Greenville Transit

[mallguy]

The $1.3B was for new construction. The $8+B for transit (in an American Public Transit Association press release- why would that organization flaunt amounts spent on roads?) includes new construction and other capital and other programs for mass transit. The federal DOT spends a lot more than $8B on roads, aviation, etc. but those programs are in addition to the $8B.

One thing that Greenville will need to consider is whether or not any transit system for which it seeks federal funding would meet the criteria required for federal dollars. There are certain formulae, which Bush unfortunately tightened, that are cost/benefit calculations that must be met. In general, ridership and other economic development benefits must be sufficiently large, in comparison to the amounts invested, to make the investment eligible for federal dollars. Raleigh-Durham and some other systems didn't have sufficient returns per dollar invested to make them eligible for federal investment. The south corridor line in Charlotte did, in part because the ridership would be good and the line would sufficiently impact real estate development to result in significant benefits to the community. Greenville should learn from this- a successful transit system would probably require federal investment, but to get that investment, land use planning would need to be integrated with the transit system so that ridership would suffice.

If this isn't on point enough for the Greenville forum, my apologies; I am fine with moving this elsewhere.

Edited September 5, 2006 by mallguy

[Spartan]

Despite the current administration's issues, the fed in general is starting to improve with regards to mass transit. They are slowly tacking on more and more requirements and money to SAFETEA-LU for public transit and it is tied in with the environment thorugh the EPA/Clean Air Act. Many might argue that its not enough, but it is moving in the right direction nonetheless.

[LuvSC]

I haven't kept up with the conversation here, so forgive me if this is old news. But I found this Gville News article very interesting, especially paragraph five.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....EWS01/309100003

[RestedTraveler]

I haven't kept up with the conversation here, so forgive me if this is old news. But I found this Gville News article very interesting, especially paragraph five.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....EWS01/309100003

All I get from that link is "Error 404"

[LuvSC]

All I get from that link is "Error 404"

Sorry. Let me try again.

http://yourupstate.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...5/YOURUPSTATE10

[maninthepark]

Iknow some of you did'nt like the Taxi 2000 idea,but this is kind of what I had in mind.

Edited September 20, 2006 by maninthepark

[GSP Tiger]

Iknow some of you did'nt like the Taxi 2000 idea,but this is kind of what I had in mind.

The map gravely perplexes my mind...

It looks like roads in red are ones that can use improvements. I would suggest working on Lowndes Hill/Woods Lake/Woods Crossing/Congaree and Halton roads to four lanes arteries. The Lowndes Hill/Woods Lake/Woods Crossing/Congaree roads corridor will eventually link with the planned West Washington Street extention to North Pleasantburg Drive.

The rail line needs to be improved or replaced to accomodate rail transit. Stations would have to be centered in greatly populated residential/commercial districts.

I doubt new interhchanges for Villa Road and Patewood Drive at I-385 woumd improve the traffic situation. Patewood Drive was built to relieve the early 1990s traffic problems on Haywood Road. I'm still aiting for someone with intelligence to redo the Haywood and Roper Mountain roads exits to SPUIs.

[RestedTraveler]

Here's some lousy news...

[linkerjpatrick]

The map gravely perplexes my mind...

It looks like roads in red are ones that can use improvements. I would suggest working on Lowndes Hill/Woods Lake/Woods Crossing/Congaree and Halton roads to four lanes arteries.

Shhh... don't give them any ideas. That's my "shortcut" road from the west greenville area to Haywood Road. It's the natives "385". Yeah it takes a bit longer time but it's less of a headache.

[DT-Gville]

Here's some lousy news...

with an estimated 900,000 passengers so far this calendar year, many of them to their jobs, White said. If the bus service is curtailed by 40 percent, employers will feel much of the pain, he said.

Gee, I imagine the EMPLOYEES will also feel the pain since they'll have problems getting to work...

[interestedexpat]

Here's some lousy news...

So 900,000 passengers times 40% = 360,000 people affected. A conservative estimate then would be that there are 250,000 less cars on the roads ways because of the full functioning bus system. I wonder how much the city and county would spend on repairing a bridge that carried 250,000 cars a day?

Edited September 28, 2006 by interestedexpat

[RestedTraveler]

I think the 900,000 passengers is for the year, not per day.

[dpa]

This yields some interesting figures:

GTA runs 11 routes through an average of 22 trips, 6 days a week. That's 264 trips per operating day, and, adjusting for non-operating holidays, about 81,000 trips a year.

Average GTA loop length (out and back) is 17 miles, so trip length (out or back) is 8.5 mi.

A million passenger-boardings spread through 81,000 trips is 12 passengers per trip. Average (nationwide) city bus passenger trip length is 2.2 miles, and if Greenville passengers are similar, a GTA bus, at a given moment, has an average of about 3 riders. That number also passes a gut check - it is reasonably similar to what I observe when in Greenville.

At the same time, a million passenger-boardings yields about 1600 round-trips per operating day. Assuming most trips are round trips and that one-way passengers and more-than-one-round-trip-per-day passengers roughly balance each other out (I'm guessing, but that seems plausible), GTA serves about 1600 individuals a day. If the average "regular" GTA rider makes 2-3 trips a week, there are something like 2400 to 3600 regular users of the system. That also seems plausible. By way of comparison, Jesse Jackson townhomes has about 800 residents.

GTA's impact on traffic and the environment is likely to be, at this point, about zero. Given American city car trips carry an average of 1.4 passengers, we could suppose we were keeping about 1100 cars of the road per day, which is insignificant to traffic when reduced by the number of car-trip-equivalents the bus system itself adds to the road. Environmentally, it is also a wash: city bus fuel efficiency is about a third average city car efficiency (4-6 mpg vs. 15-17 mpg). Given ridership is only a little more than double private-car ridership, GTA's environmental impact is likely to be a net negative compared to the same trips being taken in cars, but not big in relative terms.

The GTA's present purpose, therefore, is unsuprisingly twofold. First, it provides limited transportation options (and therefore limited shopping and employment options) to a few people who cannot afford to drive themselves, are unable to drive themselves, or are not allowed to drive themselves. It is, in other words, a positive element of Greenville's rather stingy benevolence to the poor and infirm. It probably makes something like 1500 to 3000 Greenvillians' lives more livable - and these riders, 2-4% of the city's population, are likely to be among our most elderly and otherwise needy. By comparison, 16% of the city lives in poverty.

Second, the GTA is a placeholder for a future, more useful, transit system.

A fare increase or an assessment, or both, are in order. $1 is substantially less than the national average for city bus fares, and our tax assessments in Greenville are similarly low.

Not even NYC pays for its buses through fares, so any suggestion that increasing services would solve the revenue problem is unlikely, though service increases might solve other problems.

One opportunity, and a simple experiment, would be an east-west shuttle extending from Clemson to Spartanburg as follows:

Clemson U to Easley via 123

Easley to Furman via 123, 124, and 25

Furman to Downtown Greenville via 276

Greenville to Bob Jones via 29

Bob Jones to GSP via 29 and 14

GSP to Spartanburg and Converse via 85 and 29

and, of course, back around again.

The point is to connect the best unserved users of public transportation - business travelers and students - to the primary desired points: downtowns and the airport. Every 45 minutes during the day would probably suffice.

The trip for college students on the western leg would be fairly long, but college students are more tolerant of trip-length. Business travelers would be getting to go point-to-point faster than any choice other than a private car. A combination of funding sources (universities, etc.) would be available to the GTA for the service.

Obviously, you'd charge a special fare, maybe $7. Make it part of GTA, and you'd change both its image, and Greenville for the better. At least, worth a try.

Edited September 28, 2006 by dpa

[Spartan]

This yields some interesting figures:

GTA runs 11 routes through an average of 22 trips, 6 days a week. That's 264 trips per operating day, and, adjusting for non-operating holidays, about 81,000 trips a year.

Average GTA loop length (out and back) is 17 miles, so trip length (out or back) is 8.5 mi.

A million passenger-boardings spread through 81,000 trips is 12 passengers per trip. Average (nationwide) city bus passenger trip length is 2.2 miles, and if Greenville passengers are similar, a GTA bus, at a given moment, has an average of about 3 riders. That number also passes a gut check - it is reasonably similar to what I observe when in Greenville.

At the same time, a million passenger-boardings yields about 1600 round-trips per operating day. Assuming most trips are round trips and that one-way passengers and more-than-one-round-trip-per-day passengers roughly balance each other out (I'm guessing, but that seems plausible), GTA serves about 1600 individuals a day. If the average "regular" GTA rider makes 2-3 trips a week, there are something like 2400 to 3600 regular users of the system. That also seems plausible. By way of comparison, Jesse Jackson townhomes has about 800 residents.

GTA's impact on traffic and the environment is likely to be, at this point, about zero. Given American city car trips carry an average of 1.4 passengers, we could suppose we were keeping about 1100 cars of the road per day, which is insignificant to traffic when reduced by the number of car-trip-equivalents the bus system itself adds to the road. Environmentally, it is also a wash: city bus fuel efficiency is about a third average city car efficiency (4-6 mpg vs. 15-17 mpg). Given ridership is only a little more than double private-car ridership, GTA's environmental impact is likely to be a net negative compared to the same trips being taken in cars, but not big in relative terms.

The GTA's present purpose, therefore, is unsuprisingly twofold. First, it provides limited transportation options (and therefore limited shopping and employment options) to a few people who cannot afford to drive themselves, are unable to drive themselves, or are not allowed to drive themselves. It is, in other words, a positive element of Greenville's rather stingy benevolence to the poor and infirm. It probably makes something like 1500 to 3000 Greenvillians' lives more livable - and these riders, 2-4% of the city's population, are likely to be among our most elderly and otherwise needy. By comparison, 16% of the city lives in poverty.

Second, the GTA is a placeholder for a future, more useful, transit system.

A fare increase or an assessment, or both, are in order. $1 is substantially less than the national average for city bus fares, and our tax assessments in Greenville are similarly low.

Not even NYC pays for its buses through fares, so any suggestion that increasing services would solve the revenue problem is unlikely, though service increases might solve other problems.

One opportunity, and a simple experiment, would be an east-west shuttle extending from Clemson to Spartanburg as follows:

Clemson U to Easley via 123

Easley to Furman via 123, 124, and 25

Furman to Downtown Greenville via 276

Greenville to Bob Jones via 29

Bob Jones to GSP via 29 and 14

GSP to Spartanburg and Converse via 85 and 29

and, of course, back around again.

The point is to connect the best unserved users of public transportation - business travelers and students - to the primary desired points: downtowns and the airport. Every 45 minutes during the day would probably suffice.

The trip for college students on the western leg would be fairly long, but college students are more tolerant of trip-length. Business travelers would be getting to go point-to-point faster than any choice other than a private car. A combination of funding sources (universities, etc.) would be available to the GTA for the service.

Obviously, you'd charge a special fare, maybe $7. Make it part of GTA, and you'd change both its image, and Greenville for the better. At least, worth a try.

dpa- I like your thinking here, though I do think that there are some flaws.

When talking about transit, its important to know that "trips" generally means passenger trips, not bus trips.

According to the National Transit Database, on an average weekday, GTA had about 2,684 unlinked trips in 2004. Saturdays average 1,456 unlinked trips. There has been an increase in public transit use over the past couple of years due to higher gasoline prices that is not reflected in this data. Greenville is the ranks third in SC for annual passenger trips (fare based systems). Just barely 3rd. Spartanburg's SPARTA is a close 4th. I exclude Clemson because it is free, and heavily subsidized by students... you can't really compare it to other cities, but otherwise it is far and away the leader in the state. My point is that fora city the size of Greenville, it is very much underserved by transit, and that needs to be fixed.

Now, as for fares, they never pay for any transit system in the country. You can raise fares, but that will hurt ridership because in Greenville the riders are typically lower income people. Right now the city and county need to come together to pay for the system with some sort of sales tax. Probably a 1/4 cent tax on the dollar would go a long way.

People need to understand that transit systems don't pay for themselves directly, but they do pay for themselves in terms of what they contribute to the economy. They provide jobs, access to jobs, and access to shopping that many would not otherwise have. You can also think about it this way, if you are wiling to pay for roads, you should be willing to pay for transit.

The major problem is Greenville's density... or lack thereof. Greenville has its people and emplyoyees spread out way to far. Spartanburg and Anderson have the same problem. The Upstate as a region needs to figure out how to cluser them together in a way that makes transit more feasable.

I think that an Upstate college connecotr would not work because college students rarely need to go to other colleges. I'm thinking that as a student in Clemson, I w=probably wouldn't take the bus to Furman or Converse. And I probably wouldn't take it to or from Spartanbrug because it would take so long. CAT is looking at creating an express bus line to ICAR, once that gets going, and that could be relatively successful due to the success of the CATbus in general. I think that if a GTA bus showed up in Spartanburg, people would not support it. I would also argue that college students are the least tollerant of long distance trips because most of them in this area have their own cars, and can get there faster that way.

What you are thinking about is attracting choice riders- people who don't have to take public transit, but do so anyway. That is key to creating a successful transit system.

One idea that I have is for Greenville to take advantage of its biggest selling point... downtown. Offer routes that don't stop at 6 or 7 at night. Have routes that bring people from the outlying areas into downtown in the late afternoon and through the evening then have outbound routes late at night that runs until 3am or something. It will be key to have bus frequencies of at least a half hour, if not less. You could offer discounted trips or some sort of dining passes, etc. for those who use the bus to get downtown. Baseball games... events at the BiLo Center, the Peace Center, etc. could all concievably support the same thing.

--

On a separate note, I posed this question in the Columbia thread similar to this one:

It strikes me that so many of us advocate an excellent transit system as a necessity for our cities... for everyone else. Just out of curiosity, how many of you that live, or have lived, in Greenville have used the GTA bus to get around town for any reason? If so, what is your reasoning for it? If not, why not? What woudl it take for you to ride the bus?

I have never lived in Greenville, though I do work there, and the place that I work is not served by the bus, and even if it was, I live in Clemson, which is not connected via transit of any sort to Greenville.

[interestedexpat]

I think the 900,000 passengers is for the year, not per day.

Thanks. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I was being a bit sarcastic.

I'm all for public transportation, but G'ville doesn't have the density to need it or make it worthwhile. You'd need 365 times the number of current riders to make it a priority. (My attempted point in the above post.)

I know transit systems never pay for themselves. They do have substantial residual benefits.

But dpa's post hits the nail on the head. If GTA buses average 3 riders per trip (which I think is possible given personal observation), it's a huge waste of money. Perhaps GTA could consider a minivan service or something like that. In my humble opinion G'ville is 20 or 30 years from the density and traffic that will be necessary to create conditions under which a substantial population (enough to make the residual benefits outweight the public cost) to make the public bus system really work. Anderson and Spartanburg are further off than that.

The CAT does have potential. Not in college to college transit, but as a localized service to Clemson students. Around Clemson town and to ICAR if there is student need. A stop in downtown G'ville might make sense, although I don't see many students opting for the bus over their personal vehicles when going out on Friday/Saturday night.

[mallguy]

So GTA has minimal environmental or economic impact- so basically it's a charity for the carless. So I propose the following:

If fare revenues are only a small fraction of GTA's expenses, then just make the system fare-freee. That wouldn't cost government much more than it's currently spending and it would probably result in a significant increase in ridership and would help some of the very poor quite a bit; a bus fare can be a big chunk of change for someone who is just barely scraping by.

[dpa]

...If GTA buses average 3 riders per trip (which I think is possible...

I wouldn't take my napkin math too seriously, but my numbers would indicate 3 riders on each bus, on average, at any given moment, not over the whole route.

[dpa]

One thing about the east-west shuttle notion: it would be, essentially, an Airport shuttle. The point wouldn't be primarily to link the campuses to each other, or even to downtown, but to connect the campuses and the downtowns to the airport (and secondarily, to the bus terminals downtown). It's true that Furman and Converse students are fairly likely to have cars, but our two more international, less expensive, schools - Clemson and Bob Jones - have a high percentage of students without cars. Clemson, in addition, is a significant origin/destination for GSP traffic, as are, the downtowns, center for business travelers who might not otherwise need or want a rental car.

Just as important as who is served, though, is that the schools, and perhaps even the downtown hotels, might defray the operating costs of such a service.

All that said, I don't know if it would work, or even be a good idea. Only a thought.

Edited October 3, 2006 by dpa

[whitehourseview]

How often would students fly out of GSP? Twice? Three times a year? Most students can get a ride with someone.

I don't know if there is enough GSP traffic to justify that kind of expense.

[dpa]

sounds right. likely too little traffic to justify the effort.

[GvilleSC]

How often would students fly out of GSP? Twice? Three times a year? Most students can get a ride with someone.

I don't know if there is enough GSP traffic to justify that kind of expense.

Moving in (maybe), Fall Break, Thanksgiving Break, Christmas Break, Spring Break, End of year. Heavy traffic at certain times.

[Spartan]

One thing about the east-west shuttle notion: it would be, essentially, an Airport shuttle. The point wouldn't be primarily to link the campuses to each other, or even to downtown, but to connect the campuses and the downtowns to the airport (and secondarily, to the bus terminals downtown). It's true that Furman and Converse students are fairly likely to have cars, but our two more international, less expensive, schools - Clemson and Bob Jones - have a high percentage of students without cars. Clemson, in addition, is a significant origin/destination for GSP traffic, as are, the downtowns, center for business travelers who might not otherwise need or want a rental car.

Just as important as who is served, though, is that the schools, and perhaps even the downtown hotels, might defray the operating costs of such a service.

All that said, I don't know if it would work, or even be a good idea. Only a thought.

I would qualify that by saying a higher percentage of people without cars. Most people who go to Clemson have cars to get around. Clemson, however, has a fair number of foriegn students who don't have cars. I would argue that they make up the majority of carless people in this area. Bob Jones I have no explanation for. Many students, with or without cars, use Atlanta or Charlotte for their travels too.... It would be interesting to see if a route to GSP would work. I don't personally think there is that much traffic to warrant it.

[interestedexpat]

To add to the point about students not really flying that much...most live within driving distance. All our local schools have a high percentage of students who live within a 2 hr drive. (I confess I don't really know about Bob Jones.)

I actually like the proposal of just making the system free. That would substantially help the people currently being helped. It might promote ridership. "Free" might actually get me on the bus. And (as noted) the current fare collection is a drop in the bucket. Less than 1 million per year in revenue.

[Greenville]

To add to the point about students not really flying that much...most live within driving distance. All our local schools have a high percentage of students who live within a 2 hr drive. (I confess I don't really know about Bob Jones.)

I actually like the proposal of just making the system free. That would substantially help the people currently being helped. It might promote ridership. "Free" might actually get me on the bus. And (as noted) the current fare collection is a drop in the bucket. Less than 1 million per year in revenue.

Perhaps many of Bob Jones' students are from within a 2 hour radius, but there are many Clemson students who are not from within a 2 hour drive. There are students from every state and more than 70 countries. Here is a link to a map:

http://www.clemson.edu/admission/community/demographics.htm

For many years, Clemson has kept a 65/35 ratio of student from SC and those not from SC. This has remained constant in recent years as Clemson has climbed in the US News rankings as well.

With that said, I still do not think there is a consistent demand for Clemson students to ride public transportation to GSP International. I can definitely see such a route being used around holidays, though, when students have time to fly home.

Aside from transport to GSP, I definitely think there is demand for a shuttle from Clemson to downtown Greenville. If a CAT bus or GTA bus would make regular stops at a central location on campus, shuttle students to downtown Greenville on the weekends, and run regularly until 3:00 AM or so I think it would work well. Sure, some would rather drive to downtown Greenville, but plenty would prefer to ride the bus so they can drink and party more while in Greenville and not worry about driving home (or using their own gas). Charging students $3-$5 for such a route would not be bad, would it?

[whitehourseview]

To add to the point about students not really flying that much...most live within driving distance. All our local schools have a high percentage of students who live within a 2 hr drive. (I confess I don't really know about Bob Jones.)

According to their website, BJU has students from all 50 states and 43 foreign countries.

But they do have bus services for students to the major shopping areas of town, and pick up and drop off services to GSP as well