Where does the south end/begin?

[socaguy]

Lexington proper is a fairly progressive community from what I've heard - but Northern Kentucky is very hick. I've made plenty stops on the Interstate and have seen it. Looks identical to my area in Tennessee. Hick, uneducated, crappy.

Yes but that can be anywhere in the USA....Ive met more hicks from Ohio and Michigan than anywhere!!

[Godzgud]

Spartan's map is fairly accurate. The South as we know it is changing rapidly. In my 49 years, I have lived in Norfolk and Richmond. Norfolk had the most syrupy southern coastal drawl that you have ever heard up until about 25 years ago. Richmond had a much more refined but a strong southern accent also. The rest of the Commonweath, (no offense intended) sounded like North Carolina. When I was a young child in Richmond (1960), there was no one revered more than Robert E. Lee and Stonewall (with the exception of Jesus). But alas, over the past 25 years or so, a large influx of Northerners have moved into the state. They have control of Northern Virginia, have a large presence in Tidewater (Hampton Roads it is called by the transplants) and have even moved into Richmond. But thankfully the mountains, Southside and our rural areas are still solidly Southern. What has happend in Virginia , happened first in South Florida, and large cities such as Atlanta and Houston. Even In North Carolina, there is alot of communities (Chapel Hill, Cary) that have become increasingly non-Southern. In my humble opinion, (and I hope I'm wrong) what we consider Southern will cease to exist in the next 50 years, maybe less. The accent is going fast as we become homoginized. Hopefully we will retain the manners and independence that has set out region apart since the country was settled and founded.

[JDC]

I got a solution for you and you can take it or leave it: The south begins where the restaurants have grits on the menu and the waitresses ask, "Are y'all ready to order?".

[EastSideResider]

I got a solution for you and you can take it or leave it: The south begins where the restaurants have grits on the menu and the waitresses ask, "Are y'all ready to order?".

haha, pretty much.....

I'm sure this has happened to ya'll as well, but when I was in Ohio, I asked for sweet tea and the lady looked at me like I was speaking Spanish.... She offered me rasberry lemon tea...

^^that is another sign....

[FLAplaya]

Southern States to me are

Florida*

Alabama

Mississippi

Louisiana

Arkansas

Tennessee

Kentucky

West Virginia

Virginia

Maryland*

Delaware*

North Carolina

South Carolina

Georgia

Why, because they GEOGRAPHICALY MAKE UP THE SOUTHEASTERN US.

Just because DC doesn't have a high # of people speaking with a "southern draw" does not take its past history OR LOCATION away. That's like saying New York is no longer part of the north because they serve grits and sweet iced tea.........

Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Arizona are Southwestern states for the same exact reason....

[Spades]

Yes but the question asks about southern states not southeastern states and if you are going to count maryland, you better had count Texas. The Eastern and Central part of the state has alot in common with Louisiana. In fact, the term southwest is slowly dying and southcentral is taking its place. Those states would be Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Arkansas.

[FLAplaya]

well not to get too technical with it but generally when people think of the SOUTH it is the grits, sweet tea, civil rights, twangy speech, old plantation homes, confederate flags (yeah i know about Texas) cotton, a WHOLE lot of negativity, southern bells, country, humidity, etc. and the 14 states in the Southeastern US is what is the epitome of it all...its the culture that has shaped these 14 states in its past that is what gives us SOUTHERN CULTURE today.

All I'm saying is that just because Maryland and Delaware and South Florida are not culturaly as "southern" to Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi, as tey once were, does not change the fact that they are and always will be southern. The location is the only reason why.

As for Texas, it has Houston and Dallas, as well as, its eastern half that may have a southern cultural aspect but look at where this state has more in common with and if you look, it is moreso old western in history just like Oklahoma, New mexico and Arizona. I just don't buy the South Central thing at all. Again, a transplant does not all of a sudden change a states LOCATION.

Its all about location location location

[EbonyGardens]

The only thing I don't like about the South is the negativity from back in the 40-60s. Other than that, it's all good down here. Ft. Worth is also more old-western in history, considering the city's Cow Town nickname.

[EastSideResider]

Those states would be Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Arkansas.

Really? I would've thought Louisiana would be considered southern instead of southcentral. It has too much in common with Georgia, Bama, Miss, S. Carolina, N. Carolina, & Tenn......

I think Louisiana is 100% southern.....

[MR-2]

I got a solution for you and you can take it or leave it: The south begins where the restaurants have grits on the menu and the waitresses ask, "Are y'all ready to order?".

Ah, but Raleigh is still in the south, which makes that a fascinating conundrum. I'd swear I've gone months without hearing a southern accent here. We do have grits though, in every possible combination.

[Spades]

Really? I would've thought Louisiana would be considered southern instead of southcentral. It has too much in common with Georgia, Bama, Miss, S. Carolina, N. Carolina, & Tenn......

I think Louisiana is 100% southern.....

Ask the natives, Sean and LouisianaCharm on these boards and they will tell you that Louisiana is in teh same region as Texas. Thats what they were taught in schools and what they know.

All I'm saying is that just because Maryland and Delaware and South Florida are not culturaly as "southern" to Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi, as tey once were, does not change the fact that they are and always will be southern. The location is the only reason why.

The same argument can be said for Texas. The majority of the state is southern. The majority of where people live is in the eastern and central part of the state. Location does not tell me that the majority of Texas has anything to do with the west.

As for Texas, it has Houston and Dallas, as well as, its eastern half that may have a southern cultural aspect but look at where this state has more in common with and if you look, it is moreso old western in history just like Oklahoma, New mexico and Arizona. I just don't buy the South Central thing at all. Again, a transplant does not all of a sudden change a states LOCATION.

Texas, outside of El Paso and maybe(big maybe) the panhandle has VERY little in common with New Mexico and Arizona and what are you talking about with the transplant thing. I'm from Texas. The state is in the south central part of the United States. Has been noted that way. The term southwest is slowly(very slowly) dying and being replaced with south central.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_United_States

oh and Flaplaya. In your first part of your post, you described Texas in a nutshell. The only thing that you can question Texas(especially west Texas) about is the same reason people question south florida. The hispanic influence.

[FLAplaya]

well we can just agree to disagree. but I honestly feel that Texas is Western in nature....and like i said before, I just don't buy the Southcentral theme, especially with regards to Louisiana and Arkansas.

[mjcatl2]

Just because DC doesn't have a high # of people speaking with a "southern draw" does not take its past history OR LOCATION away. That's like saying New York is no longer part of the north because they serve grits and sweet iced tea.........

You can talk about location all you want, but DC ain't a southern city. Not culturally, or by any other method. In any ranking of Northeastern cities you will find DC. Sure, Virginia, a Southern state borders the Distirct, but so the hell what? Hell, anything south of Boston was the South at some point in our history. realistically today, the South transitions into the North towards Northern Virginia.

[NovaWolverine]

You can talk about location all you want, but DC ain't a southern city. Not culturally, or by any other method. In any ranking of Northeastern cities you will find DC. Sure, Virginia, a Southern state borders the Distirct, but so the hell what? Hell, anything south of Boston was the South at some point in our history. realistically today, the South transitions into the North towards Northern Virginia.

I agree, if you(fl guy) can put an asterisk next to florida, you should put two next to DC, DC is much much much less southern than florida south of J'ville or wherever florida becomes less southern. Northern VA is pretty much the same way. Look up mid-atlantic on google images and 9/10 you will see DC and N. VA on there that's why the mid-atlantic even exists, is for delaware, maryland, dc, northern va. Location is MORE of a reason not to include DC as southern, look at where it is, if you were to draw a distinct line across the lower half of the country and upper half, DC would be in the upper, the whole reason states like MD, DE, and regions like DC and N. VA are even considered south these days are b/c of the civil war and culture from 100 or so yrs ago not pure geography.

[Spades]

well we can just agree to disagree. but I honestly feel that Texas is Western in nature....and like i said before, I just don't buy the Southcentral theme, especially with regards to Louisiana and Arkansas.

Texas is Texas in nature. It has southern, western,midwestern, and mexican influence. But the majority of the states culture is very much so southern and mexican. Also, Louisiana and Arkansas have alot of common with East and Central Texas. You wouldn't know the difference unless you seen a sign that says you are entering one of the states. Google southcentral and you will see how they group the four states together. take a trip, you will see what im talking about.

You can say that Texas is not Old South like Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi. But it is pretty southern nonetheless

You can talk about location all you want, but DC ain't a southern city. Not culturally, or by any other method. In any ranking of Northeastern cities you will find DC. Sure, Virginia, a Southern state borders the Distirct, but so the hell what? Hell, anything south of Boston was the South at some point in our history. realistically today, the South transitions into the North towards Northern Virginia.

True. Northern Virginia is not southern at all. You can kind of say the same thing regarding transition for Texas. The south transitions into another place the closer you get to San Antonio. However, when you get there. Doesn't mean you're in the west.

[Cadeho]

I had NO idea regions were so popular for debate!

Personally, the traditional South decided by history are the CSA states. However, although a lot of people think of VA as the SOUTH, I don't think of it too much like the south. When I picture the south I picture In the Heat of the Night. Of course regions do overlap and there could be big cultural differences within a state. Geographically, I'd draw the south from NC and TN southward, and as far west as AR and LA. While TX was part of the old south, I tend to think of it as southwestern along with AZ and NM. Some maps include WV and KY as midwestern states. Some maps include WV as part of the northeast. Some maps include KY with the south. I tend to call them all of the above. The midwest to me mainly is between the Mississppi and Ohio rivers northward with OH being the farthest east. The states bordering west of the Mississppi can also overlap as midwestern or plains states which is basically the center of the country. Then there's the mountains in the west. West of the mountains is the west coast or Pacific. VA with WV, MD, DE, PA, and NJ can be the mid-Atlantic or northeast. New England is what's left to the north east if we divide it that way separating them from the mid-Atlantic. The southeastI tend to group NC, SC, and GA together. The Gulf is obvious. There are too many regions in this country and this paragraph could have been broken up but I'm sleepy so I'll go now. Too tired to see if I missed any beside AK and HI which are on their own to me.

[urbanvb]

Ah, but Raleigh is still in the south, which makes that a fascinating conundrum. I'd swear I've gone months without hearing a southern accent here. We do have grits though, in every possible combination.

Like one of the other posters alluded to, the more foreigners move in the less 'southern' if you will an area will be. Charlotte and Raleigh are on their way to becoming (if not already) more unlike the rest of the state in that regard. I would think the same would be true of other metro areas in the south as well.

You can talk about location all you want, but DC ain't a southern city. Not culturally, or by any other method. In any ranking of Northeastern cities you will find DC. Sure, Virginia, a Southern state borders the Distirct, but so the hell what? Hell, anything south of Boston was the South at some point in our history. realistically today, the South transitions into the North towards Northern Virginia.

I agree. I tried to get sweet tea up in Nova and couldn't find any! One waitress said she thinks the sweet tea stops at about Woodbridge.

[urbanvb]

Being born and raised in NC and having now lived in VA over ten years, I see there are a lot of differences between the two states. NC is much more of a southern state than VA in culture and speech. I have yet to find any NC style barbeque here in VA and that is a most popular food for lots of Carolineans.

[EastSideResider]

Like one of the other posters alluded to, the more foreigners move in the less 'southern' if you will an area will be. Charlotte and Raleigh are on their way to becoming (if not already) more unlike the rest of the state in that regard. I would think the same would be true of other metro areas in the south as well.

I can see Raleigh but not yet Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, Houston, Jacksonville, etc.

Every large metro area is on its way thoug....

[FLAplaya]

I agree, if you(fl guy) can put an asterisk next to florida, you should put two next to DC, DC is much much much less southern than florida south of J'ville or wherever florida becomes less southern. Northern VA is pretty much the same way. Look up mid-atlantic on google images and 9/10 you will see DC and N. VA on there that's why the mid-atlantic even exists, is for delaware, maryland, dc, northern va. Location is MORE of a reason not to include DC as southern, look at where it is, if you were to draw a distinct line across the lower half of the country and upper half, DC would be in the upper, the whole reason states like MD, DE, and regions like DC and N. VA are even considered south these days are b/c of the civil war and culture from 100 or so yrs ago not pure geography.

well..I put the * next to 3 states because they are the most "blurred" in "southern culture"....Dont be on the defensive because Virginia didn't get one...oops my bad My whole point IS the pure geography...and why is everyone (it seems) so ashamed of being southern anyways or being branded as so if your from Virginia or DC....the past is the past...get over it. Hell when I went to Maryland, a lot of people told me they were in the South but Northern VA peeps would deny the very thought of it....

[NovaWolverine]

well..I put the * next to 3 states because they are the most "blurred" in "southern culture"....Dont be on the defensive because Virginia didn't get one...oops my bad My whole point IS the pure geography...and why is everyone (it seems) so ashamed of being southern anyways or being branded as so if your from Virginia or DC....the past is the past...get over it. Hell when I went to Maryland, a lot of people told me they were in the South but Northern VA peeps would deny the very thought of it....

Dude, I'm not offended, I acknowledge that Virginia is a southern state, I've never once said otherwise. But it depends on what convention you're using when you construct the line. If in fact you are using PURE geography, the middle of the east side of the country is somewhere in VA. If in fact you're using PURE geography, than Florida wouldn't have an asterisk next to it. I don't know what part of MD you went to, and what is "a lot", but I'd be hard pressed to find someone in the DC metro part of MD who considers themself a southerner before a mid-atlantic or east-coast resident. But you also talk about "culture", which I why I was just confused as to what convention you're using. My main point is that the by pure geography, the civil war's boundaries are wrong, when you get into culture it's more grey, I'm just sayng that Florida outside of Miami and parts of the eastern coast not being southern is just as much if not less than northern va not being so called southern. I'm not offended by the asterisk, all I did was mention it, not try to correct you in a rude way.

I'm not resentful of the south, I'm not originally from DC, but I like the area, I think as much as the SE has going for it, it's good to not get carried away with all the bickering about not getting respect and all of that I've seen from ppl of other regions. However part of the reason that you witnessed northern va people maybe saying that is, b/c, w/ the civil war and politics, it made a black and white line so people in md are more closely stereotyped than a person from the northern part of va. If it were in the public more like FL. this wouldn't be the case.

[NovaWolverine]

Even geographically speaking, flaguy, md and del are probably less southern than texas and for sure arkansas, yet you consider their location as a primary reason as to why they're not in the "south". Even though you claim to factor in geography, seems like you have a more traditional view of what constitutes as the south.

[vdogg]

I don't think it's being ashamed of anything, it's just recognizing the current state of affairs as they exist culturally. Many places in VA do not necessarily have an overwhelming southern feel because of, as alluded to before, the large number of transplants combined with (at least in HR) a large transient population. I'm originally from Michigan so when I say I could care less about what they call it, I really mean it. About the only thing that truly slapped me in the face as different when I first moved down here is I had to learn to say soda instead of pop (and that habit died hard too. ).

[Cadeho]

Speaking of transplants, everyone in Richmond's from New York now! So... yep, there you have it.

[urbanvb]

Well, the demographics are changing a lot esp in the fast growing southern cities. I placed a poll in the NC forum and it shows over 20% of the users are from the northeast. If that is any indication the southern cities as we know them are quickly changing.