Where does the south end/begin?

[EastSideResider]

I think there is a distinct difference between the "deep south" and the "upland south," if you would like to refer to it as such. To me, the deep south consists only of Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana, S. Carolina, Tennessee, and maybe parts of eastern Texas. Kentucky, Virginia, W. Virginia, N. Carolina, and the southern portions of IL, IN, OH, MO, and OK definitely exhibit a hybrid of midwestern and southern culture. Kentucky is probably more tied to the midwest than its other southern neighbors, primarily because of the tie it has to the Ohio river and the industrial river cities of the north. But still, I think you'll feel a definite difference between Louisville and Cincinnati, even though they have a lot in common. Louisville is unquestionably more southern.

^^I agree, but I can't see how Arkansas is deep south and N. Carolina and Virginia are upland south? I think it should be Arkansas in the upland and NC and VA in the deep south.

I was just surprised to see that you think NC and VA should be in the same category as IL, IN, OH, MO, and OK!!!! They are more of the deep south than eastern Texas for sure. [And equal to the others.... ]

[castneria]

I think the south is a little more porous than these fine lines.

There are places that are more "Southern" than others...Virginia Beach or Ocrecoke I would say have more in common with Ocean City Md, than with Myrtle Beach.

Enclosed is my modified map:

[MZT]

To me the initial question in this thread is "How far north and west can you make a plausible case for southern cultural influence?" That's what the last map indicates.

I suppose you could turn it around, and ask "When are you in the deep south". IMHO, Kentucky/ North Carolina / Viginia are not quite deep south states, culturally. Texas isn't either-- because it has it's own history and identity that's apart from the Federal claim of the USA in 1787.

------

EDIT: Ha ha... Castnia went to the trouble of excluding RTP from the "deep south" Makes sense, it did send some delegates for Dennis Kucinich in Y2004 to the Dem convention

[Hybrid0NE]

I think the south is a little more porous than these fine lines.

There are places that are more "Southern" than others...Virginia Beach or Ocrecoke I would say have more in common with Ocean City Md, than with Myrtle Beach.

Enclosed is my modified map:

I agree with your "Deep South" graphic, especially the cut-outs of Atlanta and Charlotte. I completely feel that these cities are Southern (located) but not of the South.

[castneria]

I agree with your "Deep South" graphic, especially the cut-outs of Atlanta and Charlotte. I completely feel that these cities are Southern (located) but not of the South.

Yes, I think Charlotte is a large enough metropolis that it stands outside of the deep south at least. But its still in "the south"

I also included the Raleigh/Durham area as a border area enclave within the south as the area contains a large number of northern transplants as well as a large scientific research base uncommon in the surrounding areas of NC...Same reason why I dont think Metro Atlanta is in the Deep south, and New Orleans for that matter. The Appalations are almost a distinct group, which is why that is excluded from the deep south, but remains within the general south.

Also to note, inland central florida is not completely southern, and is not completely outside of the south. There is much farmland in inland areas to the east of Tampa bay that is very culturally southern. I view metro Tampa and Miami as completely apart from the south.

Also not mentioned previously, the northernmost terminous of the border area does not necessarily follow the mason dixon line. Yes, there are stars and bars in Gettysburg...also parts of South Jersey (Salem/Cumberland) that have little to do with greater philly, and have a distinct culture which might have a bit in common with central delaware, which is considered border area.

[EastSideResider]

I agree with your "Deep South" graphic, especially the cut-outs of Atlanta and Charlotte. I completely feel that these cities are Southern (located) but not of the South.

It looks like all this map is doing is excluding all big southern cities because people think that a culturally southern city can't be big and developed.

Exlcluded:

Atlanta

Charlotte

Dallas

Houston

New Orleans

Raleigh

Memphis

Little Rock

Jacksonville

Nashville.....

(The ONLY big cities in the south)

^^To me, this perception is completely wrong! It basically saying that to be deep south, it has to be rural.

[EastSideResider]

All of these large cities are deep south. (I can sort of see Raleigh and San Antonio though)

[illliterate02]

Orlando and Miami really have no southern culture... Heck more than half of the residents of Miami were not even born in this country... it is the only city in the world with statistics like that. As for Orlando there is over 30% Hispanic population mainly from Puerto Rico but also from South America and Carribean. On top of that many people that came to Orlando in the 60's- present (excluding Hispanics) were from California or North Eastern States... like my family which came from Penn. There is more of a Latino feel in these cities than anything. Sure there are some rednecks in the far flung towns grippin thier Confederate Flags and crying dixie but this is really a minor group of people... not even noticable in the statistics. But I would call central Florida south, the North Carribean if you wish to ascribe a title to it. Jacksonville is definantly the south though... And Charlotte is the South... I have friends there... and it is crazy south. Not really a bad thing, just the overall culture of the city.

Peace

[castneria]

These are the cities I consider Deep South:

Greenville/Spartanburg

Montgomery

Mobile

Augusta

Birmingham

Valdosta

Columbia

Chattanooga

Panama City

Pensacola

Houston

These are cities I consider southern, but not deep south:

Atlanta

Nashville

Charlotte

New Orleans

Talahassee

Dallas/Ft Worth

Asheville

Jacksonville

Savannah

Charleston

Wilmington

Roanoke

Lexington

Little Rock

Memphis

These are cities that I consider marginally southern..A hybrid:

Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Hampton

Baltimore (yes but not DC strangely)

Richmond

Raleigh

Charleston WV

Cincinatti

Louisville

Oklahoma City

Southern DC suburbs

I think what makes something deep south is that it is more inward looking and less connected with the rest of the world, hense "deep". If you fly into atlanta, you dont feel like you are in the deep south, but you are aware you are in a southern city. But if you travel a few miles in any direction, you know you are in the deep.

[jdavidf]

There's no way Oklahoma should ever be considered Midwest. It is Southwestern, but since there is no Southwest region here, I'd put it in the South.

Missouri is the true chameleon state. Northern MO may as well be Iowa, Eastern MO may as well be Illinois, western MO may as well be Kansas and southern MO...well, it may as well be Arkansas. I guess you could say the same for a lot of states though. Southern Illinois outside of the St. Louis MetroEast is extremely southern feeling.

I was raised in Southern IL (the Cairo area - really southern).. and we always considered ourselves southerners. Go across the river to Cape Girardeau MO and you begin to notice a difference - they tend to identify more with St Louis and St Louis was always thought to be much more Northern industrial to us..

Living in Nashville, I think of it as the South, even deep south -- and the feeling here isn't that much different from being in Southern IL..

[EastSideResider]

Orlando and Miami really have no southern culture... Heck more than half of the residents of Miami were not even born in this country... it is the only city in the world with statistics like that. As for Orlando there is over 30% Hispanic population mainly from Puerto Rico but also from South America and Carribean. On top of that many people that came to Orlando in the 60's- present (excluding Hispanics) were from California or North Eastern States... like my family which came from Penn. There is more of a Latino feel in these cities than anything. Sure there are some rednecks in the far flung towns grippin thier Confederate Flags and crying dixie but this is really a minor group of people... not even noticable in the statistics. But I would call central Florida south, the North Carribean if you wish to ascribe a title to it. Jacksonville is definantly the south though... And Charlotte is the South... I have friends there... and it is crazy south. Not really a bad thing, just the overall culture of the city.

Peace

^^Not to be picky, (well I guess I am), but it's about 18% Hispanic.... But I agree that it isn't [deep] southern.... I do think that it has southern characteristics though.....

[EastSideResider]

I think what makes something deep south is that it is more inward looking and less connected with the rest of the world, hense "deep". If you fly into atlanta, you dont feel like you are in the deep south, but you are aware you are in a southern city. But if you travel a few miles in any direction, you know you are in the deep.

^^I see where you're coming from. If you go a couple miles outside all of the large cities in the south, then you will feel "deep south". Strange to see you considered Houston deep south?? Thoughts behind that? I thought of Houston as one of the not as southern cities in the south.

[illliterate02]

^^Not to be picky, (well I guess I am), but it's about 18% Hispanic.... But I agree that it isn't [deep] southern.... I do think that it has southern characteristics though.....

The city limit has 18% but the metro has 31% almost... And where i live in Kissimee (South of Orlando about 20 miles it is more than half... The city limits of Orlando give a decieving picture of the real make up of the city. Because the old Mayor tried to annex only good neighborhoods which left a lot of poor neighborhoods (i.e. blacks and hispanics) from being part of the city even though they are only like 3 miles from downtown but the airport which is like 10 is part of the city limits...

[Louisvilleslugger]

I agree with your "Deep South" graphic, especially the cut-outs of Atlanta and Charlotte. I completely feel that these cities are Southern (located) but not of the South.

I think that Louisville should be wherever Nashville is. Both are large Southern cities and are going to have a diverse population, like most large cities. Some people think that because Louisville has a little a density or had an industrial feel that it isn't as Southern as other Southern cities. But other Southern cities like Memphis and New Orleans are signifigantly denser than Louisville and had an Industry based economy (Due to these cities being major shipping ports), And all of these cities have a Southern cultural bond. But while it isn't as Southern as cities like New Orleans and Memphis the Prodominant Southern culture in Louisville is too obvious for it to be grouped elsewhere (like the midwest).

While Louisville does have northern traits like having a sizable Catholic population the vast majority of Louisville's population is Southern Baptist. (Kentucky has the 3rd largest Southern Baptist population in the Nation). Louisville is also home to one of the South's proudest moments THE KENTUCKY DERBY.

On the other hand you'll have a much better argument to say that Cincinnati is a boarder city, Since it has a large portion of it's metro in rural Northern Kentucky, and that Southern cutlture kind of mixes in with the Urban feel of Cincinnati.

So to some it up the Southern line should be moved up to include Louisville.

[bobliocatt]

I believe Jax may actually be a more diverse city than Orlando. A majority of the population comes from the Navy, the region's largest employer by far, which brings in people from all across the country.

Nevertheless, metro Orlando is southern at the core, although its becoming a popular spot for hispanics and midwestern born young professionals. Take a ride through Parramore, Washington Shores, Winter Garden, Ocoee, Apopka or Sanford and you'll see this.

[illliterate02]

I believe Jax may actually be a more diverse city than Orlando. A majority of the population comes from the Navy, the region's largest employer by far, which brings in people from all across the country.

Nevertheless, metro Orlando is southern at the core, although its becoming a popular spot for hispanics and midwestern born young professionals. Take a ride through Parramore, Washington Shores, Winter Garden, Ocoee, Apopka or Sanford and you'll see this.

I actually read an article that said Orlando was the second most diverse city in Florida behind Miami obviously. Orlando has a large population of Asians (for not being in Cali or NY) and a large population of foriegners period, something that Jacksonville cannot compete with. I know about the Navy population also, because I was in the Navy up until 3 months ago. And I dont think that Jacksonville bases really would put much of dent into the overall popluation there, I think that it would increase the amount of Asians there because there are a lot of Philipinos in the Navy though.

Like I said I have lived in Orlando my whole life, except when I lived in Tokyo during my Naval career, and I would say that only the furthest flung suburbs could be considered "Southern." Hell, Kissimmee was southern when I left, now it is like a third world hispanic country...

[jmanhsv]

These are the cities I consider Deep South:

Greenville/Spartanburg

Montgomery

Mobile

Augusta

Birmingham

Valdosta

Columbia

Chattanooga

Panama City

Pensacola

Houston

These are cities I consider southern, but not deep south:

Atlanta

Nashville

Charlotte

New Orleans

Talahassee

Dallas/Ft Worth

Asheville

Jacksonville

Savannah

Charleston

Wilmington

Roanoke

Lexington

Little Rock

Memphis

These are cities that I consider marginally southern..A hybrid:

Virginia Beach/Norfolk/Hampton

Baltimore (yes but not DC strangely)

Richmond

Raleigh

Charleston WV

Cincinatti

Louisville

Oklahoma City

Southern DC suburbs

So you're saying Huntsville's not Southern at all? Or do you not know we're here? Anyways, I think the south is AL, MS, TN, KY, NC, SC, SoVa, LA, AR, TX east of 45, Northern FL, GA outside Atl.

[bobliocatt]

I actually read an article that said Orlando was the second most diverse city in Florida behind Miami obviously. Orlando has a large population of Asians (for not being in Cali or NY) and a large population of foriegners period, something that Jacksonville cannot compete with. I know about the Navy population also, because I was in the Navy up until 3 months ago. And I dont think that Jacksonville bases really would put much of dent into the overall popluation there, I think that it would increase the amount of Asians there because there are a lot of Philipinos in the Navy though.

Like I said I have lived in Orlando my whole life, except when I lived in Tokyo during my Naval career, and I would say that only the furthest flung suburbs could be considered "Southern." Hell, Kissimmee was southern when I left, now it is like a third world hispanic country...

I grew up, just outside of Orlando and just relocated to Jax, about two years ago, so I know what you mean. Anyway here's a quote from the article I was thinking about, when I said Jax as possibly being just as diverse as Orlando.

Among the potluck of languages the U.S. Census Bureau says can be found in metropolitan Jacksonville are Tagalog, Arabic and Serbocroatian -- 72 different tongues in all.

Only Broward and Miami-Dade counties, with 84 and 79 languages, respectively, have more spoken diversity in Florida, an analysis of census information shows.

The Washington-based U.S. English Foundation put Jacksonville at 38th nationwide of more than 200 metropolitan areas in the number of languages spoken at home.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor..._18201034.shtml

Nevertheless, this means little because I still believe there's a such thing as diverse Southern communities and if Miami is one, then Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville really are ones.

[upstate29650]

This is the South:

I fully agree!

[upstate29650]

Anybody who think s that Virginia and West Virginia are in the South is Crazy! Its friggin cold in those states. North Carolina is the fartest North the South goes.

Oh and Florida is not in the South either.

Brad

You are an idiot then. It gets cold in the mountains that YOU & I can see in GREER! It also gets cold in the NC mountains. Weather isn't a determining factor in this instance.

I do agree that FL (South of Jacksonville) isn't Southern at all.

[Spades]

lol Houston is not a deep south city. It's in that list with Dallas, Atlanta and the likes. Replace Houston with Savannah.

I was just surprised to see that you think NC and VA should be in the same category as IL, IN, OH, MO, and OK!!!! They are more of the deep south than eastern Texas for sure. [And equal to the others.... ]

How?

[LJinPA]

This has nothing to do with Germans but I post this but to show a pattern of Settlement...

[LJinPA]

The top is percent Scotch-Irish Ancestry 2000, On bottom is Percent Black or African-American alone 2000.

You can map just about anything these days if your a visual spatial person. Notice even in New Hampshire there's Scotch-Irish settlement, the only red state in the NE and "Live free or Die" on the liscense plates. Unfortunately elsewhere in New England I suspect people may have confused Scotch-Irish with Scottish and Irish in areas where both Irish Catholics and Scottish Highlanders settled...

These maps are easy to make, but they show where the 2 South's meet and where they overlap. The South of "Gone w The Wind" vs the South of Nascar, Country Music, Rugged Individualism...

One can also do a websearch on either:

"How the Scotch-Irish shaped America"

or

"Albion's Seed, the 4 British Folkways that Shaped America" I think thats the title... and read the book reviews... On the Southern forum I posted a map of the "bible belt" on the thread on southern identity...

[roadtripper]

Here's my opinion:

Dixie: Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana (except New Orleans), Florida (north of Ocala), Texas (east of Ft. Worth, north of I-10), Oklahoma (SE quadrant only),Kentucky (southern part, Ashland southward), Virginia (south of Fredericksburg is Dixie) (Hampton Roads has almost slipped into hybrid category), West Virginia (Charleston area, southward)

Hybrid (some southern characteristics): Florida (Ocala+ area around Okeechobee), West Texas (north of I-10), rest of Oklahoma, southern Missouri (up to Springfield), northern Kentucky, southern portions of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois (below US-50), northern West Virginia (up to Morgantown), western Maryland (west of Frederick), NW tip of Virginia (Winchester area), Maryland's eastern shore (Salisbury), extrme southern Delaware

-PA northward is pure north, Kansas is pure mid-west

[EbonyGardens]

Spartan's map is right on point.