My feelings....

[BrandonTO416]

I could piss on the floor in a restaurant and say "I'm doing it for the troops." I could drive to work and fill my gas tank up and say "I did it for the troops." All this is getting a little silly.

Its not George W. Bush's failure. Its the soldiers individual choice to sign up - and he or she is the failure if he or she feels like they don't belong there. If someone is willing to die for this cause - so be it.

Its the 47% of the population's fault that actually DID vote for the man.

I've also recently decided I'm not voting for John Kerry. He's a gasbag just like George W. Bush.

If you want the truth about John Kerry, here it is:

*John Kerry does not support universal healthcare. When he says he wants healthcare for all, his words are as empty as a poor African kid's tummy in Sudan. His actual plans represent nothing remotely resembling real universal care.

*John Kerry has publicly stated time and time again he wishes to put more troops into Iraq

*John Kerry supports the same old tax system, only slightly altered. Neither Bush nor Kerry care about tax simplification or progressive taxes. Obviously Kerry is a little better, but who cares when its so little change?

*John Kerry is against gay marriage - openly so. I feel he's only supportive of civil unions to get the gay vote, and we'll not see much action.

*John Kerry has absolutely no plan to change the war on drugs. We spend billions to see so little benefit. Why not legalize drugs so they can be manufactured here instead of needing to have a drug trade what-so-ever, and tax the hell out of them - then use those benefits for healthcare and education against drugs/prevention?

*John Kerry is not a liberal. I repeat. John Kerry is not a liberal. I laugh everytime I see the Republicans attack him for being liberal.

So far as Bush goes, Bush is just many, many times worse. Add on the abortion b.s., his anti-gay rhetoric and actions, wearing god on his sleeve,

It finally hit me this week after re-watching interviews, clips, and the convention coverage. It really is a Republicratic or Demopublican party.

No, I'm not a Nader supporter. I'm eagerly hoping a job in Toronto comes my way.

[Spartan]

well heckles, I'm very suprised to hear you say that. Does this mean you will vote for Bush, or just abstain from the presidential vote alltogether?

The problem with the war is that if we pull out, they won't stop attacking. You can't fault Bush for not trying, regardless of whether or not you agree with the way he is conducting things.

Politics is just a show to see who can paint the best picture of how they want things to be. Then those people who say it best get to go up there and do nothing about it.

[Dale]

heckles -

For what it's worth to you, i have more respect for the principled Naderite, or even the principled non-voter than I do for the voter who is so suffused with hatred for Bush that his only aim is to elect "not-Bush".

[BrandonTO416]

Are you insane? Me vote for Bush? Bush is far worse then Kerry ever could be. And yes, I can fault Bush for trying. He's tried to do things in the entirely WRONG way, and its obvious he MISLED us into the Iraq war. Ask yourself this: how did we end up with 150,000 troops in Iraq and 15,000 international troops in Afghanistan (of which 8,000 are American last time I checked - unless the numbers have changed) when Al Quaeda is the REAL threat? It was not Iraq or Saddam that caused the recent terror warning.

Dale, cut the crap. Of course you admire Nader - he's helping defeat Kerry. He's no more principled then any other politician, especially since he's accepting Republican money and signatures to get on the ballot in battleground states.

If he's going to get on the ballot - I'd prefer him get there on his own merits with his own supporters. I don't support Nader.

Both of you guys are voting strategically FOR BUSH this fall even though you don't apparently support all his policies, if I'm not mistaking. Am I mistaking, or is all your pro-Bush support on this forum just a devils advocate? All I can say is don't throw stones from a glass house.

[Spartan]

On my part it is not being a devils advocate, I state what I think. I support Bush because I think he is the lesser of two evils. I disagree with alot of this policies. I was intending to ask what you were going to do since you decided you werent voting for Kerry, not start a debate over Iraq.

[BrandonTO416]

Maybe I'm just overly upset for tonight itself.

[wolfdawg54]

Look, both candidates do not impress me. That's why I am doing a write-in for myself!!! I actually have no idea at this point who I am voting for.

[Spartan]

Just so long as you vote, it doesn't matter who you vote for.

[monsoon]

[Spartan]

Ah, scare tactics... nice.

A war with Iran is not necessary. They have a democratic system... sorta. The Iyatollah Khumeni controls most things. The key thing in Iran is that there is already a movement to get the guy out and have a real democracy, all we would need to do is support that, and let the Iranians do it themselves.

[monsoon]

[BrandonTO416]

I wonder what they would do if I write in "Canada" in the election ballot. LOL Would love to see the faces on the people counting votes.

[BrandonTO416]

When I get permenant resident status in Canada, it won't matter. Besides, after I'm gone I hope they bring back the draft. It will teach the younger generation a lesson to get out and vote against Bush for starting unnecessary wars.

[Dale]

Just so long as you vote, it doesn't matter who you vote for.

But this is one of the problems with democracy. "It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you do it", would not pass muster in any other area of life. But I agree that this is a deeply ingrained notion.

[Dale]

When I get permenant resident status in Canada, it won't matter. Besides, after I'm gone I hope they bring back the draft. It will teach the younger generation a lesson to get out and vote against Bush for starting unnecessary wars.

Yes, I see what you mean. It's getting bad. I've heard certain herbal teas have a calming effect.

[BrandonTO416]

And I also hear certain countries offer more freedom then the USA.

More freedom to choose who you marry, more freedom to smoke pot should you decide to, more freedom to choose any doctor nationwide in any hospital you choose.

That country for me is Canada.

And you know what - I'm embarrassed as an American that other countries now enjoy more freedom then we do.

BTW, don't pull the tax argument. Taxes in Canada aren't that high.

[wolfdawg54]

Well, we will see how it pans out. Right now, I don't know.

[Dale]

And I also hear certain countries offer more freedom then the USA.

More freedom to choose who you marry, more freedom to smoke pot should you decide to, more freedom to choose any doctor nationwide in any hospital you choose.

That country for me is Canada.

And you know what - I'm embarrassed as an American that other countries now enjoy more freedom then we do.

BTW, don't pull the tax argument. Taxes in Canada aren't that high.

I'm hearing that the medical system in Canada is just atrocious.

But, yes, there is the glorious freedom to engage in that noblest of human endeavors - smoking pot.

[BrandonTO416]

I don't smoke pot, I just think our ludicrious laws here contribute to as many problems as it solves them.

And you hear the system in Canada is atrocious because you choose to listen to select cases that are out of the norm because you are ideologically opposed to the kind of system Canada has, rather then looking at the overall system. I'm not ideologically opposed to the US style healthcare system, I think its just proven that its failed millions of people who work and receive no care. Do I think we need revolutionary change? No, not quite. But we do need to alter our system greatly. We need an evolutionary change that cuts out the paperwork, insurance filing scams, and provides more services for less cost to more people.

Our system is quite "atrocious" because millions go without any proper care at all, and others that do have care must pay far more then they need to due to the red tape and price gouging within the system. Our system is "atrocious" in that you can't just walk into any hospital or doctors office and be covered. Millions of Americans that actually have insurance are on HMO's - strictly controlled systems that dictate which doctors and hospitals you must go to in order to recieve care. Its far more dictatorial then the free choice the Canadian system allows.

I don't pretend to make the case that everything is fine and dandy with Canadian healthcare - they have problems. They are working on their problems quite well. Our problems are actually more serious in comparison.

The most overplayed joke Americans use against the Canadian system is the case of the MRI availability, people who have to die waiting for major life saving surgery for a very rare disease, or something of this nature. Its a joke when we have many more people dying under our system because the service isn't available for whatever reason. I'm not talking just actual numbers, I'm talking per capita as well.

[Dale]

True, I do not share your idealogical position on healthcare. I do oppose socailized medicine.

[BrandonTO416]

Do remember everyone has a different definition of socialism - or for that matter other political terms.

Some Canadians think they have socialized medicine and proudly say so. However in reality, if you compare it to the term that we tend to think of what socialism stands for, it isn't socialist at all. Some people consider socialism to be more democratic rather then our dictatorial definition here in the USA.

Canadian doctors are individual business owners - NOT government employees. They just file insurance claims with the Canadian Medicare insurance program. What that program doesn't cover you still have to pay for private insurance. But it tends to be for things like Dental care and etc.. So it isn't a big deal.

If the system were really "socialized" like so many Americans view the word - the doctors would be government employees and they'd be under strict rules dictating what patients they see.

That's not what the Canadian system is like at all.

A matter of fact, in Toronto some years ago - i was told this on a walking tour when we passed in front of the old building - a totally private hospital opened to try and "compete" with the Medicare system. They had a special insurance system and didn't accept Medicare patients from what I was told. It was 100% private - nothing kept them from operating. They eventually closed and the owner fled back to the USA stealing some money I think. As you probably imagine, the totally private hospital ended up to be a huge failure and even the richest Canadians in Toronto didn't bother going there to get care to keep it up. I think that speaks well for their system - it doesn't limit competition, and it has proven that it works better then a hodgepodge of private insurers picking and choosing who they give coverage to.

The way the Health Canada Act works is if you accept payment from Medicare, you can't allow other private insurance companies to offer services for the same health service. This is to keep costs down. But you can open up a separate hospital and do it totally private with private funding from ground up - and private insurance. You just have to file with the gov't and open it as any business would.

Remember to think reasonably before thinking along ideological lines. Socialism is just a word - it can be misused and misinterpreted - *especially* between international borders.

The USA has a more dictated form of healthcare. There are strict limitations for many of those who actually do have insurance on who they are able to see like I mentioned /w the HMO situation before, for example.

In Canada, they have world class health research centers and high tech hospitals in the major cities - particularly Toronto. They also have some really crappy hospitals in the rural areas (a large area of the country considering its population).

Its no different here - we have some of the crappiest care in isolated small towns of the USA. Then we have world reknowned research centers of excellence in various locations.

The thing is - you can take things out of context when speaking of Canada and say "hey, their system is a failure because it doesn't produce as many life saving innovations."

Well again - its a nation of 30 million people. Not exactly a good comparison - until you realize Canada has as many, if not more medical innovations per capita. You may be surprised to hear this - but there are certain medical procedures that are available up there that AREN'T available here. Particularly some scientific research going on in research labs.

Last year during the SARS crisis, our FDA and research centers started looking for a cure ASAP because it was an international crisis. Guess what? It wasn't the FDA that mapped the virus first - it was a lab in Vancouver. LOL While mapping the virus didn't create a cure - it was the first step towards getting to one. Now that SARS isn't an immediate threat anymore, they probably haven't put many resources into it.

And if our government outlaws certain types of research - such as embyonic cell research - then we may find ourselves in a bind and yielding to other nations for that particular technology as well.

[BrandonTO416]

I take back everything I said. I support John Kerry 100%.

Sometimes you have a day or two each month where everything feels impossible....

[Dale]

I take back everything I said. I support John Kerry 100%.

Sometimes you have a day or two each month where everything feels impossible....

So the natural order of the universe is restored.

[kota16]

So the natural order of the universe is restored.

Earlier this week an ABC Australian investigative program called '4 Corners' did a story on the costs of medical in USA. Senior citizens on some medications who paid $2000 a year for supplies, were able to drive over to Canada if they lived close to the border, and get the same for $500. The free trade agreement between USA and Australia. which had passed and been signed by Bush, appeared that it may not pass the upper house, and the Australian Government has been forced to alter adopt the opposition position on healthcare pricing, to get the agreement passed in Australia. This will ensure that USA drug companies do not determine the price of Australian drugs. After reading what some of the posters to the forum have to say, it is like dog eat dog. Some time back on SSC forum a thread was done about which country was better liked, USA or Canada. And yes, Canada came out the winner.So the natural order of the universe would like to see a 'regime change' in Washington.

[Dale]

There will be no regime change. Perhaps the person, but not the program. Today John Kerry stated that he would have gone to war in Iraq even if he knew that WMD would never be found.

Now tell me again why the world much prefers John Kerry ?