB and Lafayette. So I disagree... it would be a mistake to leave those two streets unaligned.

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You've obviously not noticed how f***ed up traffic is on the streets of London. The city even charges cars/trucks that enter "the zone". But there is a difference between a city of 10 million built on a medieval system of roads, with a subway underneath... and an underdeveloped area of a southern city with an opportunity to manage its traffic patterns. There is a reason that cities built in the past 200 years are based on a grid... it's sensible: it allows more buildings to be built abutting one another and allows for better flow of traffic. The little sidestreets that Nashvillain is talking about are fine as non-arterial streets. So to envision 10-20 years hence, you need to ask whether or not hundreds of cars would be able to move in/out of that area efficiently when (if) anywhere from 3-6 midsize-to-large office buildings are constructed in the three block area between KVB and Lafayette. So I disagree... it would be a mistake to leave those two streets unaligned.

I still think it's a mistake to insist on planning cities for car traffic. It's a mistake to mandate minimum parking spaces for developers building new buildings. It's a mistake to mandate on-street parking. We should be trying to figure out ways to get cars out of the city. Which is why London and other cities make you pay to drive into the central district during business hours. Anyway, London may not be the best comparison for Nashville, but any number of small to mid-size cities in Europe and Asia follow similar development patterns (i.e. no pattern) and function better--for people, not cars--than just about any U.S. city.

I also don't think we should be planning Nashville's growth around the remote possibility that big office towers are the future. We've had two in twenty years. I think smaller scale development in this district would be just fine. You can have small to mid-sized businesses in buildings of 5-15 stories no problem. And you can put all the big buildings on the big street--Korean Veterans Boulevard--which is designed to handle big traffic.

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Could not agree more. William and I were talking about this earlier in the summer. There is going to be a lot more traffic on the back streets and these need to be expanded for sure.

Really, Lea Avenue is the one whose widening/straightening would require the most surgery if it is decided that it is desirable to rework that street.

Peabody is relatively straight right now, but it is pretty narrow as it goes west. There is already a light at Peabody/Hermitage and one at Peabody/Second. It could potentially become an effective connector between LaFayette and Rolling Mill Hill, whereas KVB is pretty far to the north of where development is occurring in RMH.

To me, there are two options for Peabody: (1) leave it largely as it is and it will effectively function as an alley to serve the buildings that will pop up on KVB or (2) widen it slightly in certain spots, add sidewalks where there are none and add a traffic light or two where needed as development occurs. The latter is the only way that I can see Peabody attracting street activated development from 4th to LaFayette that pedestrians would have any reason to use. So in this case, making this particular street more effective for cars would also make it more ripe for development that requires pedestrian friendliness. I do not see this one as an either/or scenario.

Lea Avenue is another matter altogether because of the way that it starts/stops and the way that those sections do not currently align. I can see limited benefit from straightening this street, but really not that much relative to the cost versus encouraging people to use LaFayatte or the numbered streets anyway. I'm fine with having these blocks (5th, 6th from Peabody to LaFayette) be sort of long blocks with an interesting cross street in between. These blocks to me are the ideal development area for restaurants, bars, or some retail uses in low-height buildings along with two-to-four-story residential lofts.

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Wait, since when were grid layouts designed specifically with cars in mind? Grid cities were the idea of the Romans, and perfected by William Penn with Philadelphia in the 17th century and the New York City Commissioners Plan in the very early 1800s (well before streetcars and the like).

There is something charming about cities with winding lanes, but it isn't an efficient way to lay out a city. For an individual who is just trying to find their hotel or a particular location, they're a nightmare.

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Wait, since when were grid layouts designed specifically with cars in mind? Grid cities were the idea of the Romans, and perfected by William Penn with Philadelphia in the 17th century and the New York City Commissioners Plan in the very early 1800s (well before streetcars and the like).

There is something charming about cities with winding lanes, but it isn't an efficient way to lay out a city. For an individual who is just trying to find their hotel or a particular location, they're a nightmare.

Glad you mentioned the streetcars... which (it must be noted) would be much more complicated to install along roads like the crooked Lea Avenue and/or even Demonbreun Street, which is a hodgepodge of wider spots and narrow spots. That's a fine example of the city getting way behind the curve on fixing an arterial street.

And as far as "large" office buildings go in SoBro... I said "midsize-to-large", but that's of course subjective. To me, midsize is 70k-100k sf. Ragland successfully leased their building to a single tenant. And I believe it is entirely reasonable to expect that SoBro would have at least 2-3 of such structures in the next 5-10 years, IF (and here's the key) IF the infrastructure is there to support them. That's why I believe these streets should be realigned (I did not say widened like a boulevard) for this area of SoBro and something will be built in that whole part of SoBro (It cannot be all hotels and apartments).

Remember, Dean wants to have alternatives to Maryland Farms and Cool Springs inside Davidson Co., and the Fairground and Buchanan Point are the likely (apples-to-apples) alternative to offer. However, with the bigger banks and movement to more efficient buildings, there will be continuing demand for office in the core. Before the economic collapse, demand for office in Nashville's core/midtown had reached 500k sf per year.

There is a new study being done right now to help determine the future of SoBro.... I hope they recommend that those two streets are realigned. There is such a surfeit of those winding, narrow streets in the core... Even in SoBro, there are so many other areas where those winding, narrow streets can remain. In fact, some new ones are even being built in the RMH and Bus Barn developments.

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I think there is some opportunity for some middle ground here.

I DO think that it would be wise to plan for smarter urban growth, especially given the somewhat blank slate that places like SoBro and The Gulch have. There are some historic structures, but very few and far between. Most of the land is made up of warehouses, parking lots, and industrial scrub land. That means entire blocks can be redeveloped, and it can happen pretty rapidly. This is a huge advantage over downtown, where city planners have to be more cautious to make sure that new development "fits" with its surroundings. It also means that street improvements are much easier in SoBro and The Gulch. Of course, downtown has a tight street grid...but there is absolutely no room to widen the streets for any purpose (including streetcars or other mass transit).

What we need to balance is the goal of making Nashville a more urban with a more vibrant streetscape and the reality that we are still by and large a very car dependent city. I think KVB will serve the city well as a major thoroughfare, so I don't think there is the need to widen any of the other streets beyond 2 lanes. But I do think it would be smart to fix or at least re-align some small portions of the street grid. I also think we should be looking to make new connections as well, strengthening the street connectivity between the core and the adjacent neighborhoods.

Whether we like it or not, parking and traffic ARE issues that we have to deal with, and will continue to deal with until there is another solution. For those suggesting that we should be like some other cities and discourage the use of cars in our central core...I think that is a very bad idea. If you make it too difficult to GET to downtown, then people will stop coming. That will hurt the businesses downtown, many of which would not be sustainable on just the core population alone. I think tourism would suffer as well without the ease of access (we are a big tourist draw, but we aren't a big city tourist draw).

In the meantime, I think we do have to address parking and traffic solutions, but be working on improving our transit options (whether that be BRT, rail, or streetcar) so that people outside of the 440/Briley loop have an option to get to downtown without a car. We also need to attract the kind of retail and other amenities in our core so that the people who live there won't be as dependent on car travel. Even if you live and work downtown, if you have to shop in Green Hills, it's not easy.

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To Nathan in PHL: I didn't say a grid system was anti-pedestrian or pro-car or anything. I was just trying to make the point that having a street grid isn't entirely necessary and that it isn't necessary for Nashville to realign these streets in order for growth to occur. I gave one suggestion of having small round-a-bouts instead of 4-ways.

To MLBrumby: Smeagolsfree and I believe one other mentioned the necessity of widening the streets in this area. My initial response was to them.

And finally to UTgrad09: I'm a UTgrad03. More importantly, in my humble opinion, we should stop focusing all our energies on visitors to Nashville (not neglecting totally, please understand) and instead focus our energies on residents of Nashville. Having said that, it's currently easy and straightforward to get downtown. There's currently lots of places to park. There's currently a free bus circulator that takes people--residents, workers, tourists, whomever--to many spots of interest downtown and in the Gulch. I don't see why this one little tiny part of downtown, with the humble businesses, parking lots, and wacky streets, must be made to accommodate tourists and suburbanites. If there are a lot of businesses there, and lots of homes there, and lots of bars and restaurants and other entertainment venues there, people will want to go there. And if it's a cool enough spot, they'll probably find a way to do it even if they can't park the car at the front door. We're not talking vast distances here.

My point is, if we keep our cities focused on cars, then people will keep using them to get around town and nothing will ever change. What's the incentive? If our cities are broken, why keep doing the same things that broke them in the first place?

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Whether we like it or not, parking and traffic ARE issues that we have to deal with, and will continue to deal with until there is another solution. For those suggesting that we should be like some other cities and discourage the use of cars in our central core...I think that is a very bad idea. If you make it too difficult to GET to downtown, then people will stop coming. .

Difficult to get downtown?! There are three interstates and Ellington Parkway, Franklin Rd, Charlotte, etc. Once people get off the interstate they'd don't need a grid of wide streets to take them the remaining few blocks to their destination.

People won't stop coming downtown as long as there are things there which they can't get elsewhere. You do that by making the downtown as much unlike the suburbs as possible: explorable on foot, and full of cool stuff.

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And finally to UTgrad09: I'm a UTgrad03. More importantly, in my humble opinion, we should stop focusing all our energies on visitors to Nashville (not neglecting totally, please understand) and instead focus our energies on residents of Nashville. Having said that, it's currently easy and straightforward to get downtown. There's currently lots of places to park. There's currently a free bus circulator that takes people--residents, workers, tourists, whomever--to many spots of interest downtown and in the Gulch. I don't see why this one little tiny part of downtown, with the humble businesses, parking lots, and wacky streets, must be made to accommodate tourists and suburbanites. If there are a lot of businesses there, and lots of homes there, and lots of bars and restaurants and other entertainment venues there, people will want to go there. And if it's a cool enough spot, they'll probably find a way to do it even if they can't park the car at the front door. We're not talking vast distances here.

My point is, if we keep our cities focused on cars, then people will keep using them to get around town and nothing will ever change. What's the incentive? If our cities are broken, why keep doing the same things that broke them in the first place?

Cool. I was actually class 08, but I changed majors and it added a year. I started fall 04.

I get what you're saying...and don't get me wrong, street improvements are not just about tourists and suburbanites...part of the reason I think the streets need improvement is for the future residents in the area. Improved sidewalks, plantings, removing telephone poles and other obstructions, adding streetlamps...things that will make the area more attractive not just for those driving through, but for those that have to walk the streets. On that point, correcting the street grid serves a dual purpose as well...making intersections cleaner, and making crossing them as pedestrians easier (lining up the crosswalks)...and making the geometry easier for getting from point A to point B.

My point of not forgetting that we're a car city is primarily is to say let's not create any more traffic congestion than we have to. I think smart planning can accomplish all of those needs.

One option that seems to work well is to limit 2 way traffic and go with one way streets that alternate. I actually like that better.

One way streets aren't a bad idea, especially in a downtown area like ours, where most of the streets are already narrow (2-3 lanes). Personally, I like them (when they are laid out right)...but I hear complaints from people all the time (not just about our one ways). I think it's frustrating for people that have a bad sense of direction or can't read maps. :P

Difficult to get downtown?! There are three interstates and Ellington Parkway, Franklin Rd, Charlotte, etc. Once people get off the interstate they'd don't need a grid of wide streets to take them the remaining few blocks to their destination.

People won't stop coming downtown as long as there are things there which they can't get elsewhere. You do that by making the downtown as much unlike the suburbs as possible: explorable on foot, and full of cool stuff.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting widening the streets any more than they already are. In fact, I'd like to see lower broad have less street and more sidewalk, and trees (like 2nd). KVB should be plenty as a new wide street downtown. I just think things should be done to help ease current congestion downtown (especially during events). Fixing the grid (thereby making fewer intersections) and synchronizing traffic lights are two ways to accomplish this. I also think adding left-hand exits/on ramps (at least for Demonbreun) would be a good idea for the I-65/40 traffic, because of the quick merge at the south side of the loop (it would also make it safer).

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Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting widening the streets any more than they already are. In fact, I'd like to see lower broad have less street and more sidewalk, and trees (like 2nd). KVB should be plenty as a new wide street downtown. I just think things should be done to help ease current congestion downtown (especially during events). Fixing the grid (thereby making fewer intersections) and synchronizing traffic lights are two ways to accomplish this. I also think adding left-hand exits/on ramps (at least for Demonbreun) would be a good idea for the I-65/40 traffic, because of the quick merge at the south side of the loop (it would also make it safer).

The East-West BRT proposal includes extensive streetscape improvements that would accomplish a lot of the things that you describe for Lower Broad. Specifically, two traffic lanes will be dedicated to the BRT rather than cars, but the the plan also calls for adding trees and other streetscape improvements. Finally, since many of the stops will be mid-block, there will likely be more traffic signals on Lower Broad, although they will be synchronized better. On a related note, the current version of the plans call for eliminating two lanes of traffic on Third Ave North from Broadway to the bus station, so from a vehicular perspective that street would effectively become a one-lane, one-way street that primarily serves as access to the existing parking parking garages. In exchange, it is presumable that some badly needed streetscape improvements would come to Third Ave North along with the BRT implementation.

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I doubt that the final incarnation will go beyond 7th or maybe 5th before it turns up a block to Commerce. Since there are no stops after 5th on Broadway, the change would alleviate the issues that come into play when the arena lets out or other large events happen in the area. This happens over 50 times a year currently. It also places a stop closer to the majority of office workers in that area.

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What do you guys think about aligning and straightening the Lea and Peabody for traffic flow, but keeping the funky, little cross-section of Lea Avenue running southeast from Lafayette? We can completely block off this section of Lea and make it a pedestrian "high street" with decorative bollards, crosswalks, benches, sidewalk cafes and planters. It can be lined with 2-4 buildings with street-level retail. Perhaps we can place a cute, little pocket park at the cross-section near Lafayette and 6th Avenue.

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What do you guys think about aligning and straightening the Lea and Peabody for traffic flow, but keeping the funky, little cross-section of Lea Avenue running southeast from Lafayette? We can completely block off this section of Lea and make it a pedestrian "high street" with decorative bollards, crosswalks, benches, sidewalk cafes and planters. It can be lined with 2-4 buildings with street-level retail. Perhaps we can place a cute, little pocket park at the cross-section near Lafayette and 6th Avenue.

Room for some cute little homeless people from the mission to deficate in the cute little pocket park. I know where your coming from and would love to see it however as long as the mission is so close, it would be a hang out and ruin it for all but them. Not being hard on you and dont take it personal but I just dont think it could work until someone decides to buy the mission property and they move from that location. From what I have heard, the mission property is now worth between 15 and 20 million dollars.

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We need to quit being afraid of the Mission and get on with development. Homelessness happens in every city in the world. Jack White doesn't seem to mind. He could have put his label headquarters anywhere in the World and he chose right across the street. The sooner we acknowledge, set up and enforce fair rules and stop the NIMBY complaining the faster we will improve the area.

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Room for some cute little homeless people from the mission to deficate in the cute little pocket park. I know where your coming from and would love to see it however as long as the mission is so close, it would be a hang out and ruin it for all but them. Not being hard on you and dont take it personal but I just dont think it could work until someone decides to buy the mission property and they move from that location. From what I have heard, the mission property is now worth between 15 and 20 million dollars.

We need to quit being afraid of the Mission and get on with development. Homelessness happens in every city in the world. Jack White doesn't seem to mind. He could have put his label headquarters anywhere in the World and he chose right across the street. The sooner we acknowledge, set up and enforce fair rules and stop the NIMBY complaining the faster we will improve the area.

I see this argument from both sides. Yes, any park that is placed near a homeless shelter will begin to be filled with the homeless and all that tends to come with the homeless. Relocating the Mission might make the situation in SoBro better, but overall that problem will just be transformed elsewhere. The key to controlling it with the pocket park will be to have another shelter or program or facilities to alleviate some of the Missions' homeless.

The idea of a pocket park or any other business near the Mission is a prime opportunity for someone to step up and do something good for the community. Perhaps Jack White realized that, or maybe he just found the right property for the right price and coincidentally it was across the street from the Mission.

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i have heard very little from anyone in the gulch complaining about Room at the Inn. Maybe I am just missing it but they seem to coexist without issue. The Mission is at the very edge of Sobro and quite frankly I would feel safer in that area than in most of the housing projects. It all boils down to community involvement. We have been very successful in the Core with cleaning up some of the issues we have with Church Street Park. NMPD has been very responsive and helpful in keeping order in that area. The library creates even more issues than the Mission in that there are no rules for utilizing the facility. It is open to the public and you can't discriminate about who you let in and who you don't. Computers and rest rooms are free and accessible for all.

The vast majority of homeless are not alcohol, drug, and mentally unstable people. Its just that those are the ones we all associate with the issue.

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Given the fact that you too could be homeless, given the right confluence of unfortunate events in your life, I'd suggest that if you have any ounce of moral fiber in your body, you should treat them like fellow human beings. Sure, the occasional panhandler can be a mild irritant, but that's certainly no reason to treat everyone who doesn't have a roof over their heads as though they were animals. Very few people who are homeless got that way by simply being a lazy drunk.

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Room for some cute little homeless people from the mission to deficate in the cute little pocket park. I know where your coming from and would love to see it however as long as the mission is so close, it would be a hang out and ruin it for all but them. Not being hard on you and dont take it personal but I just dont think it could work until someone decides to buy the mission property and they move from that location. From what I have heard, the mission property is now worth between 15 and 20 million dollars.

No offense taken at all. I'm just a dreamer and think we haven't even scratched the surface of the possibilities for SOBRO. There's no way we would be ready for something like I was mentioning for some time aside from perhaps realigning streets. I do understand that a park or pedestrian street in that area right now would probably scare many Nashvillians to death, but the Gulch was a rather seedy area a decade ago as well. As SOBRO grows, I am sure we can figure out a way to clean up the area and make it more inviting and livable for everyone including the homeless so long as they are not bothering people.

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The only way the problems that stem from the Mission will be mainly minimized is if the entirety of SoBro is radically reinvented. That can happen, but it will require at least 10 to 15 years. I also wish it were located elsewhere but the reality is the facility will remain in SoBro. We all need to be as understanding as possible toward the homeless. Many (as some of you have noted in this thread) are decent, honorable people who have suffered horrendous circumstances.

Producer 2 mentioned Third Man. I've got to say Jack White's presence in this city has been tremendous. When I travel and chat with folks in other cities — or even when I talk to visitors to Nashville or the the locals — White earns major props. You don't have to enjoy his music (which I greatly do) to acknowledge what a positive impact he has had on Nashville. I was fortunate enough to see Conan O'Brien perform at TMRecords and when White hit the stage with Conan at the end of the show, I was beaming with pride for our city. Very humbling.

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