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i would be interested to hear other comments about the Novare buildings in Atlanta.  they look incredible (links from their website at novaregroup.com).  the pricing implied in doug's article is seriously below trademark and the amenities describing the condo interiors seem just as good ("very high finishes ... these aren't lofts," - from article), although I would guess they are more homogeneous.  the building amenities will be better than trademark - but surely association fees will be higher.  it would crush buyers in trademark (myself included) if Novare really comes in at $30-$40 psf cheaper.

trademark started at around 285 psf on the low floor up to 350 for the same floorplan high in the sky.

Article implies Novare:  240 - 260 psf.  the way its worded it sounds like that is a cap, but i can't believe it.  Eclipse and Metropolis in Atlanta though are this cheap.

its got me worried.  either way great news for charlotte to see this building.  please send comments on the Novare buildings, strategy, and pricing if you have any information.  thanks.

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I believe that the article said this:

"One-bedroom units will range from about 700 to about 850 square feet and sell from the $170,000s to the $230,000s.

Two-bedroom units will range from just under 1,100 to slightly less than 1,300 square feet and sell from the $260,000s to $320,000s."

I had the initial impression that you did, that a top floor, 1,300 square foot unit would only be $320,000. But, that would be pretty silly and way too generous of a deal. I think it is just poor writing by Doug Smith wherein the "range from" would apply to the unit size, but not the cost of the units for the overall building. I would guess these are quotes for the first residential floor. Otherwise, you'd have the bizarre result of the largest units at 1,300 square feet costing signficantly less per square foot (even on the top floor) than the smallest unit on the first residential floor. There would be this kind of crazy rush for the top floors and no one wanting to buy the lower floors because they would think they were getting the shaft.

All that being said, it looks like the price per square foot is closer to what Courtside is being sold at. But, I think that Trademark has a lot better location. In fact, depending upon how the Arena turns out, I think Courtside might have a better location too.

As a consolation, you could always look at the Park which is $300 per square foot on up, or the Ratcliff which is $400 per square foot on up.

Finally, remember that concrete prices have been on the rise, so that limits how low Novare could go and still make a profit. Seems like they like to undersell the averge by just a smidge to keep inventory moving.

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Well.....Novare doesn't give you a choice on interiors......half the units have one set of finishing, the other half have another....so this lack of choices equals bulk purchasing (since they use the same suppliers in all of their towers) Also, the buildings are all relatively the same, so again, economies of scale in cost benefit them.....

Also, what isn't mentioned is that there will be penthouse units in this building occupying the top several floors, so they will definetly be the money makers.

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I have to believe you basically get what you pay for most of the the time.  Since the demand in Uptown is there and assuming relative similarities in quality, why on earth would Novare leave money on the table by pricing theirs at $240-260 a foot when Trademark is $285-350 and 230 S. Tryon is a shade under $400?  Most developers are not in the charity business.

Doesn't make sense, unless Novare's prices are just teasers and not real.  If they are real, the only other viable explanation would be cheaper development costs, i.e. a lesser quality product.

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Although it may end up being the case that they are really as cheap as it seemed in the article... is it possible that novare prices this way to create a NEW market by competing against suburban prices rather than pricing similarly to other downtown properties? Maybe they decide on the pricepoint to bring people downtown from the suburbs, build a larger building to gain economies of scale, allow few options to maximize purchasing power for materials, and chose lowerscale materials like hollow doors to save on weight in an area that less prominently figures into the value equation. (my place has hollow doors, and i never noticed until i saw that solid doors exist when i was walking around homedepot)

again, i'm not sure that the prices are as low as they seem, but i think it makes sense as a business model to go upscale on somethings and lower scale on other things in order to make prices cheap enough to lure higher numbers of suburban folks. Note that suburbia exists for most people because of lower cost, even if that means lower quality.

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it seems that Novare has an interesting business model where they build, market, re-sell, lease to retail, and manage the property. its a pretty slick operation where they likely profit beyond the original development and sale. i think they will come in pretty cheap compared to what we have seen lately and make additional money by maintaining a full property. I agree developers don't leave money on the table for nothing... but i also think the recent increase in prices in the uptown buildings have more to do with excessive demand as opposed to construction costs... Novare could change that supply issue with a couple of these.

the appeal of Novare has to be the amenities the whole building shares.... these are plasma TVs w/interactive artwork, large pools, multiple fitness rooms, theater room, and larger club rooms - and this is paid for with HOA. there is a unit for sale at eclipse (no square footage shown) in atlanta that is at max 1427sf and could be closer to 1200 -- the association fees are $470 a month. it is very interesting information that they do not give you a choice on interior... i had that impression but didn't know details.... do you know if it is absolutely no changes to flooring etc.? i am sure there are some upgrades. having said that, i think it will be a very cool place to live, and their interior styling is pretty good, their fixtures look pretty good quality in pictures anyway.

E7 i had the same thought about the starting prices in the article: what "sell from the..." meant. I am sure Novare is not commenting to potential buyers yet.

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Well.....Novare doesn't give you a choice on interiors......half the units have one set of finishing, the other half have another....so this lack of choices  equals bulk purchasing (since they use the same suppliers in all of their towers)  Also, the buildings are all relatively the same, so again, economies of scale in cost benefit them.....

Also, what isn't mentioned is that there will be penthouse units in this building occupying the top several floors, so they will definetly be the money makers.

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Ah, so it is a bit of a marketing trick like what the Park is trying to pull. They can advertise the lower costing ones because they're sandwiched in between leaseable commercial space and parking garages on the bottom and high-end units on the top. So, it is only a very narrow range of condos that will have this pricing and in essence these are "teaser" rates. Also, the downgraded materials and whatnot probably will have an effect on people are willing to pay in resale value.

As long as there aren't a ton of speculative "flippers" we'll probably be okay. This might be a situation where these buildings, due to the additional retail space and enrichment of the cachet of living uptown, actually benefit existing condo owners instead of providing competition for resales.

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I didn't mean to imply a lot of penthouses....maybe 3-4 floors plus 8-9 floors of parking/retail......so still at least 25 floors of units at the Doug reported prices.....

I do like this project for a couple reasons...the obvious one is the sheer height....seconly it helps fill a large gap between Carillon and the rest of the skyline when looking Northeast-Southwest.....third is it makes uptown affordable to younger buyers who would otherwise be looking in the Ballantyne area.

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I didn't mean to imply a lot of penthouses....maybe 3-4 floors plus 8-9 floors of parking/retail......so still at least 25 floors of units at the Doug reported prices.....

I do like this project for a couple reasons...the obvious one is the sheer height....seconly it helps fill a large gap between Carillon and the rest of the skyline when looking Northeast-Southwest.....third is it makes uptown affordable to younger buyers who would otherwise be looking in the Ballantyne area.

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Well, I agree those are all cool and important, there is just a concern by some (including myself), that pricing pressure would put a damper on value appreciation, or even cause a loss, in existing condos. I think that part of the reason people want to be Uptown so badly is the perception that they can get in on the ground floor of something that is going to be a good investment. Undercut it too badly with existing construction, especially with someone like Novarre who is self financing, and that momentum could be lost.

But, I marvel sometimes at the different costs of neighborhoods that are right next to each other, so I guess this variation wouldn't be anything new. As long as there isn't too much speculation...

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Well......I don't mean to be negative.....but high-rise condo resale in Atlanta is terrible, espeically in the Midtown market at the moment....primarly because of Novare.....they are perceived to be an endless inventory of low-cost decent grade units and their new stuff doesn't really increase in price as what they were selling a couple of years ago. Of course Atlanta has a lot more land available for this kind of development, and downtown Charlotte land is fairly expensive and will continue to rise.

I don't suspect we will see any depreciation on other units, but I do think that developers will have to somehow create tangible value to justify why their building should be priced higher (i.e. doorman, common area opulence, signature retail tenants, etc)

An idea I just had, though I'm not sure how well it would work is to give away maybe 2 units per building to celebrities (Charlotte Bobcats, Nelly, NASCAR drivers, etc.....) This gives a building star appeal and alone could justify higher per square foot costs (of course you'd have to make sure they couldn't sell the unit for at least 2-3 years).

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i think the danger of depreciation is low for most charlotte units which are different from Novare and their target owners... but those that look similar to Novare except for the plasma tvs and concierge and brilliant lobby and big club rooms should look out (that is me and trademark). As a promoter of uptown charlotte, I am welcoming Novare regardless.

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I don't suspect we will see any depreciation on other units, but I do think that developers will have to somehow create tangible value to justify why their building should be priced higher (i.e. doorman, common area opulence, signature retail tenants, etc)

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And so the "tiering" of condo buildings shall begin. It will be interesting to see how the perception of the renderings and amenity packages are similar to or differ from reality, which will ultimately determine what price band they fall into for resale.

An idea I just had, though I'm not sure how well it would work is to give away maybe 2 units per building to celebrities (Charlotte Bobcats, Nelly, NASCAR drivers, etc.....) This gives a building star appeal and alone could justify higher per square foot costs (of course you'd have to make sure they couldn't sell the unit for at least 2-3 years).

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Good idea. By the way, I was looking at a place for sale in the Iveys for a buddy of mine and found John Fox's name on the tenant roster. And from what I've heard, a lot of the Panthers live in the Arlington and I hear Jeff Gordon and Bob Johnson have pads in the Ratcliffe.

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Is it possible that novare sells the units at a slight discount, and then makes back and profits more on the perpetuity of management fees baked into the higher than average HOA dues?

As people buy, they look at cashflow... the high HOA dues would be a damper for values of the novare units, but furman owners might have been value because their hoa dues are lower.

Is this possible? I'm just trying to make sense of how this works out for them...

On the other comments:

U/L: you are SO right... this is all so unreal considering the drought we were all seeing a few years ago. Everything seemed to be falling through then. Now, not only are we getting amazing announcements, but stuff is actually happening this time.

ATLVR: I think that is a great idea. I think the Blvd project at church and 11th did something like that by getting artists in there at reduced prices through the McColl Center for Arts. They used it heavily for marketing. I think it would be a great idea for local celebrities, too... but honestly those are the people with the big bucks to afford the penthouses, so they can't give away their profit centers too much. star power hasn't helped the arlington, but i think it does help ratcliffe. Every time i pass that building with out of town guests, i mention the names that live there, and i'm sure it makes people assume really good things about the project.

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  Is it widely known which buildings are premium buildings and what builders are holes?

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For the most part, yes. But the prices that even the holes are fetching now is sickening, not to mention that you'll be paying over $1.00 psf for HOA dues (thank you, union labor!) Much of this is a product of post-WWII rent control laws that have led to a chronic housing shortage in NYC. And because the demand is so strong at the middle and lower end, there is virtually no affordable product left. Truly, you must be willing to venture into the more blighted neighborhoods and pray for gentrification.

Funny though, I recall in the early 90s when people were scared to death to own real estate in NYC. And those who did couldn't sell...I had a friend who had his place on the market for almost 2 years. My how times have changed.

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I need to be an NYC doorman!!! I had a feeling about all those things you said would be true....it's just so hard to consider how much for your money you get here.....that's why I laugh when people say how expensive it is to live in downtown........not only are we a LOT cheaper than most cities, but most our buildings are new and have premium features.....granite countertops, central air and heating, pools......I don't believe these things are expected for any mid-priced units in the biggest cities, especially not in the older buildings.

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Yep, when my friends come down here to visit from NYC, they simply cannot believe what you can get for your money here. Both in terms of houses in the suburbs and condos in the city. And all those premium features you talk about...never standard there, unless you're moving into something like the new Time Warner Center.

Oh, I also forgot to mention that if you keep a car in NY, you're gonna have to shell out $400+ a month to garage it! :cry:

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Just saw a listing for a Courtside condo go up on the Bissell Hayes website. MLS 503206 I think and it's selling for like $265 per square foot, one of the small, 1br 1b places.

I thought that you can't sell a unit until you close on it, it is in the contract. Unless, perhaps, it is being sold by Blvd Centro?

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Yeah, I dont think you can flip a unit pre-completion.

Maybe it's a unit that came back into Blvd centro's hands because the buyer backed out and walked away from their downpayment.

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I just learned that Blvd Centro caught them trying to sell it and they had to take it down. No dry sales at Courtside.

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